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Barco Cinema Projektor DP 2000 with 4000 Watt Xenon Lamp at Home - Page 6

post #151 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

Sie muessen mehr Bier drinken, und dann werden Sie Deutsch sprechen..

( I think I wrote that correctly, it's been... years...)

Infinitively more beer shall not make me speak German. Was rather poor at German in high school (all that repetitive practicing of grammar, and they have a lot of it), so dropped it as soon as I could, so only had two years of German, but still understand it quite well, having grown up on Derrick and der alte Der Alte;-). Don't use (or get a chance to speak/write) any German, as the Germans I meet all start speaking (fairly) good English as soon as you meet them.

BTW, drinken is Dutch trinken is German;-).
post #152 of 289
Well I spoke German before I spoke English, but that was a few decades ago. I was in Germany in 1975 which I think was the last time I went, and I agree, everthing there was Genglish..
post #153 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

as i post early dark seq. looks very very good.
surprising good.
no need to play with numbers here.
some 10 people that saw my new set up think the same as you
but i convice them in 10 sec.
and they all shack there head and ask why that can looks so good.

I would leave unconvinced because numbers don't lie in this regard. Your only hope is that the bright parts fool the eye to think elevated gray looks black. That works with brights scenes and some mixed scenes. It does not work with other mixed scenes and dark scenes if you know how it can look with real blacks (many people don't).
Fact is your black level is very conservatively estimated 20 times higher than mine and mine is not yet good enough for what I want so how convinced can I be?
post #154 of 289
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

I would leave unconvinced because numbers don't lie in this regard. Your only hope is that the bright parts fool the eye to think elevated gray looks black. That works with brights scenes and some mixed scenes. It does not work with other mixed scenes and dark scenes if you know how it can look with real blacks (many people don't).
Fact is your black level is very conservatively estimated 20 times higher than mine and mine is not yet good enough for what I want so how convinced can I be?


its again the same discussion with you theory numbers and........
i will not go gain into this again.
we had that long time ago.

it to time comsuming for nothing.

so if i cant convinced you thats ok no problem.
post #155 of 289
Here is my photographs of Casino Royale, don't laugh.

The AF on the lens has 2 settings one with a flower, I took that out. Need to use the flower the next time.
LL
post #156 of 289
Peter, your screen shots do not count, as you are not in the picture. Only when you make the same as Wolfang did they can be accepted. So get yourself on small ladder in Helene and make a big smile, will you ?
post #157 of 289
I actually had one shot with my finger shadow puppet standing on the corner, in anticipation of this kind of rigorous response.
post #158 of 289
Peter the flower is the symbol for macros, pictures taken very close. Leave that off.
post #159 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

so if i cant convinced you thats ok no problem.

You have seen enough in your life that you know yourself that your blacks are sometimes far from optimal. You just put up with it because you have this huge screen to fill and sharp and bright DLPs have their advantages too. Nobody denies that. Denying the problems does not make them inexistant, though. They are real and quite visible.
post #160 of 289
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

You have seen enough in your life that you know yourself that your blacks are sometimes far from optimal. You just put up with it because you have this huge screen to fill and sharp and bright DLPs have their advantages too. Nobody denies that. Denying the problems does not make them inexistant, though. They are real and quite visible.

no question that 4000 or 5000:1 is better that my good 2000:1 that i have
and i was looking to get it in my pr.
i only need a iris that can take the heat from a 4000watt xenon
and it need to be switch on off from outside as the location is deep inside
the light pad.
sounds easy but on one did it before because its not easy at all.

what i like to bring here up was that all the people that saw the unit
and there was also some crt guys they can not belive that this unit have
just arround 2400:1 cr.
when i ask them the sady it looks like 5000:1 or more and that is also
how i see it.
post #161 of 289
I will say this with high ANSI and a lot of light it definitely makes a difference.It allows a lot more pleasing picture than I would have ever expected. With yours Wolfgang you have more ANSI and double the light off the screen at least. I mean it would be great if we could have all the great things 3 chip DLP does and 100,000:1 FF CR but it still throws an incredible picture.

