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Official Pioneer SC-09TX/SC-LX90 Owner's Thread - Page 6

post #151 of 5375
Thread Starter 
Hey Everyone. Not much activity the past week so any updates?

I have one - last Sunday afternoon I got geeky & created a spreadsheet with all the SC-09's MCACC EQ settings & channel levels to compare with the 59TXi's settings.

One major difference is the channel levels...the SC-09 sets all of them exactly 6 dB lower than what the 59TXi did. Either Pioneer is adjusting to a lower overall reference level or the test tones are 6 dB louder. Since the SC-09's test tones all seem louder to me, especially the subs, which is noticeably louder, I think Pioneer must have set the calibration tone levels 6 dB louder for some reason.

I was very curious since my sub output is a lot different, -9 dB with the SC-09 vs. -1.5 dB with the 59TXi with no change in the subs' volumes and couldn't understand why.

With All Channels Adjust mode, Pioneer retained independant calibration of each speaker, but with Symmetry, it really means symmetry: opposing pairs are EQ'd with indentical settings.

What I'm going to do next is create my own MCACC preset using the 59TXi's settings as a "house" curve, and see how it sounds compared to the Symmetry & All Channels Adjust presets.

I attached my spreadsheet including graphing the results if anyone was interested.

While not in geek mode, I've been just listening, watching, and enjoying. I hope everyone is doing the same. No problems to report.

George, any update on your phono?

ss9001
Steve

 

MCACC Calibration_6-1-08.zip 14.1806640625k . file
post #152 of 5375
This is going to sound weird, but I had a recent cash flow situation, and the sold my Denon 5308ci... however, the piece of gear I was able to obtain for replacement, due to how was able to pay for it, was an SC09..

I will be an owner come Monday .
post #153 of 5375
Quote:
Originally Posted by phastlane View Post

I am looking at the on-line owners manual, so the page numbers may be different.

It is located here:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/St...ctions1213.pdf

In the table it says: "RESOLUTIONa This setting is valid for HDMI and component outputs. Specifies the output resolution of the video signal (when analog video input signals are output at the HDMI OUT connector and/or component video out terminal, select this according to the resolution of your monitor and the images you wish to watch). When AUTO is selected, the resolution is automatically selected depending on the capability of the display connected to this receiver."

Also on page 157 it says: "Also, the built-in digital video converter of this receiver makes both de-interlacing and up-scaling possible, and analog video signals being input are converted and output as digital video signals at the HDMI terminal."

This is not completely clear to me either, and I do not have a unit to test. But, given the comments made on this thread earlier, It sure seems like the video upconversion only applies to Analog sources...

Everything else about the SC-09 is perfect for my application, so I hope that someone who has one can verify that HDMI sources do get upconverted...

The SC-09 looks perfect for me and I am excited about the audio capabilities. I cannot figure out the video. I have read this thread and the manual. All I want it to do is take a 480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i signal from an HDMI input and output 1080p. It looks like it will not do that. It would be even better if it did noise reduction etc. From what I can tell the Denon AVR-5308 does do this. As a satisfied Denon 3803 and 3808 owner I was ready to jump ship and buy into the SC-09. I love the Ice Amps. But I can't do it if it can't handle my video. Has any more been learned on this topic in the last week or two?

What I don't want to hear is that I shouldn't use HDMI I should use component or anything like that. I know all the arguments. They are a poor excuse. We are moving to a digital single wire solution very painfully but we are moving there. I don't want to go backwards. I suspect if we could start a movement to have HDCP outlawed our equipment would work better. Anybody want to join?
post #154 of 5375
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

This is going to sound weird, but I had a recent cash flow situation, and the sold my Denon 5308ci... however, the piece of gear I was able to obtain for replacement, due to how was able to pay for it, was an SC09..

I will be an owner come Monday .

Welcome to the fold.
I'd be very interested in your comments on how the 2 compare.
post #155 of 5375
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I will be an owner come Monday .

