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Hauppauge WinTV HD PVR (H.264) screenshot - Page 7

post #181 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHS View Post

Only MCE honor CGMS-A

Vista Media Center?

And what does this actually mean to me? All I want to do is basically time shift...record now, play later, pause, etc. All from the same box.

And all from within the VMC front end, using the Microsoft remote.
post #182 of 5196
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Vista Media Center?

And what does this actually mean to me? All I want to do is basically time shift...record now, play later, pause, etc. All from the same box.

And all from within the VMC front end, using the Microsoft remote.

MCE = VMC
What dose it mean to you with CGMS-A
No HBO recording or any other channel that have it ON.
post #183 of 5196
Your assuming...

a) HD-PVR support is coming from Microsoft
b) CGMS-A is actually being put on broadcasts by STBs
c) That when Hauppauage develops drivers they will respect CGMS-A.

So, with that in mind...

a) It's not coming from Microsoft, in fact I don't think they are providing a direct development path for such a tuner.
b) Are they?
c) Sure seems like it would be easy for them to ignore it.

Chris
post #184 of 5196
a) When MS adds support for it, you think they won't support it.
b) How many problems have we seen about CGMS-A from STBs with current cards, it would seem that boxes are outputting it now.
c) My impression is the card/drivers don't have to do anything special to support it, if they did, I wouldn't think it would work with current cards. Yet it does, so this leads me to believe it's buried in the audio or video data (like CC data).
post #185 of 5196
a) I don't see why Microsoft would support it. They have a model for supported tuner cards for Media Center. Component capture isn't on that list. I don't think you will see support coming from Microsoft. Hauppauage is going to get lucky that Microsoft is adding H.264 support in Media Center, I think the rest will be a backdoor hack on Hauppauage's part.

b) I don't think you have see any problems in Media Center with CGMS-A being output on Component. Does CGMS-A on S-Video = CGMS-A on Component? Again, I don't know.

c) I don't understand what you are saying here, but if your talking about CGMS-A then it's VBI. What "current cards" do I don't know, I've never owned a Component capture card. Of course, if Hauppauage is taking it upon them selves to hack support into Media Center, then why respect CGMS-A even if it is being output? It could also be striped in the H.264 encoding process.

The key thing here is that Media Center doesn't currently do anything with Component capture as well as nothing with H.264. Both of these would be new to Media Center, and it has not exactly been developed around either. H.264 support is coming, but we have no idea what that in tells from a development perspective. I highly doubt the HD-PVR can parade as a standard analog tuner to Media Center and work correctly, which means it is very likely Hauppauage is going to do something behind the scenes t have it work correctly.

Chris
post #186 of 5196
B: CGMS-A is definitely being put out by STBs. There have been numerous reports of recordings blocked, locked, or encrypted when Media Center records (or attempts to record) premium channels or even AMC at times from the composite or S-Video STB connections.

C: Hauppauge has never built any DRM into any of it's drivers yet. All restrictions have come from the recording software application - generally Media Center.

A: Media Center should treat the HD-PVR like it does any STB capture device. Pick channels from an EPG and use a Blaster to control the STB. In place of a typical hardware mpeg capture card it would use the HD-PVR. Support would only be needed in the form of an upgrade to recognise the HD-PVR the same way it recognises any new capture card and video decoders for playback/viewing. It's not recording "Component", it's recording a .ts stream and it may just record it the same way it records from the HDHomerun.

While many have speculated that there is no way to add CGMS-A to Component connections, I sure wouldn't bet the farm on it. If it can be added to composite video, then it can be present on component video. The "Y" cable contains standard video + sync, albeit at potentially higher frequencies. A 'scope of the signal ought to look exactly like Composite luminance, just at a different horizontal range setting.

This might actually be partially testable.
Pick a channel sure to be restricted. (HBO?)
Set the STB to 480i output.
Connect the Y (Green) cable to the composite input of your capture card. (It'll be in Black and White)
Attempt to record with Media Center.

Whether any potential flag gets carried through when Component is converted to H264: I couldn't guess.
post #187 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod7501 View Post

B: CGMS-A is definitely being put out by STBs. There have been numerous reports of recordings blocked, locked, or encrypted when Media Center records (or attempts to record) premium channels or even AMC at times from the composite or S-Video STB connections.

