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The Official 9G Pioneer General Discussion Thread - Page 74

post #2191 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeman View Post

Yes, this is what I have read before, but has anyone actually tried streaming blu ray rips to their elites?

+1
post #2192 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeman View Post

Yes, this is what I have read before, but has anyone actually tried streaming blu ray rips to their elites?

Don't know if this helps, but I've streamed standard ripped DVDs, and WMV HD content. You can get clips here from Microsoft to play with WMV HD 720p and 1080p. Sorry, have not tried blu-ray.
post #2193 of 7982
Did someone post a manual for the 9g's yet? I thought I saw a post a while back but I did a search and could not find it, maybe I was confusing the spec sheet for a manual?
post #2194 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

With all the talk about the Oppo passing 480i via HDMI unaltered, does anyone know if the "source direct" mode on the new Pioneer Blu-ray players will do just as good a job passing DVD 480i signals UNALTERED via it's HDMI connection?

If so, that would be a great feature to have with the new G9 displays.

Not sure about the Pioneers, but per my conversation with a Sony rep the soon to be released S350 and S550 will!
post #2195 of 7982
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ercc View Post

To all those asking about the "no menu items for these functions" thing:

In the non-elites, it appears that you will be only be able to adjust the settings for these things by changing the preset picture mode. According to another thread, they did this because they added an elite feature to the regular pioneers this year (the ethernet port) and they had to change something to further differentiate their product. Anyways, each pre-set picture mode will likely offer different combination of these settings. While this arrangement is slightly annoying, I will presume that in the movie and user modes all the stupid enhancement features (CTI, DRE etc.) will be off anyway, so it won't matter much if at all. I'd take the ethernet port over the ability to turn on some strange enhancer any day. And although the loss of gamma and color temp hurts, i presume that at least one of the preset modes offers the proper combination of on/off/high/low settings for proper home theater.

My guess would be:
Dynamic: Everything set to high, or on, cool color
Standard, sports: Everything set to middle, like last year
Performance, optimum: no idea
Sports: Between Dynamic and standard
Movie, user: Warm color and middle gamma, everything else lowest setting, maybe 2 for enhancer mode

Service menu will presumably be able to alter anything for these modes fairly easily, so hopefully these settings are technically not gone, just hiding. Calibration is key, of course.

All of this is just my speculation, I'm probably wrong on some of it. But overall I'm not too worried at this point since most of that stuff was useless if you set it to the right picture mode. Robert/D-nice will have the official word.

It wasn't because of the ethernet port being added........

Golden rule of business: NEVER give your customer a feature and then take it away at a later date.

It seems as if Pioneer NA had a focus group regarding the non-Elite (probably the same dumbasses that Consumer Reports uses). Out of said focus group, a "grip" with the 8G non-Elites was that it had too many picture setting controls for the average user.

So Pioneer NA decided to create a simplified A/V menu (similar to pre-Kuro). The items listed as "No menu items for these functions" were considered "least user friendly". So, each A/V picture mode will have these features turned on in some fashion. Here is how they will be setup:


A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 1 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On

The NR features are on for every A/V mode. Optimum mode changes these settings depending on what the light/color sensor detects. Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.
post #2196 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The NR features are on for every A/V mode. Optimum mode changes these settings depending on what the light/color sensor detects. Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.

Ouch

Thanks for nice chart. Just made my pre-order decision that much tougher. Why couldn't Pioneer just given two menu systems -- "Savvy User", "Average User"?
post #2197 of 7982
Pioneer needs to be smart about this if they want to be profitable.

On the one hand, you do want products to be enough different so that customers have enough reason to go to the elite models.

On the other hand, if the difference comes with too much of a dollar difference, people may just choose to go with another manufacturer.
post #2198 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

It wasn't because of the ethernet port being added........

Golden rule of business: NEVER give your customer a feature and then take it away at a later date.

It seems as if Pioneer NA had a focus group regarding the non-Elite (probably the same dumbasses that Consumer Reports uses). Out of said focus group, a "grip" with the 8G non-Elites was that it had too many picture setting controls for the average user.

So Pioneer NA decided to create a simplified A/V menu (similar to pre-Kuro). The items listed as "No menu items for these functions" were considered "least user friendly". So, each A/V picture mode will have these features turned on in some fashion. Here is how they will be setup:


A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 1 ---------- 2 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On

The NR features are on for every A/V mode. Optimum mode changes these settings depending on what the light/color sensor detects. Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.

Wow! This should swing many people over to the Elites. I mean not being able to do something as simple as turn off DRE when you want to...dumb dumb dumb.
post #2199 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 1 ---------- 2 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On

The NR features are on for every A/V mode. Optimum mode changes these settings depending on what the light/color sensor detects. Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.


