The OFFICIAL Emotiva Speaker Owner's thread! - Page 16

I literally just got back from Emotiva HQ's here in Franklin, TN about an hour ago and have to say that I am thoroughly impressed with the staff and the products!

Let me preface my statements by saying that I have known about Emotiva (from afar) through AVS, EmotivaLounge, and other forums for about 5 years now but have never had any first hand experience. Well, I've recently been bitten by the ever present upgrade bug and began a feverish speaker review/audition of several different manufacturers. I won't getinto any comparisons as I'm still in the process of filtering all of this newly found sonic pleasure.

Long story short, I decided to stop by the HQ not knowing whether or not it was simply a corporate building only or if they allowed any type of equipment demo to the public. So i called and was told that yes they do have a showroom for the general public. Now this isnt a Best Buy type free for all, but 2 nice home theater setups in 7.2 (with .2 more on tap)

I am by NO MEANS an audio reviewer with a bunch of beautifully placed words with all of the necessary audio jargon sprinkled on top. But after having a chance to listen to the new XRef XRT 6.2's all I can say is WOW! I went there with the intention of hearing the Ert 8.3's but sadly they didn't have any setup due to the fact that they were on closeout and they were preparing for the revamped 8.3's for next year. But if these 2nd tier towers are any indication of the Emotiva speaker heirachy, I'm in for a real treat when I finally get a chance
to audition the new ear candy slated for next year....Ert 8.3 v2??

Sorry for the longwinded post but my excitement has gotten the best of me. I obviously turned into a schoolgirl when I found out Emotiva's proximity to our home (1.6 miles) because she told I am officially a dork now. Oh well, we can't be cool ALL of the time right

Just ordered (2) erm-6.2 and (1) erm 6.3 just now. Hopefully they will be here soon so I can connect them and compare to my Def Tech Mythos One/Eight and my Pioneer FS51/C21 front threes.

Hi Folks,

Thanks to those that have helped so far in my continuing hunt for speakers for a 5.1 setup.

Am considering the following setup.

Pioneer Elite VSX-95 (old but good 5.1 surround receiver)
Paradigm ADP-190 rear channel dipoles (8 ohm)
Emotiva XRC-6.2 left, right, center (4 ohm)
SVS PB-12NSD subwoofer or Emotive X-Ref 12.

The room volume is rather large = 8000 cu ft.

Questions:

1. Do Emotiva XRC-6.2's have a neutral sound like Paradigm's ? If not, what do they sound like ?
2. Assuming I set the receivers mode switch to 4 ohms, do you see any problems with having 4 ohm left, center, right and 8 ohm rear surrounds ?
a. I have heard from one person that says this is ok. Would like additional confirmation.
3. Will this mix of speakers and receiver go well together ?
a. The Emotiva's have a lot of adjustability, so does the SVS sub.
4. Will the Pioneer be able to drive the Emotiva speakers adequately for a large room ? I think the Pioneer puts out 110 or 120 watts per channel and has reasonably high current drive capability. Your thoughts ?
5. Emotiva X-ref 12 or SVS PB-12NSD ... which should I chose and why ? What are the pro's and con's ?

I have already ordered the rear surrounds, so I'm stuck with those, but the other speakers have not been ordered yet.

Opinions, critique ? Everyone seems to be enthusiatic about the SVS sub, but I'd like to hear more opinions on the Emotiva XRC-6.2's (both positive and negative) and the Emotiva Subwoofer. It's a big investment, so I am going to deliberately over-think and over-research this :-)

- Steven

1. I've owned all of the Emotiva Reference speakers at one time or another and currently have 8.3s - 6.3 center - and ERD surrounds - and a pair of ERM-1s in the 2 channel bedroom setup. I find they reproduce music without coloring it in any way. Very similar to the Infinity IL40s I had for 10 years. Read some of the speaker reviews on the Emotiva Lounge - particularly from a guy named neekos. He's got a good ear for sound.

2. Emotiva speakers seem to be a very easy 4ohm load - you could leave the setting at 8ohm and monitor the AVR for heat - the first indication of overload.

a. I drove a pair of 8.3s and ERD surrounds with a less-than-powerful Onkyo 506 for a few weeks with no adverse affects. Center was an AV123 Bigfoot center - 8ohm.

