Barco Cinema Projektor DP 2000 with 4000 Watt Xenon Lamp at Home - Page 7

It is true that no matter how much on/off CR you have, low ANSI CR can kill your CR in mixed scenes and the light room is about killing ANSI CR (unless you have other lighting). So, the crossover point where on/off CR matters more moves down (toward darker). But, over 2k:1 would still matter in some mixed scenes even in a white room, just less of them from low ANSI CR (either from the projector or from the room). For instance, using this calculator here:

http://www.cinemablend.com/new.php?id=8853

to estimate different simultaneous CRs, if I use 100k:1 on/off, 500:1 ANSI, and 2.5 gamma with projector A, while using 2k:1 on/off, 500:1 ANSI, and 2.5 gamma with projector B, and use a high .1 for room reflections, then for a 10%stim/0%stim checkerboard that estimates 19:1 simultaneous CR for projector A and 8.7:1 simultaneous CR for projector B. I could use a 2.2 gamma for projector B to get 10.5:1 simultaneous CR there. In both case the 5%/0% checkerboard has over 3x the simultaneous CR with projector A as B, even in what would have to be a pretty light walled room for .1 reflections. That is enough reflections to take the ANSI CR down to about 20:1, even though the projectors could do 500:1.

I have little doubt that if the same projector was setup with either 100k:1 native on/off CR or 2k:1 native on/off CR and all else was equal, while done in a white room, pretty much anybody here who understands video much at all would be able to see the visible difference that 100k:1 would bring, after being shown various material. TI can't get there now as far as I know, but a 4 panel system could get pretty close and exceed 100k:1 overall (where native vs dynamic blurs some as there is smaller native in small zones).

Somebody else posted that there is work being done on a liquid iris with multiple rings where each ring can be charged to make it dark. I thought he said that was for DCI. The ambient safety light limitation is an issue outside of homes, but from what I've seen it sure looks to my eyes like there are theaters where the DLP projector looks like it is by far the limiting factor for on/off CR. I don't believe that the lighting I've looked at in at least one theater while viewing a movie was coming even close to lighting up the screen as much as it was lit up on blackouts. There is a new theater around here with lots of lighting and in that case it might be lighting up the screen that much. Watching The Ruins was pretty pitiful with the whole theater pretty much lit up. Basically ruined parts of it IMO. A friend and I had just come from being disappointed with about 6k:1 dynamic from one projector in his theater since it didn't do as well with dark stuff as an RS2, but that 6k:1 killed the experience we got in that theater with the 2k DLP as far as how realistic the dark scenes looked. That may be the last time I go to see a dark movie at that theater.

--Darin

Another point in seq cr if you look in the papers repository thread 35mm only has 5k-1, if you are trying to better it all it takes is 5.1k-1.

I fully agree that you can see the difference between 2K:1 and 100K:1 CR in a white room. The question is how significant the difference is and is it important?

The ambient light level that's cited in the DCI spec document is .01fL as the upper limit. I don't know what the actual level range would be in a large sample of theaters.

How about video of tropical locations, like you like to point out with color? I understand the thing about film capture and playback, but that is a limitation of the technology and I've also been told that there has been film that could do much higher (at least before it gets scratched). The CRT monitors used for mastering the material we get should be much higher than 5k:1 and the person mastering can choose to encode things at video 16 (video black) or higher.

I doubt that film does the ANSI CRs these DCI projectors can do, but most of us wouldn't want to degrade those ANSI CRs to get down to film.

--Darin

We're on a forum where many people will pay a lot for minor improvements and consider things important that most people wouldn't. I think we basically agree, but I don't want people thinking that the differences wouldn't be visible unless they have some special room. They just need to control other lighting, which shouldn't be all that difficult for most people in their homes (at least at night).

--Darin

As wolfgang mentioned in another thread BARCO has an Iron clad agreement with TI not to reduce the apertures past the TI DCI spec of 2k-1. There is no way around that. There is the ilumination issue, and the ehat issue for their designs = reliability safety factor. There is just the one venue for obtaining the SuperKontrast mods that I know with the full warranty, I know because I was involved in some of the negotiations, it was not easy to accomplish, there was significant legwork, and cr increments are being handled conservatively and cautiously. One at a time. First the SK MKI we monitored and then felt comfortable with augmenting another 1k, but this time it's taking the lens iris, an additional 10% reduction in the plate and the native white to d65 alignment and software setup.

That is it, you can't go past that, maybe another k if you go from an O to a delta aperture but your uniformity will go down big time (in a .98 scenario).


Andreas, I am not opposed to a number that quantifies image quality but it has to be handicapped by factors such as lamp source, spectral reponse, quality of lens, quality of optics,; minutea beyond basic specs.

The best thing is a panel of experts which is what we are essentially assembling here in this lone subforum. The Superkontrast right now is the overall winner let's give it a 9 on a scale of 1-10.

