The Ultimate Pair build

Nice!! congrats.

John makes excellent drivers and PR's, so you will be happy. I assume the AE15 is basically an AV15 with a paper cone instead of aluminum?

ah the good ol' days:

N8, what did you figure out for mains? I know that was one of your other questions from that thread back in the day.

John is also creating some pretty capable MTM's with his lambda drivers and neopro5i tweeter.

I think he is doing John's MTM's with the TD10's and Neo5Pro ribbon. I just checked John's site, the crossover's are coming along very nicely, not much money for them either, about $32 per speaker right now, much cheaper than a lot of the stuff on HTGuide where you pay as much for the crossover as you do for the drivers.


Edit*** why not do all the same speakers? Thats the best way to get them voice matched and plenty of output all around, if you had a pair of the PSB platinums, it seems that money isn't too much a stretch.

Well you aren't going to get very capable surrounds if they need to hung on or in the wall, yes you can get decent ones, but nothing that will come close to hanging with those mains, nothing that I know of at least. This is a dedicated theater right?

So two ten's are not enough for midbass! Are you related to TheEAR?
You know, you could always stick with John's MTM, modify the crossover and add one or two TD15x's and create a massive 3way speaker. As it is, they're kind of a 3way design right now since they have to be XO'd to a sub at 50hz.

*edit* I called John yesterday asking about prices on his MTM's but he never called me back. If for whatever reason he let's you know how much they cost, send me a PM.

I understand what you are saying nate, I was picturing something a little different for your build as well, I just don't think your gonna find what your looking for anywhere else. Jon's design really is unique to the DIY community, far higher output than the designs we are used to seeing around here. That ribbon is a nice driver, but it will still be the thing holding you back in the end, not the woofers, TRUST ME. You are crossing these over to subs in the 50-80Hz region, you will be amazed at the midbass punch these deliver.

Well I know one of the reasons he went with 2 TD10m's was to try and match the sensitivity of the neopro5i. Going with two as opposed to one, gained 6db in sensitivity. 3db with doubling the woofers and another 3db by doubling the power (going from an 8ohm load to a 4ohm).

John did mention about the TD15's having excellent upper end extension. You could do his dual TD15x with a BMC coaxial compression driver and a wide dispersion horn if you want more midbass and also output.

That was how he matched the sensitivity yes, however, if you really wanna get into output, 1 TD10m does more than a Neopro5i, the fact that there are two TD10M's only strengthens this, remember though, the 6dB coupling doesn't occur through much of the TD10m's passband, it slowly goes down to 3dB gain at the upper end.

The TD15x/BMC coax is really a high powered design, I wouldn't do this in an ordinary home theater, maybe a VERRRY large one, about 1000 square feet or more, though those speakers can really do a few thousand square feet of theater.

Why's that?

Me thinks a lot of you are speculating on how much output is "a lot" without much correlation to real devices you've listened to.

The other reality is the efforts required in either construction or crossover design. Going active sounds easy, but you still have to measure the system and to get good results takes EQ and HP/LP, and sometimes delay. Of course my expectations are obviously much higher than many in the business, as many commercial hi-fi offerings are evidence of.

The passive 2 way John is working on is a smart design for DIYers. I may lend a hand with a powered, complete speaker more for studio use, but the passive version should be a very nice option for DIYers looking for something more dynamic and powerful than the common fare.

The BMS coaxial driver is quite interesting to play with, but it costs more than 2 of the AE TD woofers itself! A passive crossover for such a system is also not for the faint of heart, where active is really the way to go. I know if I use it in a finished design, the speaker is likely to be a $5-10k each. Taller, carefully executed columns of tweeters become more attractive when you get to that level unless you are space/size limited.

In the end there are many ways and oppinions as to how a high power main speaker should or can be executed. I'm a bit more agnostic, but John is supplying the custom variants of the TD woofers for the production version of my Catalysts. If you want the power handling and the linear operation, there are a limited number of off the shelf options, or you are stuck with large arrays of less capable drivers leaving you different sets of problems to deal with.

For reassurance just cross reference some of the excursion capabilities of common pro drivers that are supplying that "kick in the chest" at live shows. You'll find your right there. Having the dual 10's optimized for the mid to midbass region is far different game for output level when compared to a 10 being counted on for a full range extension approach.

So long as the face and mounting of the tweeter is very similar and the DSP the same, you can count on transferring settings and getting very good results. Different DSP's will have subtle, but clearly measurable differences between similar settings, but most will be plenty happy.

There are very few current consumer speakers that are even close to what I want in a pair of speakers. I hope to change that in the future, but I am in no way surprised that you find your PSB's lacking in dynamics, intensity, and composure at higher levels. This simply isn't something most consumer companies expect nor think desireable/needed in the market. As you have found, this also isn't easily achieved with off-the-shelf drivers or more common configurations.

There are some very good, very high efficiency, pro midranges, but that makes for a pretty big speaker, and the fidelity of the drivers is less well documented from a home audio perspective. Combine that with the fact that the drivers can be relatively expensive, it's a bit of a gamble to take, so someone will have to be the guinea pig willing to possibly write off the expense as experience if they decide on another route.

I think you need not worry... Perhaps it's time for a roadtrip to GBay to just hear it.

I'd be game to come along for the audition if you go the Mark way.

Ah some memories there I bet eh Sherv?

BTW your ASCII art sucks.

If you want to kick it up a notch...

Stick with 2 of the 10Ms in smaller sealed chambers and then put a pair of the TD15X/H/S drivers sealed as a stand under them. Of course you just added >$500 in drivers and another channel of amp & DSP per speaker while making the speaker BIG. The integration of the midbass and woofer sections is either done very simply or much more involved if you are picky about it. Most just ballpark match them up in room at a short distance or even the listening position, which is easy to do in an active crossover. Really doing it "right" is quite a bit more involved and tricky to measure, but not a requirement.

I'm not as artistic as you my friend!

I mentioned that in a previous post, but something I just thought of, adding 2 TD15's per channel, would pretty much negate the use of his subs he just accuired. I mean sure he could still use them to help with blending, but with 4, 15's in your front sound stage, two more 15" subwoofers becomes a bit unnecessary...depending on the room.

If going active, he could just build a three way with a single TD15x, 10m and fountek 5i or other highly capable tweeter.