3. It should work ok.

4. How loud do you like it? If you want to drive the speakers to reference levels all day long get an external amp. If you are like me you probably listen at 10-15db below reference. Many people consider that too loud. I like it but others don't - some listen at louder levels. Personal choice there.

5. I'd look at all sub options - sealed or ported. For music a sealed 10 or 12" sub is hard to beat. For HT a ported speaker will do better simply because it can hit the low effects with more volume.

I use 1 or 2 12" sealed DIY subs for music. For HT I kick in the ported 15" eD A5-350.

Since the 6.2 Reference speakers are on close-out sale I'd think about those if you are looking for HT speakers. Otherwise the xref-6.2 might be more to your liking. The xref speakers can be returned within 30 days - give em a try. You are only out shipping if you find they aren't for you. The Reference line are all sales final deal - no returns. For $398 a pair of them are a pretty good deal IMO. You could get stuck with worse speakers.

Thanks for the feedback Knucklehead90.

I'll check out the Emotiva Lounge again. Last time I checked, there were a lot of people asking if anyone else had auditioned the new X-ref speakers :-)

I gave some thought to the reference ERM-6.3 vs the x-ref XRC-6.2's. I like the better base extension of the x-ref XRC-6.2's on paper anyway. With the 80Hz rolloff of the ERM-6.3's, I would need to set the LEF filter at 120Hz give or take a bit. That's a bit high. Expect some sounds from deep male voices, etc will bleed into the subwoofer when they should be coming from the center channel or main speakers. I like the 45Hz rolloff for the XRC-6.3's. That would allow a LEF crossover at 80Hz.

For sub's, I will use it for 70% movies, 30% music. I can only get a single sub past the missus, so I need to choose the best compromise.

The reference line of Emotiva speakers seem to be of slightly better quality than the x-ref, I just wish they hadn't read the THX spec and decided to target a low end rolloff frequency of 80Hz.

- Steven

No that's not right. The ERM 6.3s are THX specification speakers, designed to be crossed over to a subwoofer at 80hz.

(I assume you mean by 'LEF filter' the crossover frequency of the mains to sub? If you meant to say LPF of LFE filter, that has no bearing on the crossover from the mains to the sub - the LPF if LFE is, as the name suggests, a filter, not a crossover and affects solely the .1 LFE channel. It should always be set at 120Hz as there can be content in the .1 channel up to 120hz).


Theres's no doubt that the ERM 6.3s are superior speakers to the X-Ref range.

But why do you dislike the THX spec? The whole point of the spec and the design of the 6.3s is that they are meant to be used with a good quality sub and crossed over at 80Hz, as per the THX spec. In my system they work superbly like this. This is the whole point of using a sub - the sub has been purpose-designed and built to handle low frequencies, hence crossing over to it from 80hz down. The amp in the sub has the power to give high SPLs at low frequencies and using it in this way creates greater headroom for your amps to power your main speakers, and also lets the main speakers do what they do best - the mid and higher frequencies.

To be honest, I've never used a sub before. My current media room has main speakers with a 3db rolloff point at 25Khz.

Let's be careful with terminology. All crossovers are essentially analog filters (1st order, 2nd order, 3rd order, butterworth, etc). These filters simply pass the frequency bands that are appropriate for each speaker and filter out (attenuate) any signals that are not in the pass band. I thought the LFE channel in a surround processor is essentially a digital (DSP) equivalent of a crossover (i.e. filter). Is this not the case ?

It was my limited understanding that when using a sub with a surround processor (built into the receiver) that we should disable the crossover in the subwoofer (use bypass inputs if available) and let the surround processor LFE filter handle this function.

Using the LFE filter set at 120hz while using a subwoofer crossover that is set to 80Hz does not make sense to me. That implies that frequencies from 80Hz to 120Hz will be sent to the subwoofer. However, the subwoofer crossover is essentially a "low-pass-filter" that will rapidly attenuate the signals above 80 hz. If the LFE prevents signals below 120Hz from being sent to the main speakers (left, center, right), then much of the spectral content from the 40Hz to 120Hz band will be eliminated.

