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Finished My Ed 18 inch sono's - Page 2

post #31 of 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I agree, but can you see someone like Mark Seaton having no restrictions whatsoever.

That would be dangerous. As a submersive owner, I can tell you that Mark "unleashed" would be quite scary. Those look really good BTW. I also like your ADA stuff. Very nice indeed.
post #32 of 672
Thread Starter 
The Ada drives my subs very nice. They actually power everything, including the 6 shakers in each seat(I don't even notice them anymore). I use to have a Samson S-2000 and the ada(although not rated as high in watts) seems to play louder and it never shuts down. The samson shut down down for 5 seconds on WOTW. Probably an impedance issue.
post #33 of 672
That's a rather imposing and capable setup there with the screen pulled away. Nice work.

Given your screen is acousticaly transparent, I would expect making the tubes black at some time would help the video a bit. Before you do that though, you might want to instead do a combined effort of putting some "soft stuff" over the hard surface of the tubes while covering them with a black fabric. If you took some un-faced R13 or R19 and then pulled some black fabric tight over it to a vertical tack strip in back, you could likely improve the video and the sound by reducing the reflections at the front of the room.

While huge subs are fun, we do have to pay attention to make sure they don't get in the way of the rest of the system. In this case the sizes work pretty well, and the 8" Coax's do have some directivity to reduce the reflections off the sub tubes more than some more common designs, but covering them would likely make for a noticable improvement in clarity and image placement. You could also just build a few panels to sit in front of the subs using rigid fiberglass panels.

Given your description of how the subs interact with the room, you might also want to see if it would be possible to place 2 of the subwoofers in the rear corners and see what the result is. This is where REQW will be of great help. While your SPL meter might be seeing 6dB per doubling of subwoofers, that is likely only over a limited frequency range. Fewest holes in the response and more efficient delivery of bass to the listening position is the goal (over the entire subwofoer range).

Enjoy!
post #34 of 672
Thread Starter 
Thanks Mark. I have heard great things about the Captivator as well. That sounds like a great idea with the insulation. I love the triple 8's and seem small next to the subs but they keep up with the subs easily. I have the triple 8's pulled out slightly ahead of the sono's. I never thought about the reflections from the subs. Again, there is a reason you do what you do. This was my first attempt at anything audio and I am quite pleased. I used to own the SVS cylinders(seems like a long time ago now) and that was my goal, but with much more spl. The added sound quality is a bonus.

Looking at Art's setup with his plus/2's(Which I also owned) and now the submersives had me thinking. You are right about the back corners, they are the very best position for any sub in my room. I had 2-18 inch folded horns back there once and it would hit 125 db's and also hit 120 db's at 20 hz(with folded horns). The problem are my kids(1 and 3) would crawl into them(made me nervous) so I decided to put all things out of their reach. That is why you see the rack in a wall and the subs behind the screen. You are the first to mention the 6 db's gain and I was wondering about that.

My screen is acoustically transparent and I had no drop off in spl with the screen in place or without(of course with test tones and don't know about all frequencies). I have been thinking about using rew(I already downloaded it) to see the response.

Anyway, I might even have some insulation left over when I built the room(when I say built I don't mean me personally, my friends). My friend will want to kill me if he has to help me move the screen again. Lucky for me I am 6'3" and 250 pounds(ha ha).
post #35 of 672
Nicely done, very nicely done. It's been a long time coming, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK View Post

My other question is How can I get the max gain when they are not colocated? Is it because they are so big? When I tested the 2 corner subs I did get a 6 db's in gain.

The size of sound waves in the subwoofer range are quite large and though it may not seem like it, those subs are still packed in pretty close to each other. Aside from the gain creaed by having 4 subs, you are probably also getting a ton of free boundary gain by loading up that space with subs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK View Post

I agree, but can you see someone like Mark Seaton having no restrictions whatsoever.

For the cash you spent, Mark wouldn't be able to touch it, as Mark sells his creations, and he needs to make a margin. Hence DIY wins.