With an aperture plate before the chips and one in the lens you might get some more if the heat could be handled, but even besides that, this is just the current chips and other technology. They could go much higher with other chips or something like a 4 panel projector, where one panel controls the light to the other 3 in zones. Requires quite a bit of software to do something like that where there isn't one-to-one pixel mapping from the first chip to the next 3, but that kind of work is already being done with flat panel displays that have overlapping zone systems like this.

The TI rule is just marketing, legal, etc. and isn't because technology won't be able to go much higher.

I would like to see another company like Sony pressure TI to higher on/off CRs for these, but Sony doesn't seem to be competing that well in this market. TI knows that higher on/off CRs help (other than where there is a bunch of other light on in the room or coming into the room that kills it) because they are involved in home theater projectors that go much higher than 2k:1 on/off CR and show the improvement from that.

--Darin

Sir, fantastic setup!

I was wondering what digital cinema server you are using to store the digital presentations.

Have you though about a "REAL-D" 3d playback system for playing back the REAL-D encoded films?

Has it been difficult to acquire the digital cinema films for your systems? Are you receiving them Via HardDrive or satellite down-link?

Again Fantastic system and if these questions have been asked or answered before I deeply apologize.

I rest my case.

So Darin, thanks again for that big dog (the tapes). El mucho appreciated.

Cliffy

Some shrinkage compared to yours Wolfgang but still pretty cool.

Art

Looks like that flight must have hit a flock of foul mid air. Theres something stuck to the propeller blade

Yea Cliff told me to get over further into the picture and just then bang I was hanging there. I kept my composure just long enough for the picture.

Art,

Steroids are bad for the pecker, you know?

Peter,
I'm pretty proud of the fact that I've been lifting for over thirty years and have never touched them. I know me, if I did I could never go off ,I'd have to find the next better thing. I know myself too well.

Art

Hey HDCP card out in June 1st.

No wonder Odyssey confessed being intimidated by your size in one of your tete-a-tetes'.

looks like WOlfgangs blacks are a tiny bit crushed.

Remember when screen shots took long exposure times, and you needed special gear for them.

Maybe, I did not notice, but look at those whites on the plane and clouds, nary one bit of UHP green.

BTW SuperKontrast MKII projected sequential cr ratio now > 6k-1, with new contrast level we have decided not to procede with the CP2000mr cr enhancement research [code name FarbenMeister aborted].

Another spot in the Barco has been found so The SK MKII will be sporting twin (2) ap's in the lightube. Rubbing hands in anticipation. We will have intrumentation readout photographs this time to prove both CR's @D65 to the skeptics.

My biggest challenge with the Barco is still designing for the damned CONVERGENCE ACCESS [see attachment] It's from the side and from the top of the PJ.

With this kind of contrastS (>6K-1, =/< 900 ANSI CR) this projector will have better sequential than common 35mm stock by a decent margin; not to mention ANSI and MTF.

The new dual apertures are being modelled this time around, with the MKI we just built three at random.

White point /gray scale tracking are excellent on this projector.The filtered lamp probably has something to do with it.

Art

I am sure your instrumentation shows that, but with uhp versus xenon comparisons theere are different whites. Look at the plane and the clouds, this is the type of difference I have been claiming to see for years.

Absolutely not. Like Simon Cowell says, "Sorry!".

It's the camera. Not the image.

G90 Stack:



Sim 2 HT5000:



Wolfgang's Barco:



You should never base colors on a screenshot to what is actually on the screen. To many variables.

Cliff

The instrumentation does indeed show that all along the gray scale is right on.

Cliff is right, it looks like his G90 as far as color when calibrated (same camera).

I can certainly admit that it may look different but correct as far as 709 primaries and white point is another story.

I hate to get into this in Wolfgang's thread he deserves better, but halfway across the earth,two different cameras, vastly different rooms and footlambert values,different calibrations and color space set ups those two images look almost scary close.

Art

No, screenshots can be very deceiving.

They are fun though!

So I have to ask, what about the Xenon do you feel that is superior to UHP? I've been told for years now that Xenon is better, but if an instrument is accurate in measurement and both measure the same, how could they not be the same?

If the Xenon is producing even the slightest difference in color, you would think that the difference should be measurable?

What is the DCI spec for color if I may ask? In other words, it sounds to me like it's not D6500. What is the spec for film?

Sorry for all of the questions.

Cliff

I agree.

Cliff

Hold it there are 3 different cameras, I may not be a good operator but the color pallette comes through.

The two barcos have a similar hue, saturation is different on the smaller 1600 watt with 4k-1 mod ( ive also noticed increased saturation on the 5k-1 lighting reference).

Tell tales of good colorimetry, no tint of green on sky & clouds, paper wjhite on the extrem underwing, ther are about 8 different layers of white distinguishable.

Nope. Not good enough. Need to see the original in it's full glory in focus and good resolution.