I'll admit that I haven't given this much thought yet and haven't dug into how a subwoofer should be configured in the presence of a surround processor. Without a surround processor, the crossovers in the mains and subwoofer should be set to be the same value in order to steer the appropriate frequency bands to the right speaker.

- Steven

Hmm ... I am trying to educate myself now.

Found this link http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

Am busy digesting the contents of the link above.

You're confusing the word 'crossover' as it used when talking about the circuit inside a speaker that handles the separation of the bass and treble (and possibly the mid) frequencies. That has nothing to do with the term 'crossover' when it used to describe the bass management in a speaker system where some frequencies are directed by the AVR or AVP to the subwoofer and some are directed to the mains/surrounds. It is the latter use that is under discussion here with regard to bass management in a system designed to 'cross over' the frequencies from the total spectrum at, say 80Hz, in connection with a TXH spec speaker such as the ERM 6.3.

In a system using a speaker like the 6.3, the AVP will direct all frequencies above 80Hz to the mains and all frequencies below 80Hz to the sub if the crossover is set to 80Hz (let's ignore slope for a moment to keep it simple). As you can see, this has nothing to do with Butterworth or Linkwizt Riley and so on.


The LFE channel is a discrete channel - the .1 in 5.1. It is no different to any other channel (in principle) - e.g. the left channel or the right surround channel.


Yes this is correct but has no bearing on what you have said before it. When you have bass management in an AVR or AVP it is essential to disable any crossover management in the sub or you will be effectively crossing over twice and this will cause problems. The sub crossover should be set to its highest setting if it does not have a switch to simply disable it. There is no such thing as a surround processor "LFE filter".


Nor to me. I am not sure what you mean because you are not using the commonly understood terminology. What do you mean when you say "LFE filter". A filter is not the same thing as a crossover. A filter does what its name suggests - it filters. For example, a Low Pass Filter set to 50Hz simply passes frequencies below 50Hz - it filters out all the others above it. A crossover hands over some frequencies to something else - for example if you cross over your main speakers at 80Hz, then it hands all the frequencies below 80hz to the sub.


No - it is essential to understand and differentiate between a filter and a crossover.


A filter rapidly attenuates. A cross over does not attenuate - it separates one set of frequencies from another as I have explained above.


You are very confused - I have explained it as best I can. Read what I have said and think about it and you will get it I am sure. You may be confusing a bass management crossover with the LPF of LFE - this is the Low Pass Filter of the Low Frequency Effects channel (see my earlier post for a description) and is nothing at all to do with what we are discussing.


It's simple. In the AVP you decide at which frequency you want to send (cross over) the signal to the subwoofer. Commonly this is 80hz. You select 80hz as the crossover frequency in the AVP - it then directs everything from 80Hz and below to the sub and everything from 80hz and above to the mains (ignoring slope for simplicity's sake).


Without a surround processor you can't have 5.1 sound so I am not sure where you are going with that line of thinking. Are you talking about speaker design? That would make sense of your last sentence, if you were thinking of a speaker crossover circuit which splits the frequencies between the tweeter and the woofer. But we are discussing bass management - that's where we started because you said, wrongly, that if you bought the ERM 6.3s you would have to cross them over (to the sub) at 120Hz. You wouldn't - that would cause all manner of problems such as bass localisation for one thing. You’d set the AVP crossover to 80Hz for a THX design like the 6.3.

Hi Kieth,

I certainly misunderstood some of the key concepts. After reviewing your posting and doing some other reading, I am beginning to understand better.