D-Nice, how big of a deal do you think this is for those of us interested in the 5020/6020? I looked back at your settings for the 5080, and the "Game" setting above looks almost identical to what you had recommended for the last generation, with the exception of NR not being capable of being turned off.

It seems like there is a fairly good mix of settings in the included A/V options. I'm assuming we can still adjust contrast, brightness, color, etc. Isn't getting those settings correct (and to the individual user's liking) more important?

I understand this is probably a disappointment for those comparing the 5020/6020 to the Elite/Signature series, but what about the rest of us that think ACL is something in your knee? Is this really a deal breaker? I'm upgrading from a 27" Sony myself.
post #2200 of 7982
Most users wouldn't even know the difference that the menu items weren't there. AVS members are probably 1%-5% of the buying public and even here we are harping on pricing and cost. Look at the Panny/Pio thread. The difference is on the AVS forum, members want the Elite for the Panny price. Out side of the AVS forum, everyone else just wants the Vizio price.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Pioneer needs to be smart about this if they want to be profitable.

On the one hand, you do want products to be enough different so that customers have enough reason to go to the elite models.

On the other hand, if the difference comes with too much of a dollar difference, people may just choose to go with another manufacturer.
post #2201 of 7982
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwheel View Post

D-Nice, how big of a deal do you think this is for those of us interested in the 5020/6020? I looked back at your settings for the 5080, and the "Game" setting above looks almost identical to what you had recommended for the last generation, with the exception of NR not being capable of being turned off.

It seems like there is a fairly good mix of settings in the included A/V options. I'm assuming we can still adjust contrast, brightness, color, etc. Isn't getting those settings correct (and to the individual user's liking) more important?

I understand this is probably a disappointment for those comparing the 5020/6020 to the Elite/Signature series, but what about the rest of us that think ACL is something in your knee? Is this really a deal breaker?

I'm not sure on how impactful these hardcoded settings will be. If I use 6 and 7G non-Elite owners as a reference, they really didn't seem to mind not having access to these features. This will be one area I'm going to thoroughly test when I get my hands on a non-Elite and Elite 9G.
post #2202 of 7982
It may swing some avs members, but in general I don't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Wow! This should swing many people over to the Elites. I mean not being able to do something as simple as turn off DRE when you want to...dumb dumb dumb.
post #2203 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Dub View Post

I suspect software will be included with the 9Gs for installation on networked PCs. Correct?

No. You just need a DLNA-capable server on your PC. Windows Media Player (10 or higher, I think with Windows Media Connect) has this feature, and there are others - TVersity and TwonkyMedia are among the few I've tried. My results using my PS3 as the client have been mostly disappointing, no experience with Pioneer's Kuro implementation...yet. Google "DLNA server" for more info.
post #2204 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by russwong View Post

It may swing some avs members, but in general I don't think so.

Can someone (Robert?) reconstruct or review from a consumer standpoint the $1000 value difference in 9G Elites versus 9G non-elites? Are the PIP features any different? Pure mode is still Elite-only right? Is this something non-elite users will miss? Will it affect judder/3:3 playback? Are there any substantive PQ differences beween the two? Does anyone think it's better to go with a 111FD for Elite 'features/difference' than a 6020 for the size?

So far all I see is side speakers, advanced ISF calibration, uncrippled Menu/picture settings, Pure mode, better graded glass selection, and having the word ELITE on your Plasma TV.
post #2205 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Golden rule of business: NEVER give your customer a feature and then take it away at a later date.

A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 1 ---------- 2 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On

Thanks D-Nice for the answer! I was about to pull the trigger on a 6020 until I saw the "no menu settings" on the spec sheet. Now I am glad I didn't. Pioneer has broken the golden rule. I can understand that they want to improve the user experience for the average users. That can be done by improving the UI, NOT taking features out all together. This is simply ridiculous.
post #2206 of 7982
I cannot believe Pioneer is taking these important user adjustments out of the 4,000 Dollar Kuro 5020 and 6,000 dollar 6020 units. It's not like a non Elite unit is a cheap generic unit, we are talking 4,000+dollars here. There is no way on Earth I will spend a extra 1 thousand dollars to get these menu items.

Now the question is, based on this information do we cancel 5020 and 6020's and move to a Panasonic 800 or comparable that offers more user adjustments?

Listen I would love to be able to spend the 5,000 plus dollars on the Elite unit, but 4,000 is already way beyond what I wanted to spend and to have crucial features removed seems like a big slap in the face and a good reason to have to choose a competing product. I wish it was not so, really I do.


post #2207 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

It seems as if Pioneer NA had a focus group regarding the non-Elite (probably the same dumbasses that Consumer Reports uses). Out of said focus group, a "grip" with the 8G non-Elites was that it had too many picture setting controls for the average user.