I'm not questioning the existence of CGMS-A. I can tell you for a fact that some STBs output it and some remove it. This is present using Coax or S-Video (never tried Composite).

I'm questioning if CGMS-A is output on Component from STBs. I really have no idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod7501 View Post

A: Media Center should treat the HD-PVR like it does any STB capture device. Pick channels from an EPG and use a Blaster to control the STB. In place of a typical hardware mpeg capture card it would use the HD-PVR. Support would only be needed in the form of an upgrade to recognise the HD-PVR the same way it recognises any new capture card and video decoders for playback/viewing. It's not recording "Component", it's recording a .ts stream and it may just record it the same way it records from the HDHomerun.

Do realize that HDHR is a hack, which kind of defines my overall point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod7501 View Post

While many have speculated that there is no way to add CGMS-A to Component connections, I sure wouldn't bet the farm on it. If it can be added to composite video, then it can be present on component video. The "Y" cable contains standard video + sync, albeit at potentially higher frequencies. A 'scope of the signal ought to look exactly like Composite luminance, just at a different horizontal range setting.

It's on VBI, so yes it can be on Component (or S-Video, or DVI, etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod7501 View Post

Whether any potential flag gets carried through when Component is converted to H264: I couldn't guess.

Right now I'm questioning this the most. VBI data is encoded into the video stream, but that original video stream is going to be decompressed (eg. raw) and then recompressed to H.264 while still in the HD-PVR (so before it gets to software).

Unless the HD-PVR is actually examining the video contents, I assume it would just disregard anything on VBI (which would include CGMS-A). Of course, if this is the case then closed captions wouldn't be possible using the HD-PVR.

If anyone knows anything about VBI I'd love to know.

Chris
post #188 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

Do realize that HDHR is a hack, which kind of defines my overall point.

Not when it's run in OTA mode. It's simply another ATSC tuner at that point with regular BDA drivers. Still streaming .ts in that mode too. The fact that it streams it over ethernet instead of a usb cable is not exactly something I would consider a "hack".
post #189 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

Not when it's run in OTA mode. It's simply another ATSC tuner at that point with regular BDA drivers. Still streaming .ts in that mode too. The fact that it streams it over ethernet instead of a usb cable is not exactly something I would consider a "hack".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what Chris is saying is the HDHR doesn't actually use a BDA driver, it's a hodgepodge that masks itself as a BDA driver to the software you're using. That's why you have (had?) to tinker with it for it to work with some apps like BeyondTV.
post #190 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by mindbender9 View Post

I apologize in advance for asking what seems to be a dumb question, but how exactly do you burn the video streams (*.ts format?) to a DVD?

I know that the unit comes with bundled software (ArcSoft TotalMedia Extreme), but how do you use it? Are you able to burn the video streams to a 4.7GB DVD?

Wow, that was more that one dumb question, wasn't it?

So does anyone know how to use this unit? All I want to do is burn video feeds from a SA8300HD DVR to a 4.7GB DVD. So how do you do this? Thanks!

Bump
post #191 of 5196
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mindbender9 View Post

Bump

mindbender9 I made a reply go back to page 9 see the post I made
post #192 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

Not when it's run in OTA mode. It's simply another ATSC tuner at that point with regular BDA drivers. Still streaming .ts in that mode too. The fact that it streams it over ethernet instead of a usb cable is not exactly something I would consider a "hack".

Exactly. The HDHR certainly has a BDA driver, whether in ATSC mode or Digital cable mode. In fact all it is IS ATSC, to MC when you have an HDHR connected. Whether it's pulling direct ATSC, or using their channel mapping to pull content from digital cable, to MC, it's still ATSC and a perfectly valid BDA tuner/driver.

From Hauppage's perspective, what they "ideally" need to do is have a BDA driver, and if/when MC supports H.264, the card "should" work like any other tuner. Another thing to ponder is whether the card even needs to be recognized as "analog" or a digtal card. Once MC has H.264 support, there's no logical reason, the Hauppage card should be considered "analog". It can be a perfectly valid digital tuner card that supports h.264, the fact that it uses component capture as input should have no bearing on MC.