What I've learned so far (and I am sure I'll learn more soon :-)) :

1. The LFE channel is completely separated from the other audio information on DVD's, etc. It contains whatever information was placed there by the audio engineers, and is limited to 120Hz and below.
2. A separate LFE channel was needed so that extra gain could be applied to the information in this channel (10db according to the various audio standards) to provide the "punch" for explosions, etc.
3. Managing low frequencies in a multi-speaker HT setup adds additional complexity to the picture.
4. Since many HT speakers are not full range, a subwoofer is generally used to provide support for both the LFE effects channel and the lower frequencies present in the main audio channels.
5. The combination of LFE + low frequency management is called "bass management" by most folks.
6. The AV processor "usually" provides for complete bass management.
- It identifies the LFE channel audio and sends it to the subwoofer channel
- It also provides a crossover function to filter out low frequency information from the main audio channels and send that information to the subwoofer.
- This is usually accomplished with either digital or analog filters (low pass filter for the subwoofer and a high pass filter for the midrange and above for the main speakers). These filters are called crossovers in the audio industry.
- The appropriate amount of boost (or gain) is applied to the LFE channel information separately from the low frequency sounds obtained from the main channels.

So ... here is what I believe I understand so far:

1. The LFE channel contains information from 120Hz and below by design.
2. What frequencies from the main channel end up at the subwoofer depends on the low pass crossover filter settings. And visa versa for the frequencies that get set to the main speakers.
3. The AV receivers usually perform the crossover functions digitally. This typically yields a higher quality result as digital signal processing is not impacted by the parasitic elements in real world components that degrade the signals in analog crossovers. An example of unwanted parasitics are resistances inside capacitors (ESR), etc. If the receiver is performing the crossover filtering functionality, then the low pass filter (crossover) in the sub should be bypassed, or set to a frequency well above the crossover setting used in the receiver.

What does all of this mean in real life ? Crossover filters do not have a infinite slope on their low pass and high pass filters. Also, due to the nature of filters, the steeper the slope on the filter functionality, the more gain variations we will see in the pass band of the filter (pass band = the frequencies that are "passed" by the filter in contrast to those frequencies that are attenuated (or "filtered out")). This is basic filter theory and I'll skip on adding additional details here as it will be a distraction to the main topic.

So ... bass management is kind of ugly. One has to be very careful how the system is set up.

For the specific example of Emotiva where the main speakers have a 2db roll-off point of 80 Hz, here is what I think the setup should look like if enough controls are available on the AV processor:

1. The subwoofer crossover should be bypassed so it can receive all LFE channel effects up to 120Hz.
2. The high pass crossover filters in the AV processor that handle the signals going to the main speaker channels should be set at 80 Hz. Ditto for the low pass filter for the main channel low frequencies that will be mixed with the LFE channel information and sent to the subwoofer.
3. The net result is that the signal to the subwoofer gets +10db on the 120Hz LFE channel information + additional low frequencies from the main channel set by the crossover cut-off frequency (which can be less than 120 hz ... for example ... 80hz to match the capabilities of the main speakers).

The challenge here is that there will be a loss in signal gain in the region around 80Hz due to the filtering that is being applied in the crossovers. I.e. a dip in the complete full range audio response of the entire speaker system (20Hz to 20khz). If we plotted the frequency response graph for the entire speaker system (mains + subwoofer), we would see a dip in the 80 hz region. This is of course subject to room effects and might or might not been seen in an actual home setting. An equalizer could be used to pre-compensate for this dip.

Last comments:

Kieth, there is no difference between a crossover and a filter. A crossover "is" a filter.

There are three basic types of filters. Low pass, high pass, and band pass. Low pass filters pass signals less than the cut-off frequency value, high pass filters pass signals above the cut-off frequency, and band pass filters are a combination of a low pass filter and a high pass filter. Only signals in the pass-band between the lower cut-off frequency and the upper cut-off frequency are passed. Filters never completely eliminate signals, they merely attenuate the signals (reduce their relative amplitude), hopefully the signals are attenuated to the point where we can no longer hear them.