As for measuring your subs, just keep in mind that if they sound great to you now, there is no need to obsess over a perfectly flat FR. You may be able to make it sound better with some strategic EQ, but at the same time, you may make it sound worse in trying to make it look better. Just don't lose the forrest for the trees.
post #36 of 672
That looks like a lot of fun MKtheater! I can't wait for my Triple 8s and Growler to arrive!
post #37 of 672
Thread Starter 
I have gone too far. These sound amazing. I run them flat except for spirited demos. Well, I just finished with WOTW and before I give you the measurements(spl meter), I will tell you the effects on the house. First, I ran them flat and hit 120 db's alot, not too bad. Then I turned it up 6 db's to see. I have a house alarm with a glass break detector and I set that off 3 times, 2 of my lights turned 90 degrees, and finally my door handle fell off. The 3 people in the room just started laughing. All this equates to 126 db's minimum, that is all it goes and it pinned it. The whole scene was at 118 db's with peaks at 120, 121, 122, 126 at least 4 times. Ok, I know that is nuts but I wanted to see the capability, now back to reference levels and alot of headroom.

SteveCallas,
You are right, I think it took me a year to finally to try this. It cost me $1000 for all 4 and then $720 for my amp. $1720 total and I wired these into 2 ohms and my amp handles that with ease. I am impressed with them.
post #38 of 672
Thread Starter 
The triple 8's are fantastic and blend perfect with these subs and keeps up with them in dynamics and power. You will be happy.
post #39 of 672
I want to build 2 tube like yours. What other construction detail can you give me. Thanks
How much bracing did you use?
How long are the ports?
What might you do different?
Thanks
post #40 of 672
Thread Starter 
Spyboy,

I have updated my sig to include the JBL's. I did replace the triple 8's with the
JBL 3622N speakers. My surrounds are the 8340A's. A true cinematic experience. I am still wondering about the sealed vs ported. I am looking into which amps would power my mains because I would need more amplification. My 4 sono's cost me $1700 including amps and to change them to sealed would cost me $1300 more. I am not sure if that extra cost would be worth it so I can get flat to 5 hz instead of 11 hz. I already get really good numbers at 5 hz but just not flat, more than enough to notice it. My poll ended up being 31 to 29 in favor of the sealed.
post #41 of 672
Thread Starter 
Since this was lost I will repost.

My sonos:
Two 24 inch round sonotubes at 12 feet long cut in half to make four 6 feet 24 inch round sontubes.
The ports are 33 inches long and 8 inches round with no flaring
There is no bracing
I went minimal on endcaps just to see how much one really needs, I have 3/4 inch endcaps for both driver and port and they are plenty strong.
If I did anything different it would have been tuning it deeper, around 10hz. When you have this much headroom it is ok to lose some output from 20-80 hz to extend deeper. I am over 130 db's so i have plenty to give up.
post #42 of 672
Are your 190v.2's the D2 or D4 voice coil option? How many watts are you giving each one? Thanks!
post #43 of 672
Thread Starter 
I have the D4 and I am wiring them into 2 ohms with 600 watts each. My amps handle that easily. I would not do this with any amp.
post #44 of 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I have the D4 and I am wiring them into 2 ohms with 600 watts each. My amps handle that easily. I would not do this with any amp.

Thanks. How about with a Behringer EP2500?
post #45 of 672
Thread Starter 
That should do it.
post #46 of 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My 4 sono's cost me $1700 including amps and to change them to sealed would cost me $1300 more. I am not sure if that extra cost would be worth it so I can get flat to 5 hz instead of 11 hz

Haha, no, $1300 is not worth a performance downgrade.
post #47 of 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Haha, no, $1300 is not worth a performance downgrade.

Way to bait.
post #48 of 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Haha, no, $1300 is not worth a performance downgrade.

I wouldn't call it a 'downgrade' but it certainly wouldn't be worth $1300, IMHO.