I believe, it will all boil down to Hauppage for writing the right drivers, and MC to support H.264.
post #193 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHS View Post

MCE = VMC
What dose it mean to you with CGMS-A
No HBO recording or any other channel that have it ON.

Not even a record once type?

If this is the case, then Hauppage is going to lose the lion's share of HTPC users.
post #194 of 5196
Thread Starter 
It not up to Hauppage they have fellow rule under MS guild line and well know law DMCA anti-circumvention provisions.
Quote:


Not even a record once type?

That all depend on the channel station boardcast which can be no copies, one copy, or unlimited.
post #195 of 5196
SHS: Do we know if the HD PVR supports closed captions?

Chris
post #196 of 5196
I don't think the Hauppauge will be required by law to honor CGMS, since it is not a DVD recorder, but like many have mentioned, if they want to get support for the device in MCE down the road, then they might have to.

If the hardware doesn't even support it, then they can't make a future version of their software support it, but if they build in support in the hardware, could they just enable it in a certain version of their software or some kind of update to make it work with MCE?

I wish this thing would ship already, getting antsy
post #197 of 5196
You can use videoredo to convert .ts to mpeg sometimes it works (720P) and does a good job and sometimes it sucks and tells me no stream(many but not all 1080i) found. nothing is 100% in this game...and everyone has a different program that they like for different reasons... best bet it to get trail download test it and buy it if you like it... now back to our regular topic
post #198 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHS View Post

mindbender9 I made a reply go back to page 9 see the post I made

Ah. Thank you for your assistance. I'll take a look at the Ulead software that you mentioned. I appreciate your help!
post #199 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Leisle View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what Chris is saying is the HDHR doesn't actually use a BDA driver, it's a hodgepodge that masks itself as a BDA driver to the software you're using. That's why you have (had?) to tinker with it for it to work with some apps like BeyondTV.

When it first came out there were no BDA drivers which is why developers were working on ways to get it working in the various apps. I worked on the GBPVR support myself. BDA drivers were released later. It is an actual BDA driver.

The "hack" (which is the wrong term since no MCE compiled files are modified) is that when tuning QAM, it remaps the channel to the 2-69 RF range since Media Center (and a couple others) will only tune in that range.

It also reencapsulates the stream to be ATSC compliant but that is because of other issues.

No tinkering is involved when tuning ATSC OTA. Much less tinkering is involved for QAM than there used to be.
post #200 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

SHS: Do we know if the HD PVR supports closed captions?

Chris

Got an answer from Hauppauge...

"At the moment the software doesn’t display or record the close caption data."

This would tell me that (currently??) they are not doing anything with VBI, so the CGMS-A data wouldn't even make it to the PC for interpretation by Media Center.

Interested what they mean by "at the moment" though. Implies that it might be able to read the VBI data (in relation to closed captions).

Chris
post #201 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

When it first came out there were no BDA drivers which is why developers were working on ways to get it working in the various apps. I worked on the GBPVR support myself. BDA drivers were released later. It is an actual BDA driver.

The "hack" (which is the wrong term since no MCE compiled files are modified) is that when tuning QAM, it remaps the channel to the 2-69 RF range since Media Center (and a couple others) will only tune in that range.

It also reencapsulates the stream to be ATSC compliant but that is because of other issues.

No tinkering is involved when tuning ATSC OTA. Much less tinkering is involved for QAM than there used to be.

Ah, ok.....that sounds right. Been a while since I followed the HDHR stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

Got an answer from Hauppauge...

"At the moment the software doesn't display or record the close caption data."

This would tell me that (currently??) they are not doing anything with VBI, so the CGMS-A data wouldn't even make it to the PC for interpretation by Media Center.

Interested what they mean by "at the moment" though. Implies that it might be able to read the VBI data (in relation to closed captions).

Chris

Also, that they noted their software couldn't currently do it, but no mention of the hardware.
post #202 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

Got an answer from Hauppauge...

"At the moment the software doesn't display or record the close caption data."

This would tell me that (currently??) they are not doing anything with VBI, so the CGMS-A data wouldn't even make it to the PC for interpretation by Media Center.