Filters are never perfect (digital or analog). Let's talk about a low pass filter to illustrate. A real world low pass filter begins to attenuate signals in the pass band prior to the desired cut-off frequency. The slope of the frequency response graph increases beginning at the cut-off frequency. There is also another ugly problem. As we make the slope of the frequency rolloff steeper, the more the signals in the pass band are perturbed by gain variations. In other words, the more 'ideal' the filter is outside the pass band (steep cut-off slope), the less ideal the signals in the pass band become (the frequency response graph becomes less "flat". It will have "ripples" in it for lack of a better phrase). Adding more "poles" and "zeros" into the filter response (sorry, a bit of electrical engineering theory is creeping in) can help mitigate this effect to some degree at the cost of adding more expensive inductors, capacitors and resistors into the analog filter. That's one of the reasons why higher end speakers have less gain variation across the audio band ... they tend to use more expensive "higher order" crossover filters with 2nd, 3rd, and sometimes 4th order filters to help flatten the pass band while increasing the roll-off slope. Other filter architectures are sometimes used such as butterworth, etc, to help this problem as well, but the basic limitations of filter theory apply to them as well.

Thanks a lot for your help Keith. I understand filter design very well (I have an electrical engineering background), but I had no familiarity with what was being done in the home theater space in terms of LFE channels, etc. Am beginning to quickly put together a better picture.

I was pretty confused, but the information you provide helped me get started on understanding this better. Thanks for your patience and for taking the time to respond in great detail.

- Steven

Promptly received my (2)6.2 and 6.3 this week. Now to order 26" stands from racksandstands.com They should be here next week. Found some transdeco stands that closely match my audio rack. Can't wait to get this up and running! Thank God I have a dedicated HT and my second setup that is being replaced is pretty good too....

Hi Joeyvaz,

Good luck with your 6.3 + 6.2 purchase. Perhaps your decision process will help me.

I have a 1993 vintage Pioneer Elite VSX-95. Dolby prologic receiver (via custom DSP), 125watt rating into 8 ohms on all channels (conservative).

My surrounds will be Paradigm 190's (8 ohms unfortunately) and I'm debating on the following options for the left, center, right configurations:

1. 3x Emotiva ERM-6.3
2. 3x Emotiva ERM-6.2
3. 1x Emotiva ERM-6.3 (center), 2x Emotiva ERM-6.2's (left, right).

It looks like you went with option 3 ? Was there a technical reason why ? Space limitations ? Budget ? A combination of factors ?

I need to pull the trigger on my Emotiva choice soon before they run out of stock on the clearance sale (assuming my receiver can handle the mix of 4 and 8 ohm speakers).

Can you share your decision process ?

If anyone else has an opinion, feel free to chime in.

Thanks,

Steven

Hi - good stuff. That article you linked me to was a good one but unnecessarily complicated for what you need to know at this stage, which was basically about bass management in an AVR.


You have been busy Yes, you are pretty much on the money there.


Yes.


Yes. In AVRs it's just called the 'crossover setting' - forget this low pass business - it will confuse people.


Yes.



Yes, but it's fairly simple if the AVR has some sort of bass management, which I believe even the lowliest models do. Setting the crossovers can also be simplified by an automated room EQ system such as Audyssey MultEQ but that is another story


Yes. Either set the switch on the sub to OFF or turn the knob to the highest setting.


Almost. You are right in principle but AVRs don't have High pass and Low Pass settings for this. They just have a setting called 'Crossover' and all you need top do is decide at which frequency you want the bass redirected to the subs. 80Hz is a good initial setting point for this for various reasons. Many prop,e just set 80Hz and forget it. Some experiment with slightly lower or higher settings.


Yes!


This is theoretically true and, as you suggest, may nor may not be a problem in the real world. An auto-EQ system, if it is properly designed, like Audyssey MultEQ, will (should) take care of this. If not, and if the user has access to measuring gear, then some systems allow some tweaking of the curve here, but this is advanced stuff and forms a whole new subject of discussion


Yes there is - a filter is 'half a crossover' if you like. As you know it is perfectly possible to stick a very Low Pass filter into a system to cut out really low, infra-bass frequencies (for example). Nothing there is being 'crossed over' - the frequency is simply being filtered, or attenuated if you will below the designed point of the LPF used. A crossover, by very definition of the word, splits a frequency range into two (at least) parts and 'crosses' some frequencies to one place and some to another, depending again on the designed notional frequency at which the XO operates.


I have snipped your comments about filter design as they are not really relevant to the discussion here, which is about bass management and the crossover frequency which needs to be set in an AVR to divert some of the bass from the mains to the sub.