Half of the problem is that the Owner's Manual and on-screen option descriptions are so bare-boned as to totally confuse the unsophisticated user. For example, DRE is described as follows in the Owner's Manual: "Emphasizes the contrast on images so that the difference between brightness and darkness becomes more distinct." Hey, that sounds good, right? I'd better set it on High! It's not until you land here and start getting into benefits/drawbacks analysis that the owner can develop any real sense of the impacts these features can and do have on picture quality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.

Since the owner theoretically isn't supposed to be going in there at all, I guess from Pioneer's perspective there's some basis for doing that. But what about the limitations this decision imposes upon the professional calibrator?

I have to say I think they choked big-time on this one. While I'm not saying that my 5080 can provide a better picture - or even one as good as - the new 5020, it's already won the battle of adjustability in a rout. For that reason alone I'm glad I bought an 8G.

That said, I certainly wouldn't see this as a big enough reason to cancel a non-Elite 9G order. Non-Elite 9G buyers will still be getting one hell of a display.
post #2208 of 7982
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nk1 View Post

Now the question is, based on this information do we cancel 5020 and 6020's and move to a Panasonic 800 or comparable that offers more user adjustments?

Why would you do that? The non-Elites STILL offer more user adjustments compared to the 800u.
post #2209 of 7982
Thanks D-Nice for posting the genesis of the new approach to the settings for the non-Elite 9Gs.

Having done design & usability testing for software products, the golden rule is "know thy user".

Hopefully Pioneer has an accurate profile of their target user for the non-Elite line and used it to recruit for their focus groups. Even though I am an informed Pio/Kuro user, I'm by no means an expert user and may not even fit the target user profile.

I am still confused by the effects of settings such as ACL, Black Level, Enhancer, CTI. I assume they are there because they are important to picture quality. So, I like that they are available to me for the day when I want to dig in and learn a bit more. I bought the Kuro Elite to get the best picture quality.

I use D-Nice's settings and like that he has done the vetting for me. Looks like Pioneer is taking the same approach for the non-Elites. Most users don't want to be bothered. Look at how many of us rely on D-Nice. User's want products to do the thinking for them.
post #2210 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by bvh View Post

Robert, other than not having the improved black level of the 9g, can the 8G 6010 take the same full advantage of the new, soon to be released Elite BD player's special Kuro PDP output mode?

Yes sir. I very strongly recommend Pioneer's 51FD with the PDP-6010FD.

-Robert
post #2211 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Dub View Post

I had planned on purchasing a Panasonic TH-58PZ750U, then elected to wait for the yet-to-be released THX-Certified TH-58PZ800U. But after perusing this thread, other threads, and thorough research, I reconciled to a Pioneer PDP-6020FD. I ultimately concluded that the marginal increase in price can be justified by averaging it over the display's anticipated lifespan and the significant increase in video quality.

If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay for the 6020? Not that I'm in the market for one (I was for the 5020, but not anymore), but it seems that the Kuros have always bees significantly more expensive than the Panasonics, I don't think from a 58PZ800U to a 6020 would be a "marginal increase." Panasonics have always sold a lot lower than their retail price, Pioneer not so much.
post #2212 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Why would you do that? The non-Elites STILL offer more user adjustments compared to the 800u.

Well I thought that the 800 allowed a user or ISF calibrater's either via the standard menus or the Service menus to access the neccessary features to make picture changes etc.

Seems like from the analysis regarding the 5020 and 6020's being hard set on certain settings with no user or Service Menu control that it would be limited in picture changing ability. I so badly was hoping to finally get a Kuro but it still is not cheap even though the newer MSRP is nice, as a consumer buying a Rolls Royce (even if it is the mid level Rolls)I still want the ability for my Calibrator or myself to access the basic important functions of the set.

Perhaps I am totally confused and I am making a big deal out of nothing, I hope I am but the way I am reading your post describing these hard set changes with no way to change them via Service Menu. But please enlighten me.
post #2213 of 7982
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay for the 6020? Not that I'm in the market for one (I was for the 5020, but not anymore), but it seems that the Kuros have always bees significantly more expensive than the Panasonics, I don't think from a 58PZ800U to a 6020 would be a "marginal increase." Panasonics have always sold a lot lower than their retail price, Pioneer not so much.

20-30% off of MSRP (Pioneer) isn't much?

You will never see a current model Pioneer for the same price as a Panasonic. They are each targeting a different conusrmer group. Simply put:

- If one values money more than PQ, get a Panasonic. If one values PQ over money, get a Pioneer.
post #2214 of 7982
As I mentioned above, I was considering the 5020, as later this year I may buy my first big-screen TV (waiting for long). But I can't believe the picture settings. Let me get this straight. Are you guys saying that the only way to adjust picture settings is via the presets? I assume at least there are good-old R, G and B sliders right? But no individual DRE switch, and the other stuff? You cannot turn off noise reduction AT ALL? Not even in the service menu?

