The OFFICIAL Emotiva Speaker Owner's thread! - Page 12

OK. It is *vital* that you follow the instructions in the setup guide (here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895) TO THE LETTER. This includes NOT putting the mic on the sofa - vibrations transferred to the mic will cause the readings to be way off.

I can't overemphasise the importance of using the right technique for Audyssey measurements. The mic needs to be placed as advised, at ear height, on a mic stand or tripod standing on the floor, pointed vertically up to the ceiling etc. Use all positions allowed by your AVR. Personally, I would still be unhappy at a XO of 120Hz for the ERD-1s and would try to get to the bottom of it. Something is causing Audyssey to measure the -3dB much higher than it should be in reality. My own ERD-1s are positioned fairly normally in the room and the XO measured by Audyssey is 70Hz.

Are your ERD-1s wall mounted, I can't recall asking you that?

What height are they mounted at?

In what position, regarding angle from MLP to speaker (eg 90 degrees or 100 degrees) or if they are rear surrounds, where are they on the wall and are they set to BIPOLE in that case?

Can you post a rough sketch of your mic placement positions for your Audyssey calibration and also your room dimensions and seating positions etc, including the MLP? This might show up any issues in that regard.

Did you confirm by listening that all the drivers in your speakers are working properly?

And that the switches are set correctly to Right Dipole and Left Dipole - ie differently for each speaker?

Have you tested an Audyssey calibration running the ERD-1s in bipole mode, just to eliminate any potential issues with nulls affecting the readings?

A lot of questions I know, but if anyone is going to be able to help you with this problem, they will need all that sort of information in order to make an informed guess about what might be causing the problem.

Kind Regards,

Keith

If he does that he will be getting an uncorrected 'hole' in his Audyssey frequency response between 120 and 80Hz. That is a very important range and he won't want it to be uncorrected. It's OK to raise the XO from where Audyssey finds it, but never to lower it.

Kind Regards,

Keith

Agree with you Keith,

but there's gotta be something weird on his rooms and that's why I said he can return to the original Audyssey settings though.
IMO, even at 120Hz sounds way too high for that kind of speaker.

I'll have to check some things at home in order to answer all of the questions (currently at work). My direct radiators in the same location on the same stands measured at 60 or 70, which indicates it has something to do with the ERD's since that's the only change I made. I'll be able to take pictures and give more info soon. Appreciate everyone's help.

Yep, I agree. Mine report a XO of 70Hz, which is much more like what I would expect from the ERD-1s. There aren't all that many variables: there's the Audyssey setup issues (my favourite for problems like this), the speaker placement issues and the room itself. The easiest thing to test is the Audyssey setup - I've found that small differences in technique can make a big difference to results, and that it is important to always follow 'best practice' as in the Setup Guide on P1 of the Audyssey thread. That often solves problems like these at a stroke. Then there is the placement of the speakers in the room itself - Audyssey does a good job of correcting for issues but it can't work miracles as you know. HST, it's unlikely the OP has managed to find a spot in the room where the lowest frequency of the speaker is *reduced* I think. If they were being boosted I'd guess it was boundary reinforcement or similar. But Audyssey is finding his -3dB point at 120 Hz. There may be something odd about the room itself, which is why I asked for a sketch. I'm also assuming the speakers are working properly. The thing is, these are great surround speakers and it's a real shame to have them set up less than perfectly. Maybe if the OP posts some more info we can help him get to the bottom of it. Hope so.

Kind Regards,

Keith

Excellent. Look forward to seeing the room layout. If you can't do photos easily just rough out a sketch of the room with dimensions. Interesting that your direct radiators measured OK in the same spot - but if they are wall mounted bookshelf speakers there may be an element of boundary reinforcement of the lower frequencies there which should be absent from the ERD-1s (they have been designed for wall mounting). It may be an issue with the null zone of the ERD-1s which is why I suggested a test with them in bipole mode if you can. Be interesting to see what the XOs get set at if they are running as bipoles.