A notable new owner for a notable unit
post #156 of 5375
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear View Post

The SC-09 looks perfect for me and I am excited about the audio capabilities. I cannot figure out the video. I have read this thread and the manual. All I want it to do is take a 480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i signal from an HDMI input and output 1080p. It looks like it will not do that. It would be even better if it did noise reduction etc. From what I can tell the Denon AVR-5308 does do this. As a satisfied Denon 3803 and 3808 owner I was ready to jump ship and buy into the SC-09. I love the Ice Amps. But I can't do it if it can't handle my video. Has any more been learned on this topic in the last week or two?

What I don't want to hear is that I shouldn't use HDMI I should use component or anything like that. I know all the arguments. They are a poor excuse. We are moving to a digital single wire solution very painfully but we are moving there. I don't want to go backwards. I suspect if we could start a movement to have HDCP outlawed our equipment would work better. Anybody want to join?

Hi:
Welcome to the fold:
I hope this will give you a little glimpse of what to expect.
In my case, I do not have a big screen or tv with 1080P HDMI capability yet.
From what I have setup working, you may get the drift.

I have an HP monitor model W2408H with 19200x1200 resolution. I also have Kenwood Dv-5900M with Entre. The Kenwood dvd player has component, so is the Entre hub. I was able to watch movies either from the Kenwood dv-5900M, or via the Entre. The DVD iis 480p, Sc-09TX was able to display the movie, not the full 1080p, but at 1081. If my monitor were to support 1080P, I would have been in video heaven.
The HP monitor does not even have component YBR as its connector. Via HDMI,+ Kenwood's YBR, it was possible.
I hope this helps.

Regarding my phono, I just let it alone, until I can get another turntable.Thanks to everyone who had given me some suggestions regarding the TT not producing sound.

George T. Omoregie.
post #157 of 5375
Has anyone been able to test what music files formats it handles? WMA, FLAC, AAC etc.

Also, will it handle PQLS via HDMI as it its upcoming smaller brethren?

Has anyone seen any service meny or at least firmware status? Could be interesting to compare the US models to the upcoming Europe ditto.

Update: now it's up on the European Pioneer web sites and the manual is at http://www.service.pioneer-eur.com/p...m&Modelnr=LX90.
Major difference at first glance is that it's a pure amplifier, thus no tuner circuits.
post #158 of 5375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragnet View Post

Also, will it handle PQLS via HDMI as it its upcoming smaller brethren?

No...
post #159 of 5375
I asked Pioneer about the video deiniterlacing and upscaling capabilities of the SC-09TX. I have 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i inputs over HDMI in addition to 1080p so you can see why conversion and scaling is important.

The good news is that Pioneer customer service got back to me very efficiently and they answered my question accurately and precisely. The bad news is that I don't like the answer:

"The answer is that it can only convert analog signals, not HDMI, much the same as the VSX94TX from last year."
post #160 of 5375
Got my SC09 up and running today... very preliminary impressions (3 hours of listening and watching)..

First off.. weighs a ton (I'm a weakling, though)... Box design is a little strange (it opens on the sides with a pull out inner "sleeve." Remote is busy with small text, but the mini LCD display is nice, and it is a solid feeling remote with aluminum accents (some buttons).

Beautiful front glossy finish, clean layout on the back panel. LCD display is nice.





In my brief time, I may not be set up properly, or haven't found a way to do things a certain way (even though I've read the manual cover to cover) so if I point out some cons, it may be due to my not finding the right solution.... that being said, here I go..

In the past two 1/2 years, I've had a Denon 5805, Anthem D2, Onkyo 905 and Denon 4308ci and then 5308ci.. Let me first talk about functionality..

I liked the simplicity of the Anthem.. it was deep, but very easy to get around in...... A well laid out system, and really powerful (and good looking) video processor with a lot of custom settings... It was great because you could set up a music and cinema setting, and assign those to multiple sources (you can do some similar things with the SC09, but not the same.)

The D2 was a great sounding pre-amp.. I loved it's transparency, and was pretty happy with the A5 amp I had paired with it... also not, I have also changed my main speakers (were Rocket 1000's for the main L and R and are now Onix Strata Mini's) and sub (used to be SVS cylinder sub and now a Velodyne SPL-R1500)...