Interested what they mean by "at the moment" though. Implies that it might be able to read the VBI data (in relation to closed captions).

Chris

Interesting. Could mean 2 things:

1. The software just doesn't support it yet, but might later on(leaving open the possibility of honoring CGMS in a future update/version)
2. No support for closed captions because the VBI isn't even read in the hardware, so it wouldn't even see the CGMS, along with the cc.

Unfortunetly the answers from their support are usually wide open to interpretation on everything from multiple unit support, to this, to the actual ship date.
post #203 of 5196
My last word on the whole CGMS-A "issue"...

I say look to the SD cards for what to expect. They don't "support" CGMS-A in that they don't do anything special with it, they just record the video (VBI included) and create a video file. It's Windows Media Center (the app) that views/interprets the CGMS-A flag in the VBI (or wherever it resides) and adds the rights management to it.

The same cards that MCE "supports" CGMS-A with, work without it in other apps (SageTV, etc), the card/drivers don't do anything with it.

I see no reason to expect the HD PVR to be any different. I'd bet that there will be no CGMS-A support with the HD PVR in most apps, and if/when it works in Media Center, I would not be surprised if it MCE supported it.
post #204 of 5196
This is what CGMS-A and EIA-608 closed captioning look like. CGMS-A is on line 20 (in both fields) and closed captioning is on line 21 (in this example, just in the first field). This image was created by moving the capture window up 12 lines on an MPEG-2 encoder.



A correctly aligned SD MPEG-2 (or H.264) encoder does not encode the VBI. However, it is captured and processed. For CGMS-A, the encoder may be disabled or the output stream encryption turned on. For closed captioning, the data is inserted into picture_user_data (or gop_user_data for DVD recordable).

There is a standard for CGMS-A on 720p and 1080i component outputs. Is is CEA-805C. Whether STB's actually implement CEA-805C remains to be seen

There is no standard for analog closed captioning on 720p or 1080i component outputs.

Ron
post #205 of 5196
I have a question, I dont have an HTPC but I do have a PC elsewhere in the house with XP & media center also with a Blu-ray burner drive. What I would like to do is, take some high def sports games on my cablebox dvr, transfer them to my PC and burn on a BR disc to keep in high def? Will this product enable me to do this?
post #206 of 5196
Ron: Please excuse my ignorance. As a practical matter, if my STB has a copy once flag on HBO and I try to capture a movie saved to my HD on the box (SA8300HD) will I get a picture like in your example or will I get nothing that is useable at all? By using the resizing feature on my video processor, I can move the lines up and out of the viewable picture. Thanks
post #207 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmoppa View Post

What separates consumer from professional? Price, or price and complexity?

Depending on those factors it still could be an option for us. What's a ballpark cost for one, and do you know of a an example make/model?

Looks like something close is about to come out, but not quite.
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/05/01...-to-your-hdtv/
post #208 of 5196
I will take the "wait and see" approach to this product now.

I hope I can use it to record in VMC, but it is starting to look like another failed product.

Time will tell, I have not written it off yet.
post #209 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

Ron: Please excuse my ignorance. As a practical matter, if my STB has a copy once flag on HBO and I try to capture a movie saved to my HD on the box (SA8300HD) will I get a picture like in your example or will I get nothing that is useable at all? By using the resizing feature on my video processor, I can move the lines up and out of the viewable picture. Thanks

If you can see it on your TV, you can record it with this, the (cable) box has no idea it's not connected to a TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I will take the "wait and see" approach to this product now.

I hope I can use it to record in VMC, but it is starting to look like another failed product.

Why is that, because VMC doesn't support it now? There's lots of products that are successful that VMC doesn't support. It's a bit arogant to think that a product can't succeed without VMC support.

How can it be failed, when it's exactly the product that has been asked for twice a day on this forum for the last five years.
post #210 of 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

How can it be failed, when it's exactly the product that has been asked for twice a day on this forum for the last five years.

It's really just semantics. One person's definition of failed may be very different from anothers. IMO, if a product does what it's advertised to do, it's not a failure from a customer perspective. However, if a company producing a product is predicting they'll sell X number of units and only sell 25% of their target, then that would generally be considered a failure from the manufacturer's perspective.
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