Art
post #162 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

...... I mean it would be great if we could have all the great things 3 chip DLP does and 100,000:1 FF CR but it still throws an incredible picture.

How can we achieve those attributes, that is the question.....
post #163 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

You have seen enough in your life that you know yourself that your blacks are sometimes far from optimal. You just put up with it because you have this huge screen to fill and sharp and bright DLPs have their advantages too. Nobody denies that. Denying the problems does not make them inexistence, though. They are real and quite visible.

This my friend..... is the quote of the year !

You have to understand that sometime ego can over-ride all reality and science
post #164 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

No doubt and I'd love to see it as well.You are so right. Wolfgang IMO is the go to guy scraping the sky with projection excellence and integrety.

Be sure to understand that despite the fact that I can certainly agree regarding what the Braco can do there may be great alternatives for screens in my size range.

Art

.....When will you get your DP2000, NEC NC1600, or 2K DLP projector Art ?
post #165 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanohv View Post

How can we achieve those attributes, that is the question.....

Laser.
post #166 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr View Post

Laser.

LCoS or DMD
post #167 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanohv View Post

This my friend..... is the quote of the year !

You have to understand that sometime ego can over-ride all reality and science

Obviously you have not seen Wolfgangs projector, and you try to understand it by numbers. That is your shortcoming.

His cinemascope picture is very close to a 70mm presentation, no other projecotr or lens combination has ever achieved that, I clearly credit the projectors extreme ansi number IN CINEMASCOPE for wowing everyone that sees it. Including many a film and television professionals.

Creating a great Image is a mixture of art and science, your collective obsession with on/off contrast ratio is simply not evident in balance here, this is a paradigm shift projector by a long shot, some of you have a problem believing that, in this case it is YOUR EGO that is having an envious response to Wolfgangs auspicious purchase.
post #168 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Obviously you have not seen Wolfgangs projector, and you try to understand it by numbers. That is your shortcoming.

His cinemascope picture is very close to a 70mm presentation, no other projecotr or lens combination has ever achieved that, I clearly credit the projectors extreme ansi number IN CINEMASCOPE for wowing everyone that sees it. Including many a film and television professionals.

Creating a great Image is a mixture of art and science, your collective obsession with on/off contrast ratio is simply not evident in balance here, this is a paradigm shift projector by a long shot, some of you have a problem believing that, in this case it is YOUR EGO that is having an envious response to Wolfgangs auspicious purchase.

Here we go again.

I only have one thing to say. Actually two, or maybe three.

1. 70MM?????

2. Absolutely NOT.

I will confirm this when I hunt down the first IMAX that goes digital near me.

3. I want you to start a petition of Videophiles in this forum that are willing to state that 35 foot lamberts on a 20 foot wide Cinemascope with 100,000 to one contrast in the proper environment would be inferior to the same with 10,000 to one contrast which has not even been measured by any 3 chip DLP of that magnitude in a home theater environment that I know of.

Heck has it been measured in DCI theaters?

Wolf has done a fantastic job and it shows. This is no insult against him but I'm sure that even he would be willing to agree with me.

Cliff
post #169 of 289
Hre we go again? Oh boy a young Republican, no wonder...

Let's reword it. Everyone professional or laymen alike that has seen the Barcos [except one person that saw it with a thick layer of dust on the lenses and plate glass who lives by the CRT seq. cr. agenda] exclaims how dramatically better it is to what has been shown in the last 4 years cedia, ces, and infocomm. The closest possible thing to this projector unmodified is the 250K Runco sc-1, modified it is the DPI Lighting reference,the SUPREME projector last CEDIA. There were Sony and JVC projectors with 15K-1 at CEDIA but there was no way they came close to the Lighting Reference. I had until last shoeast no projector agenda and have been to most shows for the past 3 years and have also been to 2 hollywood facilities,for screens at this point until I compare the SMX to the Torus (I will be remaining screen agnostic).