No problem buddy. You are a quick learner!



Again, no problem. These forums are a great way of exchanging ideas and information aren't they!

There is very little difference between the 6.2 and 6.3. I've done extensive listening to both - switching from one to the other while in mono mode. They sound nearly the same to me. A bit better mid range for the 6.3 - the 4" mid driver helps. The 6.3 makes a very good center speaker - dialog is very clean and clear. You can also use the 6.2 as a center speaker - use 3 of them for the front stage. Looking at the pictures of them on the Emotiva website you might get the impression they are rather blocky. They aren't as bad as they seem. I guess they just aren't photogenic.

I went with the 6.2/6.3 combo due to wanting to try quality book shelf speakers since I haven't in a while, research dictated that the 6.2 with a GOOD sub is very comparable to the 8.3s, so there was a huge savings since I already had a sub, and lastly because I want something new. I like to change set ups every 6 months to a year in my living room setup. The dedicated HT has been the same for nearly 3 years now.

FYI. I pulled the trigger last night on three ERM-6.3's for left, center, right speakers.

I sure hope that my older Pioneer Elite VSX-95 can drive these. It has a very conservative 125W into 8 ohm rating (continuous). It has a selector switch for 4 ohm compatibility.

Given that I have paradigm ADP-190 rear surround speakers that are 8 ohms, it isn't clear to me what the best setting is for the selector switch on the receiver (8 or 4 ohm). I need to think about this some more.

- Steven

Chances are that the 4 ohm switch is a current limiter and will reduce the power output of your AVR. As you probably know, a lower impedance such as 4 ohms allows your AVR amps to deliver more current. A problem can arise if the current demands into 4 ohms exceeds the ability of the power supply to deliver that current, hence the switch. I would try it with the 8ohm setting first and keep a close eye on how hot the AVR gets. If it doesn't seem to get too hot, then turn up the volume and, again, keep an eye on it. If it continues to operate OK then leave the switch set to 8 ohms. It all depends on the quality of the power supply in your AVR and its ability to deliver the current demanded by 4 ohm speakers. Emotiva 4 ohm speakers are fairly easy to drive and they don't go below 3.2 ohms so you will probably be OK. If your AVR isn't up to this, I doubt if it will drive your 6.3s to reference level, cleanly.

I want my tweeters on the outside of the of the actual speaker. In order to achieve this, one speaker must be position upside down (back of speaker has all the words upside down) Is this a problem? I am assuming that one 6.5" is a mid and the other a woofer. Or are they both mids? If they are different, is there a problem having them differently positioned on each side?

Thanks,
Joe

No. That is fine and how Emo intended you to use them. You can position them with the tweeters on the inside or the outside, according to preference. This is all mentioned in the speaker manual IIRC. The 6.5" units are woofers but they only go down to 80Hz and you *have* to use a sub with these speakers if you want the last couple of octaves, which I assume you do.

Edit: I am assuming your speakers are 6.2s or 6.3s, yes? 6.2s I guess from the way you describe them, with three drivers. The 6.3s have 5 drivers each of course, including the two dedicated mid-range units.

I have 6.2s and a 6.3 as a center. They sound pretty good, and I still have to run audessy today. I'm running an elemental designs a2-300 and it blends very well with the Emos. Thanks for the info....

Great stuff. the 6.2/6.3 combination is a good one. I use three 6.3s across the front but where you really notice the 6.3 is the centre channel, thanks to those mid-range drivers. I have had numerous speakers over the years, including very expensive ones, and I am always very impressed at how well the 6.3s perform, especially for their price. Vance Dickason is a great designer!

I just ran audessy on my Onkyo 809 and it set the fronts and center to 40hz and my Jamo rears to 100hz. I'm going to leave the Jamos at 100hz, but should I raise the fronts to 80hz?

BTW, I ran Audessy at 5 points in my room...

Edit: Ran audessy again and this time did only the quick set up...Left the mic in the center of the listening arear and it set the front three to 80hz. and rears to 100 (5.1)

I'm going to follow the audessy setup to the letter on my next day off. For now, I'm leaving it as is and gonna break in the speakers for a few days.