With the D2 the sonics were great, and I haven't hear the ARC, but the video on the unit was on par with the Denon 5308ci (which is to say also great.)

I won't talk about the other receivers, but the 5308 I just got rid of (BTW I did this change over of gear so I could get some cash in hand, and was able to get a great deal on the SC09 which I could finance... we're all such junkies.. I was very happy with the Denon, except for one thing, which I will talk about next )

The Denon, first off, sounded great.. clean and punchy. When I first set it up, I hated the way my Mini's sounded, and was a little depressed about the whole thing... until I ran the Audyssey. Mind you, my room sucks. Really. Since we moved back into this house, I haven't been able to do any room treatments at all... I took it all down to show the house when we were trying to sell it. The Denon's MultEQ did wonders. It helped out with imaging, and gave me back the sparkle I was used to with the Anthem way back when. My only reservation was the power... I thought it might be the size of the room (16x23) or the lackluster efficiency of the Mini's, but I always felt that when pushed, the Denon was working hard to keep them goings... It sounded great, but I wasn't 100% happy with the sound.... After the opportunity came after shipping the 5308 off to it's new owner to get the SC09, I was hopeful that the ICE amps would make me smile.... we'll get to that.

Functionality wise, the Denon is amazing. I know some people find their menu system confusing, but I will say now that it is sorely missed... it is slick looking and very functional. The integration of some functions with the remote and OSD is weird and convoluted, but it is a beautiful OSD system (which is overlaid on sources as you are making changes)...

This will be my biggest disappointment with the SC09, and the lack of video upscaling on the digital video inputs. I already hate it. There is no on-screen display of any kind when viewing HDMI sources (don't know if this changes with analog inputs).. not volume, what source you are choosing, input, output... NADA.. You must look at the LCD on the receiver, which is in a rack behind my seats... The LCD is great to look at (and gives you much more information at a glance than any other unit I've used) but in my system, with a projector, it frankly stinks.

And, no, you cannot access the scaler/video processor with HDMI inputs... I am going to switch back over to component for DVD and Satellite, but I think that's a bad solution to a convenience all of my other products had (even the Onkyo, which was my least favorite of all.) It's got a great solution with the QDEO... why can't I use it on my good sources (I'm all HDMI...)

I imagine this is not a fixable feature, as it doesn't seem the OSD can overlay any video (the OSD for the system setup screens seem to be SD from the same source feeding the LCD).. It's a huge oversight, in my opinion.... I mean how am I supposed to make an informed decision about changes to the listening mode, for example, if I have to be looking at the unit? Also problematic is the fact when you do go into the setup menu, you lose output for 1-2 seconds, and you have no audio when in the system setup mode!

I need to run to pick up my kids.. but I will tease you with the flip side of all I've written so far:

In regards to audio performance....

THE SC09's SOUND ROCKS!!!!

I'll get into that later tonight ...
post #161 of 5375
Thread Starter 
Audiobear,
Sorry I wasn't able to get to your question, but I've called Pioneer myself, actually twice hoping we were doing something wrong, but was told the same thing.

The good news is that the Qdeo scaler/processor chip does an excellent job with analog inputs. Yesterday, I watched a 1960's scifi series on DVD to see how it would handle upconverting component to HDMI from 480i to 1080i, using my Pioneer 59AVi player. The HDMI output looked great, properly framed AR, with slightly more detail than my normal component 480p from the player.

rudolpht & I have both tried it with svideo from laserdisc players, and I've tried it also on a Sony DVR. It each case, the processor cleaned up the image a bit. The video converter on the previous Pioneer flagship, the 59TXI, actually degraded svideo & composite converted to component so wasn't worth the bother.