Sequential contrast out of the DCI spec. is forbidden by TI in an Iron Clad agreement with the manufacturers.

5k-1( without sacrificing uniformity) and perhaps 6k-1 (sacrificing uniformity with the delta apertures) is as far as you are going to see for a LONG TIME. SO EVERYONE better adjust your thinking there. For those that enjoy this latest Barco and other upcoming .98 dci projector with servo zoom lens the extreme anso contrast delivery of MTF (YES HIGH MTF with propietary gamma =VIRTUAL 70mm).

Soon enough these projectors with the modifications will be available to be seen by those interested in aproximating 70mm at home. In the meantime I don't believe that the Imax and dci theaters are the best way to see these projectors.

Perhaps when/if Art gets to see 2 or 3 of these things in action in one seating then you will accept.

As much as some of you pride yourselves of being ardent videophiles (for movie watching purposes - not anaglyphic photography) the King Of Miami is the most ardent. He is ONE TOUGH CUSTOMER fliying himself on his own transatlantic jet to every show, he has been in every A list private screening room in Hollywood, gets VIP seats at Cannes, and prided himself in his former 100,000seq 11' wide G-90 Torus rig. Wolfgang too had G-90 stacks, so please stop preaching to the choir when you have not seen the other side of the coin.

NO ONE HAS spent more resources, time and effort on this quest than Ugo. Last CEDIA he even told someone at Runco during the vx-55 demo that started presenting their shpeal on Contrast:

Runco: We know contrast we have even developed a new iniciative to measure contrast in our products...

Ugo: Sorry to interrupt but your contrast ain't that high -your blacks here are grey.

At which point they tried to readjust the projector to no avail.

At CEDIA he did prefer the contrast of the DPI units, however the lighting reference was too big, so he had settled for the imperfect color of the Titan Reference.

When I called him and told him that I had something a magnitude better he said "naw".

I told him to prepare himself to seing the finest image he had ever seen. The results were an unqualified endorsement ...



That says it all... In the meantime I would suggest a forum NEW RULE: That people that want to discuss projectors contrast ratios in excess of 6,500 to 1 please GET OUT OF DODGE.

Since TI DCI spec forbids contrast ratios in excess of 2,000+-10%, and there is a limit to how much this can be modded, IT SERVES NO PURPOSE BUT TO DRAIN VITAL RESEARCH ENERGIES to bring this unrealistic discussions, please keep them on the other 5 forums. It is always the same insensitive people harping on this non reality.
post #170 of 289
Quote:


and you try to understand it by numbers. That is your shortcoming.

Sorry Peter, but such "killer phrases" should be exclusiv to high end audio voodoo dealers, cable-listeners and accoustic-ignorants. By the year 2008, we all should have stopped to believe in "wonders" and take matters purely unbiased by what they are.....and most matters can be measured, if not all....so numbers should all our best friends.

The only difference with such numbers is that you e.g. prefer one, say ANSI or Light Source Spectrum, over another. You clearly cannot be serious, when you try to persuade people into "shortcommings", because they do not follow your own preferences, taste or bias.

PS: and really, you should be able to afford an entry level DSLR (Nikon or Canon) for better screen shots
post #171 of 289
Thread Starter 
i will give up to tell people here that numbers are important but not tell
the hole story.

it is not strange that all the people saw my set up agree with me and all the
people that not saw the set up post here that numbers are so much important?

sorry but that reminds me when i was 14 years old and get the first amplifer and speakers.
i say more than 30 years ago