Kind Regards,

Keith

Not that I own a pair, but am seriously considering so I have been following the thread, I think he made mention of having his ERD's on stands like his old direct radiators as opposed to having them mounted on the wall. Could that possibly contribute to the high XOver he is experiencing when running audyssey?

Very good point. I missed that. Yes, they have been designed to be wall-mounted not to be used on stands, so they will have taken into account boundary reinforcement. By placing them in free air, the bass frequencies will be reduced because the designers intended them to have the boost that comes from being wall mounted. I bet that solves the problem for him. Assuming it's possible to wall mount his ERD-1s of course - might not be, in which case I'd recommend going back to direct radiators. Well spotted!

To your other point, I doubt you'd be disappointed with the ERD-1s, especially at their current sale price.

Kind Regards,

Keith

I missed that either Keith,

so, what if he keeps using the speakers on stands, as it is now, and just re-adjust the XO down to 80Hz, for a final test?

They definitely can't be wall mounted. Would be too bad if that were the problem. I though I read before that others used stands with these. Perhaps just moving the stands closer to the wall would help? Or do they have to be right against the wall?

Yeah I have been eyeing them for some time now, and if the IRS would stop screwing me with giving me my tax refund I would have probably had them by now. I have been meaning to ask you of your thoughts, I am also a proud onkyo owner, the 5008, and have been following that thread as well. Along with these I believe you also have the Pc12- nsd's which I am also considering. Not to get off topic here but which of the two do you think was the most significant upgrade between the ERD's and the SVS's? Both my surrounds and my sub are still left overs from a 5 year onkyo htib, and are the last remaining pieces since I have upgraded everything else.

The ERD-1 User Guide says on page 10:

"The ERD-1 surround speakers are designed to be wall mounted and come with steel mounting plates."

But it also says this on page 16:

"Note: Although you can use ERD-1 surround speakers on stands, Emotiva HIGHLY recommends wall mounting at or above ear level so the advantages of the speaker's dispersion characteristics have the most effect on your A/V system."


A bit confusing. They say they have been designed for wall-mounting, that they HIGHLY recommend wall mounting, but also that they *can* be stand-mounted too. Personally, I'd want to wall mount a speaker like an ERD-1 in just the same way that I would never want to wall mount a speaker with a rear port, for example. It's best to stay with the designer's intention.

Let's try the suggestions etc made before and see if we can get the XO down to somewhere nearer to 80Hz. The problem with crossing over at 120Hz is that the sub will be getting surround information (as opposed to just non-directional lower bass - bass below 80Hz I mean) and I just can’t see that being a great idea. Some say that we can’t localise frequencies below 100Hz so getting the ERD-1s down to 100Hz might be enough to do the trick.

Kind Regards,

Keith

I'd say the sub will make a bigger difference than the surrounds. My upgrade path would be sub first, surrounds later.

Kind Regards,

Keith

The OP has confirmed they are on stands. Hmmm. The problem with dropping the XO from 120Hz to 80Hz, as we said earlier, is the resulting uncorrected hole in his Audyssey calibration. And at a critical frequency too. I'd prefer to try every possible avenue to get the XOs closer to 80Hz before accepting that the game is over and then I'd try dropping the XO as you suggest to see if the resulting sound is acceptable. At the end of the day, it's what the system sounds like not what it measures like that is important.

Kind Regards,

Keith

For what its worth, I also do not have my ERD-1s wall mounted. They are directly to the right and left of me on stands. Not at home to check but I believe Audyessy set the XO to 80Hz.

I was thinking the same just wanted to get some other opinions as well, thank you for that. I'll have some thinking to do though as I may not want to miss on the sale, though I remember around the holidays the sale price was even cheaper. Damn indecisiveness!

It was, by $30.

+1

There's not much that's more important than a sub, but whatever is on that list, it does not include surrounds.

Interesting. There must be some difference between your setup and KK's. If we can isolate that, we can help him sort it out.

Kind Regards,

Keith

If theres anything you would like to know about my setup, or something I can check, just let me know.