MK has it already stated, "Is it worth it just for below 10hz content?"

I personally don't think so. Unless that is the end goal for you. If it's just for more SPL or badassness then go for it. From what MK has been stating on the forums is that he is pretty pleased with his 130dB capability and his quad vented 18's certainly provide that.

Either way, it's MK's call and I support whichever direction he chooses to go in.
post #49 of 672
Thread Starter 
I watched shooter and the dark night prologue for the first time and now with audyssey activated my subs now have the punch I had when I was using the 2 folded horn 18 inch subs. The shotgun blasts are unreal. Like I have said before, I already get over 110 db's at 5 hz and I have read somewhere that 105 db's is reference for 5 hz so I am thinking why even bother since I am already there. Just not flat. These have more punch than I realized and now even happier with them. I demo'd Rambo for my friend(the one who thought that I was crazy for building my own subs, he thought how can someone build a sub better than a sub maker(SVS)). Actually he has not heard my system in 6 months. I changed all the speakers and subs and when he watched it he told me that he used to shoot weapons similar to that and it was so real. The sound and feel of the recoils and everything were perfect. That put a big smile on my face. Now that is accurate bass.
post #50 of 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post

I wouldn't call it a 'downgrade' but it certainly wouldn't be worth $1300, IMHO.

It absolutely would be a downgrade. He would lose a *lot of clean headroom from nearly an octave below tuning to just over an octave above tuning.
post #51 of 672
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

It absolutely would be a downgrade. He would lose a *lot of clean headroom from nearly an octave below tuning to just over an octave above tuning.

This is true but I would gain 14 db's below 9 hz and gain about 3 db's from 21 hz and above. I would lose about 4-5 db's from 10-19hz. I guess there are trade offs. The sealed would be flatter to 5hz and the vented is flat to 10 hz with great output at 5 hz. After running Audyssey it seems that the upper bass regions are much better now. I am probably crazy because the bass I have now is stunning. I already have more than enough output.
post #52 of 672
Thread Starter 
The JBL's are just awesome as well. I have friends with expensive home theaters and one in particular always blows his tweeters when he turns it up. I told him he could not do this in my room, he would blow his eardrums first. He needs new gear.
post #53 of 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by MK View Post

and gain about 3 db's from 21 hz and above

No.
post #54 of 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

This is true but I would gain 14 db's below 9 hz and gain about 3 db's from 21 hz and above. I would lose about 4-5 db's from 10-19hz. I guess there are trade offs. The sealed would be flatter to 5hz and the vented is flat to 10 hz with great output at 5 hz. After running Audyssey it seems that the upper bass regions are much better now. I am probably crazy because the bass I have now is stunning. I already have more than enough output.

Hi, MK,

You certainly have a potent system there, but I have to take exception to the claims of output below tune.

There is absolutely zero evidence that any ported subwoofer has any useful output below its tune. The noise and harmonic distortion will absolutely swamp any output of the fundamental in your system below 14Hz, much less allow for 105dB output at 5Hz.

Please see the attached THD on-the-fly traces of several noted ported subwoofers which are all tuned similarly to your quad ported system.

Quote:
originally posted by MKTheater: Yes, eight 18's in all in 4 sono's (opposed) with 600 watts going into each driver.

That's for Steve, who is known for his lack of reading comprehension, but he is correct in saying that you would not gain 3dB above 23Hz. It would be much closer to 6dB more. and gobs more below 14Hz.

Only the mentally challenged would call a system of 8-18s sealed with 5KW of power a downgrade. Scroll up for proof.