"MY SET UP HAS 2X 50 WATT AND I MEAN MY SET UP MUST SOUND BETTER THAN
THE OTHERS BECAUSE THE HAVE ONLY 2X25 WATT"
THAN LATER I UNDERSTAND THAT WATT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH QUALITY BUT THAN I SAY OH MY SOUND SYSTEM CAN PLAY WITH MORE POWER LEVEL THAN YOURS WITH JUST 2X25WATT:
THAN LATER I KNOW THAT THERE A SPEAKERS OUT THAT HAVE WITH 2 WATT MORE
SOUND LEVEL THAN MY SPEAKERS WITH 50 WATT AND SO ON...........

the barco dp 1500 or the dp 2000 with the cr. modification optimised for home cinema only(no 3d) color calibatet is the best pr. you can purchase today.
the secound best is depends on how rate on off cr. and color the sim2 5000 or the
christie hd6 or 8k.
the christie have the better color much more light but only about 2500:1 on off cr. the sim2 have this
high on off cr. (i have measure at the demo at home good 5000:1)but much less light.

but the hole discusion about on off cr.make for many people read here anyway no sense because the have not the right room condition to see more than 2000:1 on off
anyway.
and for those that have the right room like art they should be fine with over 5000:1 on off.
art as you are a doublstack g90 user in the past how you rate now after you have your
sim2 5000 for some time?
did you feel you need to go back to a g 90 stack because of the worse
on off cr. your sim2 have?
if i am not wrong i think you are very pleased with the picture and all in all
you like it more than the g 90 stack right?
post #172 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Hre we go again? Oh boy a young Republican, no wonder...

Let's reword it. Everyone professional or laymen alike that has seen the Barcos [except one person that saw it with a thick layer of dust on the lenses and plate glass who lives by the CRT seq. cr. agenda] exclaims how dramatically better it is to what has been shown in the last 4 years cedia, ces, and infocomm. The closest possible thing to this projector unmodified is the 250K Runco sc-1, modified it is the DPI Lighting reference,the SUPREME projector last CEDIA. There were Sony and JVC projectors with 15K-1 at CEDIA but there was no way they came close to the Lighting Reference. I had until last shoeast no projector agenda and have been to most shows for the past 3 years and have also been to 2 hollywood facilities,for screens at this point until I compare the SMX to the Torus (I will be remaining screen agnostic).

Sequential contrast out of the DCI spec. is forbidden by TI in an Iron Clad agreement with the manufacturers.

5k-1( without sacrificing uniformity) and perhaps 6k-1 (sacrificing uniformity with the delta apertures) is as far as you are going to see for a LONG TIME. SO EVERYONE better adjust your thinking there. For those that enjoy this latest Barco and other upcoming .98 dci projector with servo zoom lens the extreme anso contrast delivery of MTF (YES HIGH MTF with propietary gamma =VIRTUAL 70mm).

Soon enough these projectors with the modifications will be available to be seen by those interested in aproximating 70mm at home. In the meantime I don't believe that the Imax and dci theaters are the best way to see these projectors.

Perhaps when/if Art gets to see 2 or 3 of these things in action in one seating then you will accept.

As much as some of you pride yourselves of being ardent videophiles (for movie watching purposes - not anaglyphic photography) the King Of Miami is the most ardent. He is ONE TOUGH CUSTOMER fliying himself on his own transatlantic jet to every show, he has been in every A list private screening room in Hollywood, gets VIP seats at Cannes, and prided himself in his former 100,000seq 11' wide G-90 Torus rig. Wolfgang too had G-90 stacks, so please stop preaching to the choir when you have not seen the other side of the coin.

NO ONE HAS spent more resources, time and effort on this quest than Ugo. Last CEDIA he even told someone at Runco during the vx-55 demo that started presenting their shpeal on Contrast:

Runco: We know contrast we have even developed a new iniciative to measure contrast in our products...

Ugo: Sorry to interrupt but your contrast ain't that high -your blacks here are grey.

At which point they tried to readjust the projector to no avail.

At CEDIA he did prefer the contrast of the DPI units, however the lighting reference was too big, so he had settled for the imperfect color of the Titan Reference.

