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Dark Chip 2 vs Dark Chip 3??? what's the difference???

post #1 of 38
Thread Starter 
what is the major difference in these 2 chips? anyone? is it worth the huge extra money to go with a V3 chip? TIA
post #2 of 38
It's a more advanced chip with a better contrast and deeper blacks.
post #3 of 38
The gaps between the mirrors are smaller, and the surface of each mirror is supposedly flatter and more polished. Those differences combine to give around a 25% increase in native CR. It is personal choice if the performance difference is worth the extra cost. Here is an interesting TI slide that shows the progression of the DMD chips up to the DC3. The latest and greatest is the DC4, but it is only available in a few 1080P models, and appears to give around a 10% CR improvement over the DC3.

http://home.speedfactory.net/tracyrk...ip_history.jpg
post #4 of 38
DC3 = Better Blacks , Higher CR but usually with more visible pixel structure due to darker lines between pixels . The pivot dimple was said to be fixed with DC3 but it was not as those PJ's with excellent optics can certainly resolve the 'dimple' .

-- Jason
post #5 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by eightninesuited View Post

It's a more advanced chip with a better contrast and deeper blacks.

Supposedly. Art at PR shows implementation is the real key for IQ.
post #6 of 38
Indeed it is all about implementation. I had a Marantz VP4001 (DC2) and an Optoma HD7100 (DC3) in the same room firing onto the same screen etc etc.

The Marantz produced better blacks and had a higher contrast ratio. Some of this was due to the adjustable iris in the Marantz, but even when both were set at the same brightness the Marantz won out.

Tests on its equivalent Sharp model (Z3000) gave it the highest CR of any 720P the mag involved had tested, including Sharp's own DC3s.
post #7 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

DC3 = Better Blacks , Higher CR but usually with more visible pixel structure due to darker lines between pixels.

don't agree

the DC3 has 95% aperture ratio.

I can clearly see the HC1100 mosquito effect from my seat(sorry can't be hassled to convert meters to inch/foot)....where it's almost invisible with the HC3100.

everything's better with DC3....in 720p at least, because the 95% aperture ratio doesn't make such a big diff with 1080p, obviously.

and even a DC3 doesn't have a FANTASTIC native ratio, the HC3100 is 3000:1 from C4H measurements....the dark scenes don't look too good, even after a D65 calibration.

reason why they start putting DI on the new DC2/DC3 pj like the BenQ W5K/20K

I've been told that the W20K was the sharpest pj E-V-E-R
post #8 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

The gaps between the mirrors are smaller, and the surface of each mirror is supposedly flatter and more polished. Those differences combine to give around a 25% increase in native CR. It is personal choice if the performance difference is worth the extra cost. Here is an interesting TI slide that shows the progression of the DMD chips up to the DC3. The latest and greatest is the DC4, but it is only available in a few 1080P models, and appears to give around a 10% CR improvement over the DC3.

http://home.speedfactory.net/tracyrk...ip_history.jpg

So native (without iris) Contrast Ratio improvements seem to be hitting a wall... I guess I'll have to wait for some radically new technology to give me 100% true blacks.
post #9 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecuadorian View Post

So native (without iris) Contrast Ratio improvements seem to be hitting a wall... I guess I'll have to wait for some radically new technology to give me 100% true blacks.

How about some radically ancient tech...CRT?
post #10 of 38
Quote:


So native (without iris) Contrast Ratio improvements seem to be hitting a wall... I guess I'll have to wait for some radically new technology to give me 100% true blacks.

I think one way DLPs can continue to increase native contrast is with greater movement of the mirrors.

Jim
post #11 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

How about some radically ancient tech...CRT?

Too big for my place.
post #12 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

don't agree

the DC3 has 95% aperture ratio.

I can clearly see the HC1100 mosquito effect from my seat(sorry can't be hassled to convert meters to inch/foot)....where it's almost invisible with the HC3100.

everything's better with DC3....in 720p at least, because the 95% aperture ratio doesn't make such a big diff with 1080p, obviously.

and even a DC3 doesn't have a FANTASTIC native ratio, the HC3100 is 3000:1 from C4H measurements....the dark scenes don't look too good, even after a D65 calibration.

reason why they start putting DI on the new DC2/DC3 pj like the BenQ W5K/20K

I've been told that the W20K was the sharpest pj E-V-E-R

Well you can certainly disagree but as stated above there are cases where DC2 is overall better than DC3 . With the comparison that you mention above I have no doubt that the 3100 is superior to the 1100 but there are other reasons for it besides the DMD .