Pioneer told me that on HDMI inputs, the converter-scaler is bypassed, so you cannot use Qdeo to scale std def to 1080p. Pioneer's thinking was the owner would set the rez in the player or the display for HDMI. What I'm unclear on is whether HDMI sources go thru the Qdeo video processor for its built-in algorithms for NR & image enhancement, like anti-aliasing. Qdeo is supposed to have beneficial effects even on HD, so I would hope Pioneer would not bypass the processor completely for HDMI, but I have to date no confirmation of that.

What I may end up doing is bite the bullet & buy the $120 service manual & see how its put together myself. I'm definitely not in the repair biz, but sometimes you can learn a lot from a service manual.

Lack of HDMI scaling is a a disappointment & I think Pioneer made a mistake in not including it compared to their competition. That said, I really haven't missed the feature but I know some of you wanting to use one cable solution for all sources and upscale from players like Oppo's may miss it.

I can say the video quality itself has been excellent, incl. upconverting analog sources.

ss9001
Steve
post #162 of 5375
So.Freaking.Jealous.

I'll be needing your home addresses and hours of the day when your usually away.


*Drools*

On the complete opposite side of the spectrum, I'll be picking up the VSX-1018 in July, so there. Now we're even. Kinda... sorta. No, not really... at all, not even close, huh?


Yeah well, whateva... hope your back is stiff from carrying all that awesome hardware!!!
post #163 of 5375
I keep going back and forth with myself. On the one hand I watch more and more 1080p and will need video processing less and less. But D* 720p and 1080i need help. As far as SD from DVDs or D*, I know you can't make an HD picture out of them but they are the inputs that need the most work. For some strange reason Pioneer thinks if we are watching anything but HD it will be analog--absolutely a wierd decision. Because, on the other hand, knowing that the unit could really improve all input HDMI signals and knowing it had the processor there to do it would drive me crazy.

Buying a video processor is not really the answer I wanted. If we could take the GUI, menus, other features and video processing out of a Denon 5803 and the audio stages out of the SC-09TX we would have a winner. The industry must be conspiring to do this to us. There is no simple one box receiver solution even though receivers have most of the cutting edge innovations. A pity.

I am probably going to go with the Denon 5803. FilmMixer actually said some very nice things about it.
post #164 of 5375
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear View Post

I keep going back and forth with myself. On the one hand I watch more and more 1080p and will need video processing less and less. But D* 720p and 1080i need help. As far as SD from DVDs or D*, I know you can't make an HD picture out of them but they are the inputs that need the most work. For some strange reason Pioneer thinks if we are watching anything but HD it will be analog--absolutely a wierd decision. Because, on the other hand, knowing that the unit could really improve all input HDMI signals and knowing it had the processor there to do it would drive me crazy.

Buying a video processor is not really the answer I wanted. If we could take the GUI, menus, other features and video processing out of a Denon 5803 and the audio stages out of the SC-09TX we would have a winner. The industry must be conspiring to do this to us. There is no simple one box receiver solution even though receivers have most of the cutting edge innovations. A pity.

I am probably going to go with the Denon 5803. FilmMixer actually said some very nice things about it.

I have just a sec to chime in.... I know, in my setup, that the component outputs of my DTV boxes (HR20's (as a matter of fact my bedroom HD20's HDMI output is intermittent, and I use component on that one) and H20) are excellent, easily on par with the HDMI outputs... I will have to see if my Oppo is in the same boat...

I only found it buried on the spec sheet that the unit does do DSD over HDMI (it reads SACD Digital on the front display)... the same spec sheet says:



As I read that, most of those points aren't true...

I really have nothing bad to say about the Denon... but I do like the power and sound of the amps of the SC09, even after only three hours...

Ok.. got some more time

In starting to set up the SC09, it was very confusing without using the MCACC setup first... I just wanted to take a listen... I am only running 5.1 at this point. I tried to find a speaker setup (in the Output Setup menu) other than Normal (which is a full 5.2 Bi-Amp setup) and guess what? There is no 5.1 setup (in fairness, you can use the Normal setting, but when you go look at the sutup in another menu, you will see it has Surround B and Back Surrounds activated, as well as Sub x 2).. But then I found the Manual SP Setup in the same main Setup Menu as the Output Setup... there I could do what I needed... It was very confusing to say the least..