When I called him and told him that I had something a magnitude better he said "naw".

I told him to prepare himself to seing the finest image he had ever seen. The results were an unqualified endorsement ...



That says it all... In the meantime I would suggest a forum NEW RULE: That people that want to discuss projectors contrast ratios in excess of 6,500 to 1 please GET OUT OF DODGE.

Since TI DCI spec forbids contrast ratios in excess of 2,000+-10%, and there is a limit to how much this can be modded, IT SERVES NO PURPOSE BUT TO DRAIN VITAL RESEARCH ENERGIES to bring this unrealistic discussions, please keep them on the other 5 forums. It is always the same insensitive people harping on this non reality.

We will get there. The question is how long will it take? You don't even need to bring CRT into the discussion as that was the last thought on my mind when I posted. Even I am aware of the day when CRT will no longer be viable but I am spoiled. With that being said lets drop CRT from the discussion.

I'm looking foward to hearing Art's opinion and I'm all for progress but to say that on off contrast ratio is irrelevant is not true to me. Heck, I'd even like to be able to check one of your setups out one day as you progress. I'm not against 3 chip, I was very impressed with Art's setup when I saw it and still to this day feel the same way. 3 chip is the real deal, I admit it.

However, I'll take 100K to one contrast over 10K to one any day as it relates to my above statement.

I can tell that you are very passionate about your work and I applaud you for it but cmon', you cant be serious about that statement regarding contrast, and I'm sure that Ugo is very happy with what you have accomplished but I want this technology to progress, not regress. Bring on the CONTRAST!

If it's been accomplished before, there is no reason why it cannot be applied to today's technology.

Cliff
post #173 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

but the hole discusion about on off cr.make for many people read here anyway no sense because the have not the right room condition to see more than 2000:1 on off
anyway.
and for those that have the right room like art they should be fine with over 5000:1 on off.

Wolf, but what if you do have a room that can realize the kind of on/off performance that 100k can provide? Could you imagine having that kind of performance out of the Barco? Pumping the kind of light you are and dropping to a scene in a movie from upper IRE to low IRE for an extended period of time (like the underwater scene in Sky Captain) wouldn't you prefer the ability of having better blacks than what 4 or 5K to one contrast could provide?

Would Laser technology bring us this kind of performance with a DCI projector?

Cliff
post #174 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanohv View Post

.....When will you get your DP2000, NEC NC1600, or 2K DLP projector Art ?

Since the HT 5000 has nearly perfect panel alignment, can do 601 and 709 color (the content we have right now) , in excess of 6000:1 FF CR and enough light output to give over 20fL on a 14' wide screen (mine) I have no need for the Barco. If I had Wolfgang's needs regarding projection I'd ask his advice.

Art
post #175 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr View Post

We will get there. The question is how long will it take? You don't even need to bring CRT into the discussion as that was the last thought on my mind when I posted. Even I am aware of the day when CRT will no longer be viable but I am spoiled. With that being said lets drop CRT from the discussion.

I'm looking foward to hearing Art's opinion and I'm all for progress but to say that on off contrast ratio is irrelevant is not true to me. Heck, I'd even like to be able to check one of your setups out one day as you progress. I'm not against 3 chip, I was very impressed with Art's setup when I saw it and still to this day feel the same way. 3 chip is the real deal, I admit it.

However, I'll take 100K to one contrast over 10K to one any day as it relates to my above statement.

I can tell that you are very passionate about your work and I applaud you for it but cmon', you cant be serious about that statement regarding contrast, and I'm sure that Ugo is very happy with what you have accomplished but I want this technology to progress, not regress. Bring on the CONTRAST!

If it's been accomplished before, there is no reason why it cannot be applied to today's technology.