--- Jason
post #13 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecuadorian View Post

So native (without iris) Contrast Ratio improvements seem to be hitting a wall... I guess I'll have to wait for some radically new technology to give me 100% true blacks.

DILA is about as close as you are going to get to 'true blacks' with front projection ( for now anyway ) .

-- Jason
post #14 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Well you can certainly disagree but as stated above there are cases where DC2 is overall better than DC3 . With the comparison that you mention above I have no doubt that the 3100 is superior to the 1100 but there are other reasons for it besides the DMD

DC3 has higher fill ratio(smaller inter-mirrors space), better contrast......what could possibly be better about DC2...and in what given situation
post #15 of 38
As stated above there are better implemented DC2 PJ's out there . I am not saying that straight across the board DC2 is better than DC3 , it is not , what I am saying is that DC3 is not always the better choice when deciding between certain PJ's . In other words don't make a purchase choice based solely off DC2 vs. DC3 .

-- Jason
post #16 of 38
yeah OK, some top notch optical path like on the Yam' + some DI can put a DC2 up to the level of a DC3, and even give better blacks.

but I would have a hard time going from my 720p DC3 to a 1080p DC2
post #17 of 38
I've had 2 DC2 machines and now own a DC3 pj (Sharp XV-Z12K MKII). I had a Marantz vp4001, which is DC2, but has a very similar contrast ratio to the MKII.

Seems like the chips have very little to do with the final contrast ratio. What comes with the chip does.
post #18 of 38
well, yes and no.

I've just read an in-depth test of the BenQ W5K on a french site.

the reviewer has a HC3100 at home, just like me.

he wasn't too impressed by the native contrast of this thing.

it seems that the W20K is much more promising, with its DC3

a very good optical path + a DI can "cheat" on the black level, but not entirely(on a very dark scene with one bright light source, the DI can't do its job).

oh well.....I'll wait for the 1080p DC4 then, that's how much I hate the LCD technology
post #19 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

well, yes and now.

I've just read an in-depth test of the BenQ W5K on a french site.

the reviewer has a HC3100 at home, just like me.

he wasn't too impressed by the native contrast of this thing.

it seems that the W20K is much more promising, with its DC3

That may not be a valid comparison however. BenQ is not officially divulging the actual DMD used in the W5K, but there's evidence that the new cheap DC1 1080p DMD is being used, and not DC2. For example:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=157
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=100

You can browse the threads associated with those posts for more info. InFocus has announced a new projector, the X10, that also uses the DC1 1080p chip and sells for a little over $2K.
post #20 of 38
Thread Starter 
thanks for all the information guys. i appreciate it.
post #21 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Well you can certainly disagree but as stated above there are cases where DC2 is overall better than DC3 . With the comparison that you mention above I have no doubt that the 3100 is superior to the 1100 but there are other reasons for it besides the DMD .

--- Jason

Yeah, not to mention some of the high end boutique pjs are going BACK to the DC2 for improvements in shadow detail. I imagine there's a lot better profit margin possible with a 5 yr old chip than a 3 or 1 year old chip...course, its not going to save you any money but its interesting nonetheless.

This just proves that absolute black level is not the last word in PQ...(this could easily turn into a DLP vs. other technology discussion but I won't go there...)

I hadn't heard the info. about DC1 1080p chips being used, interesting. Those chips have got to be a dime a dozen by now...
post #22 of 38
hummm...DC1 in W5K ?

matterhorn was HD2 DC2, then we got mustang and stuff that were HD2+ DC2.

so DC1 would be 640*480 or sumthing ?

it would seem that TI sorts their chips a great deal.

DC4 would actually be cherry picked DC3....hence the very low yield rate and the "vaporware" behavior towards this chip.

anyhow, we've seen "el cheapo" Optoma's with 1y warranty only(instead of 3 here in europe), and lower quality DMD's(they were called HD800X and HD700X, different names in the US I think).