Yes. You will take the strain off your AVR's amps and your speakers by not asking them to reproduce such low frequencies at high SPLs.


Why only 5? Audyssey recommends that you use all the positions for best results.


Three mic positions will give you a bad Audyssey calibration. use all the positions and re-set your mains to 80Hz afterwards.


Have you read the Setup Guide in post 1 of the Official Audyssey Thread? It's essential reading if you want a superb Audyssey calibration.

I tried numerous positions since I ran Audessy 6-8 times back to back. No luck. Even doing the quick setup gave me better results the one time it calibrated the sub properly. Thing is that I reran it once I had the new Emotiva monitors in place. The front three sounds great. The issue is the sub playing very boomy and bottoming out on heavy bass scenes as noted.

The one time that I was able to get Audessy to calibrate my sub correctly, it blended VERY well and sounded fantastic with my Pioneer towers and center. No such luck YET with the Emotiva setup.

Another guy on the Onkyo 809 thread stated that a bad mic caused similar havoc on his 709. So I'm putting call into Onkyo on Monday and getting another mic. Hopefully this will solve my problem and I will keep the 809. I hope so because it is feature rich and will be awesome paired to a five channel Emo amp....

I will keep the thread posted once I have more results.

What is Audyssey setting the trim levels to for your sub and the other speakers?

It may be a mic issue but then again it may be a setup issue. Let us know if the new mic fixes it or not. Meanwhile, I'd be interested in the trim levels you're getting.

Levels are: L/R -5.0, Center -3.0, SL/SR -6.5/-5.0 and sub -4.0
Distances have been +/- 2 ft. or so. Except the sub keeps missing the distance by 10-20 ft. at different times!

Thanks for your assistance!

What receivers are you guys using that own 6.2/6.3 setup? I'm looking for those with and without external amp support. My Onkyo 809 is having no problem pushing my 6.2/6.3 front three, but I'm having calibration issues. If I can't resolve it soon, I'm looking to change my receiver.

Either way, I'm going to add an XPA-5 to my setup after the holidays. I'm just looking for a receiver that does all the streaming, EXCELLENT video processing, and sound quality I am getting now with the 809. If I were to pull the plug right now, it would be a Yamaha A2010, Marantz 6006, or Denon 3312, or Pioneer Elite 52 or 53. Basically something in the $1k range.

Second option would be to get something less robust in power rating, but with the streaming, vid processing, sound quality, etc. and add the XPa-5 immediately. So a $500-600 AVR and the XPA-5.

The other levels look OK. The distances should be more accurate than plus or minus 2 feet. The sub distance is always further than the actual distance as Audyssey compensates for delays in the sub circuitry so that's not a worry, as such, although it should be reported consistently and not varying by 10 feet! There may be something wrong with your mic or your technique. It's hard to say without more information.

I was using an Onkyo 5007 (now an Onkyo 5509) with Emotiva XPA-3 and two UPA-2s. All worked great.


Lack of Audyssey XT32 would be a dealbreaker for me. Or XT at the least.


I would get the cheaper AVR, with Audyssey XT or XT32, and the external amp. The amp will last your for years and you can use it as you upgrade your AVR over time. If you were in the UK I could sell you my 5007 for a great price - no takers here in the UK - our used gar market is very poor.

One time the sub came up as being 30 ft. away which is the max. And it is only 12.5' away. I know it isn't my technique as I've been using auto calibration in various forms for many years. And using the quick calibration yields the same results of less than stellar bass. Out of 12 or so times, only once did the bass sound as it should. Both my Elite 94 and Elite 23 works flawlessly each time.

For multiEQ, i moved my couch away from the wall, put the mic on a tripod first at the far left corner which is my main listening stop, moved it 3 ft to center, 3 ft again to the right (all along the back wall about 18" from the wall. The next 3 spots were in front of the couch in the same three relative locations to the back (left side of couch, three feet over, then another 3 feet over.) Not sure if anything in my technique is causing this. If you see anything, please comment. Thanks!!!!