Also, when I started up I plugged my DVD player into HDMI 2... I went to Setup Menu Input Setup and selected DVD on the remote... I couldn't assign it to an HDMI input.. to make things further confusing, in addition to all of the usual inputs (DVD/LD, BR, TV, SAT, etc...) the HDMI 1-6 inputs are also accessible individually on the remote by pushing the HDMI Source button on the remote 1 to 6 times.. The I found the little foot note in the manual about the fact that if you have HDMI Control On (which it is by default) you cannot assign the HDMI inputs to the other sources... Once I did this, I could assign the HDMI2 input as a source for the DVD input... Can you say confusing?

The Denon as far as setup, ease of use and menus (the menus on the Denon overlay picture and keep the sound going at all times) kill the Pioneer.... I have to say, the SC09 is the worst of any of the audio gear I've used in the last 3 years...

But the sound..

From the turn on and first CD, I am hooked... whereas the Denon needed Audyseey to be listenable, the Pio sounded good in my live, hard wood, reverberant, wood shuttered, non treated acoustic black hole of a room I call my theater at this point.... bouncy, but good.

The first thing I noticed was the sound was more natural, and whereas the Denon sounded mid range heavy from the get go without eq, the Pioneer was much more alive and wide.. it wasn't a subtle difference, in my view. And I turned it up a bit. And I didn't get any sense of the amps getting a little tired on the Pioneer... It was full, warn and in your face, not with bright sound, but with controlled authority. I really love the way this sounds.

Then I ran the Auto MCACC.... It helped a bit, but is nowhere near the band aid it was as on the Denon.. meaning, I can listen to this receiver with all the controls off, in pure direct, and I can still listen.. I couldn't, in this room, do that with the Denon...

First listening for me, on any system, is "Lady Marmalade" on the Moulin Rouge soundtrack.. I threw it in after the Auto Setup finished.... HDMI stereo from an Oppo HD980.

Unbelievable width and center imaging... and I had to check to make sure the sub wasn't on and I hadn't engaged a surround mode... It was that nice..

That's my beginning observations.. I really dislike it for it's clunky menus and ugly OSD. I don't like not being able to see the volume setting on my screen (I appreciate Pioneers rationale about keeping the video pure, but the D2 was transparent with the source when it added OSD onto the picture... and I know the Denon has an issue where it repeats a line on one edge of the picture, but it too is pretty transparent, with video conversion off on any given input)...

If you want to see volume on screen you have to access the system menu, which causes you to lose video and causes the projector to go blank as it changes res, both in and out of the menu.. Lame, to say the least.

But, outside of that, and I trust that the SC09 will equal the Denon when being fed 480i and 1080i on component inputs and using the QDEO (can others tell me if you get OSD volume at that point overlayed?).. it passes HQ video untouched (as best I can tell) and the sound is fantastic....

After 3 hours, I will give it a sonic edge over the Denon in my setup.. I like it alot.. I will let you all know in the future as I find workarounds and the like... I need a lot more time..

But I will miss the functionality (oh and I also had to give up HD Radio, which I was very fond of ) of the 5308ci...
post #165 of 5375
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear View Post

But D* 720p and 1080i need help.
I am probably going to go with the Denon 5803. FilmMixer actually said some very nice things about it.

I hate to say it, but you should probably go Denon. Even if you see that the D* video in by component is better on the Pio than HDMI on the Denon and that the sound is completely identical, you are still going to be bitter that you can't do both by HDMI. Save the heartburn and go the cheaper route with the Denon.
post #166 of 5375
Hi, first post on here and hope people aren't too quick to flame.

How does the SC-09 compare to the AX10ai in terms of dd and dts? Huge difference in price and just want to see if people think it's justifiable.

Thanks
post #167 of 5375
Thread Starter 
On the HDMI scaling issue...my perspective after thinking about it for several weeks...