I'm willing to believe that the W5K might also include a cheapo 1080p DMD as in the HD800X....even though, we'll never really know

but c'mon......DC1 ?

these BenQ employees are prolly a bit clueless.......or TI is hiding a great deal of infos to us, the end users......and DC1 would be chips that didn't pass QA to DC2 or sumthing
post #23 of 38
Unfortunately there's zero info out there regarding the new 1080p DC1, but it's definitely a new chip, not leftovers, and it's anyone's guess as to how CR is restricted. Is it identical to the old DC1, with its larger dimple? Or does it incorporate some of the advances seen with HD2+ and DC2? Is it just that the mirrors are less polished than the DC2 or DC3? Is it only lacking a coating that the higher CR chips have? No one knows unfortunately.
post #24 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Dark Chip 2 vs Dark Chip 3??? what's the difference???



1
post #25 of 38
There is more to this than just the mirrors. The processing that controls the mirrors is important as well as the speed the mirrors are capable of flipping. Some engineers preferred the DC2 over the DC3 because of these abilities. They had stated they were able to get better shadow detail with the DC2 but traded off a little overall black level and possibly a minor amount of CR. This is referring to the 720P chips by the way. I have heard (I have no proof) that the 1080P versions of DC1,2,3 all use the same processing.

Pick the PJ and screen that suits your particular situation and budget. If possible view them in your environment and viewing conditions. The whole process of picking a PJ invloves selecting the proper screen and the combinations need to be considered.

Hope this helps.

Bob
post #26 of 38
well I find it hard to believe that anything looks better on DC2 than on DC3.

we know the difference between DC2 and DC3, it's been explained in a technical PDF from TI.

the back of the chip behind the mirrors is flat black on the DC3, which means less mosquito effet.

the fill ratio is increased, so less inter-mirror space, and the CR is also increased because the mirrors can spin a tad more and their coating has been improved.

higher native ratio = better shadow details.

when the BenQ employees talk about DC1 in the W5K, and DC3 in the W20K.....I'd say they have no idea what they are talking about......or we've been lied to for quite some time

the diff between the HC1100(DC2) and the HC3100(DC3) is pretty minimal.....same lamp, same mineral glass optics.

the only difference is in the optical path, the 3100's being a tad more polished....so that would explain the black level being so low....yet the 1100 has way less contrast(less 3D like), and its mosquito effect is striking
post #27 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post


higher native ratio = better shadow details.

Not necessarily, if the mirrors can't flip as fast that effects bit depth and would affect shadow detail. If the mirror processing algorithm is different that can also affect shadow detail especially when coupled with different segment and speed color wheels. From the engineers I have talked with there were tradeoffs between the 720 DC2 and DC3 chipset. DC3 wasn't a DC2 with better mirrors, smaller gaps and blackening of backing. Also, there are different versions of these DC2/DC3 chips and some have different size mirrors which also effect CR.

These DLP parameters are only one aspect of a projector's design as stated and many other things need to be considered. Trying to pick a PJ off of these specs alone will not necessarily get you the best PJ for your application.

Bob
post #28 of 38
ok, thanks for the clarification!

I guess I'll still wait for 1080p DC4 then
post #29 of 38
So lets see two lists of the top 720p projectors that take full advantage of the dark chip 2 and dark chip 3 technology.
post #30 of 38
it's funny to see that Planar just released the PD7010, which is basically a HC3k clone(1280*768/30 degrees offset), and it's only got a DC2 ?!

I'd say the BenQ PE8720 is pretty good for DC3 and has HQ mineral glass optics...but it doesn't accept 24/48Hz from what I read

so as far as DC3 is concerned we still got HD78/IN78/HC3100

the HC3100 does 24/48Hz w/o a itch, and it's got mineral glass HQ optics...not sure about the others ?

about wheels speeds.....the HC3100 has a 4X/5X speed switch....but a lot of colors disappear as soon as you set it to 5X

C4H talks about it(in german ) :
http://www.cine4home.de/knowhow/DLP-...Farbraeder.htm

so what's up with 6X/7X wheels ?! but I guess TI has some shady tricks up their sleeve
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