Cliff

How dare you communicate logically and rationally !
post #176 of 289
I think it is pretty safe to say that a DCI compliant projector modded to provide 5000:1 is as good as it gets.
CINERMAX or W.Mayer
Have you talked with any of the technology companies about the possibility of a 4DLP projector in the future. That could provide all the qualites you know and love and make all the worshippers of black happy.
post #177 of 289
Art,

Now that Cliff's party affiliation has been called; with the upcoming elections coming up, he does not want handicap the party any further...
post #178 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

Sorry Peter, but such "killer phrases" should be exclusiv to high end audio voodoo dealers, cable-listeners and accoustic-ignorants. By the year 2008, we all should have stopped to believe in "wonders" and take matters purely unbiased by what they are.....and most matters can be measured, if not all....so numbers should all our best friends.

The only difference with such numbers is that you e.g. prefer one, say ANSI or Light Source Spectrum, over another. You clearly cannot be serious, when you try to persuade people into "shortcommings", because they do not follow your own preferences, taste or bias.

PS: and really, you should be able to afford an entry level DSLR (Nikon or Canon) for better screen shots

Wolfgang said it best, numbers are not the whole picture. Regarding the camera I think it is just lack of know how on the operator end.

lookie here:



Very Blade Runnery,no?
post #179 of 289
Quote:


i will give up to tell people here that numbers are important but not tell the hole story

Numbers are cold and unbiased. Numbers will not be able to tell about personal taste and preference. In some cases we do not even have all numbers yet. For example a DCI projector will look clearly better due to the costly high resolution and multi coated optics used, an issue we already know from our 9 inch CRT USPL ages. How can you grade in numbers their "quality share" of the picture you see when compared to a cheaper 1080P single chip design for 8K dollars, like you can use lumen or Ansi or black level ? Why not make up a number that will tell anybody right away the difference in quailty ? In theory you could easily make up all numbers needed to fully describe what you see. I have not a single doubt about it.

See, nobody minds that such expensive designs, like the Christie and Barco are superior, but as many have already stated here, comments like "much better than anything" barely qualify, especially when you know that even such costly projector are just "the better compromise".
post #180 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

but the hole discusion about on off cr.make for many people read here anyway no sense because the have not the right room condition to see more than 2000:1 on off anyway.

I have a lot of respect for you, but we have disagreed on this one for years and although I have pointed out the fault in claiming people have to have some special room to see more than 2k:1 on/off CR, I have never seen you actually explain why you keep claiming that. The math is pretty simple. The only thing that can kill on/off CR is other lighting. White walls don't affect it (unless there is other lighting), so why do you keep claiming this thing about 2k:1 on/off CR? Heck, I have a receiver at the back of a setup in white walled rooms (in a corner facing forward probably close to 30' back in the 2nd of 2 room that are together) and the light from the displays on it don't light up my screen as much as a projector at over 30k:1 (using filters to simulate) on a blackout. I did put some neutral density filter material over the display on it because even though it doesn't light up the screen as much as any projector I've ever had on a blackout, there is still some light from it.

A friend had a CRT in a largely white room and the difference between 15k:1 from a digital and about 700k:1 from his CRT was obvious. The reason being that he controlled his lighting.

Please, this time explain why you keep claiming this thing about a 2k:1 room for on/off CR when on/off CR isn't changed by white walls unless you have other lighting (since 1.1x/1.1y is the same ratio as x/y, so 10% reflections on both 100 IRE and 0 IRE don't change on/off CR other than very minor color issues that are possible).

Do you think that most people here have enough lights on in their room that they can't control to make things above 2k:1 worthless? Or that they have light streaming in from outside or from other rooms all the time (even at night)?

As far as the discussion, hopefully nobody thinks that there isn't room for improvement with these DCI projectors in the area of on/off CR, even if they put out the best images anybody has ever seen. There are a lot of things that go into images and on/off CR is only one of them. TI mandating some lower number for now doesn't change that improvement in this area is possible and will likely come with time. It may take a competitor coming up with something that beats them in this area and also can do more of what TI's product can do now in order to push TI to go for more true to life absolute blacks though.

--Darin
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