Just now getting a chance to look at this further. I took a few pics with my iPhone of the ERD'. There is a pic showing their placement at 90 degrees from the MLP (which is the middle of the seating in the pic). The other two I tried to show closeups of the speakers as they sit on the stands.

I double checked the wiring and the switches, which are correctly set up for left and right dipole. Unfortunately I'm unable to wall mount, as there is no wall behind the left side surround and a tall window behind the right side surround. To give you some more on the layout of the room, the front and back walls go up to 12 feet high, and then the ceiling is vaulted to 17 feet in the center (the ceiling is flat in the center - about 4 feet in width). The listening area of the room is about 17 feet wide by 15 feet front to back. The sectional is about 2 feet off the back wall (which is basically a wall of windows).

Before I got the ERD's, I had some old Bose 4001 speakers (which I bought long ago when I was in college and didn't know anything about speakers). They were on the same stands, however I did have them further behind the listening position. I moved the stands to 90 degrees to accommodate for the dipoles. Again, even at the 120 Xover that I'm at now they sound so much better than what I had. I lowered the Xover to 80 just to see how it sounds, as one of you suggested, and that sounded good too. So I guess I'm at the point now where I hope to have these set up at the best Xover I can without negatively effecting Audyssey. Not sure if I included enough info with this post or not.

I definitely appreciate everyone's time reading this and helping me address anything that needs to be addressed with my setup. Thanks!

Just checked. Using the Marantz AV7005, Audyssey setup my ERD1-s to 60 Hz, not 80Hz like I originally reported.

I'd guess then that your room is the main factor here, although I can't see anything that would skew your results so much TBH. It may be that the ERD-1 is designed for wall-mounting and when you have a big open space behind it, you lose some of the bass from it, but that doesn't explain the one near your window. So long as you are totally confident that your Audyssey technique is good, I think you will have to accept that you have done the best you can in your room. At the end of the day, most HT setups are a bunch of compromises and we have to live with our rooms, our WAF, our budget constraints and so on. If it sounds good to you, then that is all that matters really. I'd have a play with tweaking the XOs between 120Hz and 80Hz and see if you find a setting somewhere between the two that gives a better result (ignoring the 'hole' in the Audyssey calibration). You may find that 100 Hz or 90Hz is a better solution for you. I think that is as much as you can do at present.

Kind Regards,

Keith

Thanks for the input. Would I be able to hear the hole in Audyssey that you are referring to? I will listen at different settings and leave it where it sounds best.

Maybe you wouldn't hear the 'hole'. It depends on how much correction Audyssey is applying between the 120Hz it has corrected down to and the 80Hz (or whatever) that you reconfigure it to. That depends on your speaker/room combination so there's no hard and fast rule. What will happen if you lower the XO is that you will be getting the same sound between those two frequencies as if you had never run Audyssey at all. It's not the end of the world by any means. Heck, you may not even be able to hear a difference. I'd do what you say and try listening at different settings between 120 and 80 and see if there is one that sounds better or worse to you and then leave it there and get on with enjoying your movies. After all, we all enjoyed our systems in the days before Audyssey had even been invented!

I say all this because I have run out of suggestions as to what you can do. The only other thing you could try is to pop over to the Audyssey website, go to 'Ask Audyssey" and ask Chris Kyriakakis directly what he thinks - give him all the info you gave us on here. He may have some suggestions we haven't considered.

Ultimately, what matters is if you are enjoying your movies. If you are, then I wouldn't obsess too much about it. You could try a few different mic placements with Audyssey sometime if you feel the urge to have another go, but it seems you have done all you can. Just enjoy! It's all about compromise for 95% of us anyway.

Kind Regards,

Keith

Thanks. No worries on my end. It sounds great to me so I'll figure out which setting sounds best and go with that.

If it sounds great to you, it is great! Enjoy!

Kind Regards,

Keith

Another happy ending story though

4th of July sale is going on now. I just placed an order for a pair of ERD-1s. I've been checking online for months for the right pair of surrounds. With all the great feedback on these speakers, I'm hoping I found the right ones!

I love mine! They are an excellent value, especially when they have a sale.