Bosso

Bosso
LL
post #55 of 672
Thread Starter 
Hi Bosso,

If all I am getting is distortion at 5 hz or even 10 hz then distortion feels pretty good. Aren't those numbers outside, I have a 2300 cubic foot sealed, and treated room with about 25-30 db's of gain at 5 hz. I don't need any EQ down low. Those thd numbers I would think would be less in my room, then change it to 4 18's rather than one 12, 13, or 15. I am not even coming close to the max capability of my subs and that was the point with multiples. With all that said, I know doubling the power and drivers would be better, it better be because the cost is almost doubled as well. My question, is it worth it? If I happen to come across another amp like I am using I most likely will do it. My family thinks I am nuts anyway. Again, I have no doubt that it would be better, it should be, it cost almost twice as much. I even talked to eD and he said to go for it as well. After all, he will be selling more drivers.
Another question I have is, if I do change them to sealed, what do I use to insulate them with? Changing would be pretty easy, I just have to cut a bigger whole, insert stuffing, insert new driver, add wires and binding post and done. I would be able to fire it up right away.
post #56 of 672
Thread Starter 
Also,
when I play a 5hz scene like say from WOTW my room will shake like crazy. My meter(radio shack analog) will hit 105-110 db's. What is the correction factors for it?
post #57 of 672
MKT,

At 5Hz you'll have a 20dB advantage over the current system with 1 1/4" less P to P excursion.

Yes, room gain is significant in your HT, but you really need to get REW up and running with a good sound card and microphone. If you don't know the transfer function of the room, you will never reach max potential.

You're correct in saying that room gain lessens harmonics as a percentage, but you're guessing without knowing the room gain at the fundamental and harmonics frequencies of a given frequency or bandwidth.

Your silos are so big that you would not need stuffing with 2 drivers in each. As you know, I'm no fan of huge containers. They limit upper BW headroom for not much in return. But, you have the power plant defined at 600W each driver and that's well within the limitation.

Remember, the SPL meter is recording peaks of the sum of all simultaneous content, or total sound pressure level, so it's impossible to tell if it's registering the fundamental, its harmonics, the rest of the 4-5 octave spread of frequencies, a huge peak in the in-room response higher up or all of the above. This renders correction factors useless.

The SPL meter measures Sound Pressure Level at any given instant, nothing else, and quite inaccurately at that when you're talking about single digits.

A FR graph, close mic'd, compared to a FR at the LP will give you the math you need to fashion EQ and predict the output/THD capability of the system.

In any case, it would be a marked improvement, no question about it.

The cost is irrelevant, but many insist it is an issue, in which case, I fail to see the doubling in price. The original 1X18" silos cost $325 each. Adding a driver to each would only entail the cost of the drivers because the $$ spent building the containers remains unchanged.

I'm in the dark about amplification. I know you've said you have 600W to each driver into 2 ohms, so I assume you have the dual 4 ohm drivers a 4 channels of amp. I thought I read you were using ADA MP-502s, which are pretty spendy IIRC. I just don't know. But either way, you could use a single $800 amp to power all 8 drivers.

The total cost would be a 50% increase, not double.

6dB headroom above 30Hz, improved transient response, 20dB advantage at 5Hz with much less excursion (distortion), tunable F3 and F6 BW and longer LF system life.

All in all, the most cost effective upgrade you'll probably ever make to the entire system, IMO.

Bosso
post #58 of 672
Are you talking about going with 8 sealed subs or just turning the 4 ported into 4 sealed?
post #59 of 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKTheater View Post

Yes, eight 18's in all in 4 sono's (opposed) with 600 watts going into each driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

That's for Steve, who is known for his lack of reading comprehension,

Only the mentally challenged would call a system of 8-18s sealed with 5KW of power a downgrade. Scroll up for proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Are you talking about going with 8 sealed subs or just turning the 4 ported into 4 sealed?

Too funny for words.....
post #60 of 672
Thread Starter 
Bosso,
Which amp could power all 8 drivers? I am using two MPA-501's, they are 5 channel amps. So I have 10 channels. I am also using a PF-2501 which is 2 channels and if I were to do this that leaves me 4 channels of amplification short.

Steve,
I would turn the sonos into dual 18's sealed(opposing each other), basically replacing the 8 inch ports with an 18 inch driver and amplification.
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