Is this right what I am reading? A $4000 plasma TV? I just can't believe it. I think my 13-inch Sony CRT has more settings than this.
post #2215 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post


Golden rule of business: NEVER give your customer a feature and then take it away at a later date.

It seems as if Pioneer NA had a focus group regarding the non-Elite (probably the same dumbasses that Consumer Reports uses). Out of said focus group, a "grip" with the 8G non-Elites was that it had too many picture setting controls for the average user.

So Pioneer NA decided to create a simplified A/V menu (similar to pre-Kuro). The items listed as "No menu items for these functions" were considered "least user friendly". So, each A/V picture mode will have these features turned on in some fashion. Here is how they will be setup:


A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 1 ---------- 2 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On

The NR features are on for every A/V mode. Optimum mode changes these settings depending on what the light/color sensor detects. Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.

If it was truly an issue of confusion for the end user, the sensible thing here for Pioneer would have been to go this route with a 7th A/V mode called User or Custom where one could select/change each sub-selection of the A/V mode. Then the 95-98% of the confused out there could go with the pre-defined A/V modes while those of us who prefer the best combination could set it up. Taking away any customization still feels like an elite/non-elite differentiator more than just simplifying things for the masses.
post #2216 of 7982
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nk1 View Post

Well I thought that the 800 allowed a user or ISF calibrater's either via the standard menus or the Service menus to access the neccessary features to make picture changes etc.

RGB settings are also located in the non-Elite's SM.

Quote:


Seems like from the analysis regarding the 5020 and 6020's being hard set on certain settings with no user or Service Menu control that it would be limited in picture changing ability.

I disagree. The best mode on the non-Elites will probable be Moive mode.....just like Cinema/THX mode is best on the 11G Panasonics.

Quote:


I so badly was hoping to finally get a Kuro but it still is not cheap even though the newer MSRP is nice, as a consumer buying a Rolls Royce (even if it is the mid level Rolls)I still want the ability for my Calibrator or myself to access the basic important functions of the set.

Per the focus group, these settings were most cumbersom. If you want to get you set calibrated, you really need to get an Elite anyway

Quote:


Perhaps I am totally confused and I am making a big deal out of nothing, I hope I am but the way I am reading your post describing this hard set changes I don't think I am.

I disagree with Pioneer removing something that was available in the previous generation. Other than that, I'm personally not going to pass judgement on the non-Elites until I see how they perform.
post #2217 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

20-30% off of MSRP (Pioneer) isn't much?

You will never see a current model Pioneer for the same price as a Panasonic. They are each targeting a different conusrmer group. Simply put:

- If one values money more than PQ, get a Panasonic. If one values PQ over money, get a Pioneer.

I wasn't really dissing Pioneer on the price. I did consider a 5020. I probably misspoke, so I'm sorry. I do see that the Pioneers are discounted as well. My point was that it seems to me that from a 58PZ800U to a 6020 there would be a lot of difference, that was what I was driving at.
post #2218 of 7982
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

RGB settings are also located in the non-Elite's SM.

I disagree. The best mode on the non-Elites will probable be Moive mode.....just like Cinema/THX mode is best on the 11G Panasonics.

Per the focus group, these settings were most cumbersom. If you want to get you set calibrated, you really need to get an Elite anyway

I disagree with Pioneer removing something that was available in the previous generation. Other than that, I'm personally not going to pass judgement on the non-Elites until I see how they perform.


D-Nice, Thanks for the input. Believe me I would love to have the extra couple grand to get a Elite, it just is not possible I am already pushing it pretty far for a 5020 as is.

Was hoping that a 5020 with a ISF calibration will still yield a fantastic picture beyond what is available with a Panasonic 800 with ISF cal. If not then obviously will sit the Kuro out this round, save my money and maybe when 10g comes around, they'll be enough in the bank will for a Elite.

If you still think out of the box settings for a 5020 is still better then anything from any other manufacturer (minus of course the Elites) then I will go with that. Obviously its hard to say before looking at it personally but we could have guesses based on options.

Thanks again for all your assistance and support. It is greatly appreciated.
post #2219 of 7982
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

As I mentioned above, I was considering the 5020, as later this year I may buy my first big-screen TV (waiting for long). But I can't believe the picture settings. Let me get this straight. Are you guys saying that the only way to adjust picture settings is via the presets? I assume at least there are good-old R, G and B sliders right? But no individual DRE switch, and the other stuff? You cannot turn off noise reduction AT ALL? Not even in the service menu?

Is this right what I am reading? A $4000 plasma TV? I just can't believe it. I think my 13-inch Sony CRT has more settings than this.

The cut sheets on the first page of this thread detail the available "User Menu" picture controls.
post #2220 of 7982
Just as a quick question, will you still be able to change those "presets" via the service menu?
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