If I was honest to myself, I think the main reason I was initially disappointed about not having HDMI-HDMI scaling was not because of any need but just because Denon had it, so I thought the SC-09 should have it to. Funny how our minds work that way

A few days later, I realized I didn't use video converting much anyway because I bought my display before HDMI had caught on. I had the display ISF'd on every input and used component, svideo, & DVI depending on the source. Its not a big deal to me not to have everything piped over HDMI. Until I got into HD-DVD & BD, the only use I had for the display's DVI input was upconverted DVD from the 59AVi player. I use the receiver as a smart switchbox, not as a replacement for an expensive scaler. Maybe if I had a front projector I'd do things differently.

Even tho I understand the appeal of using one cable, there are many horror stories of flaky & non-functional HDMI connections from cable/satellite tuners, TIVO's, problems with cable boxes thru receivers, on & on. All I want from cable TV is trouble-free viewing, so for me it was a no-brainer to use component. No HDCP hassles, no compatibility problems, just a reliable connection. I'll deal with HDMI with HD-DVD & BD because I have to get hi-def video & hi-rez audio but for normal TV, many don't need it or want it.

The SC-09 will scale component to HDMI from 480i/480p/720p/1080i to 1080p, so that's still an option for 2 connections from the AVR to the display.

I do agree with Tim on the point that it's about choice. And if someone is really going to miss a certain feature, then they should buy what's appropriate for their needs.

ss9001
Steve
post #168 of 5375
I think that it's a good point about if you really want a feature buy the unit that has it. If you look back at my earlier post you will see that it was the audio quality offered by the Pioneer that FilmMixer talks about. I guess I want both and can't have it. I know how to get it, buy a D2 and a D-Sonic Ice Power amp (and maybe a Video Processor) but I want the convenience of 1 wire connections and a receiver. We are not there yet.

Truth be told, I am holding off for Dolby or Audessey volume level control. Much as I hate messing with a signal that way, when I ask my wife what she wants in a new system she looks at me as says in 1 msec that she wants a receiver that will silence the damn commercials which are way way too loud.

Maybe next year Pioneer will get it right. On the other hand Denon will have what I want sooner. There is not point arguing tastes --especially whe we have different speakers and rooms as well as ears--but I would bet a lot of people would be really happy with a 5308 sound. The people here are 99th percentile listeners who care. Most don't. I confess, I like the Denon 3808 in my bedroom system driving 5 Gallo D'iva Nucleus speakers and the TR2 sub. How could the 5308 not be better? Why do I think the Pioneer is better?
post #169 of 5375
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear View Post

I think that it's a good point about if you really want a feature buy the unit that has it. If you look back at my earlier post you will see that it was the audio quality offered by the Pioneer that FilmMixer talks about. I guess I want both and can't have it. I know how to get it, buy a D2 and a D-Sonic Ice Power amp (and maybe a Video Processor) but I want the convenience of 1 wire connections and a receiver. We are not there yet.

Truth be told, I am holding off for Dolby or Audessey volume level control. Much as I hate messing with a signal that way, when I ask my wife what she wants in a new system she looks at me as says in 1 msec that she wants a receiver that will silence the damn commercials which are way way too loud.

Maybe next year Pioneer will get it right. On the other hand Denon will have what I want sooner. There is not point arguing tastes --especially whe we have different speakers and rooms as well as ears--but I would bet a lot of people would be really happy with a 5308 sound. The people here are 99th percentile listeners who care. Most don't. I confess, I like the Denon 3808 in my bedroom system driving 5 Gallo D'iva Nucleus speakers and the TR2 sub. How could the 5308 not be better? Why do I think the Pioneer is better?

Bear...... I had a 4308, and the 5308 was a definite step up, in video and audio, so you won't be disappointed.

I also forgot to mention that I gave THX Loudness Plus a try... much more transparent than Audysseys Dynamic EQ..

Just a tip: On broadcast sources, turn Dolby DRC on.. with Dolby Digital broadcast sources (most stations nowadays) if they used a dial norm of -27, it will work wonders for your wife's request, and make your wife a happier camper (we will never make them 100% content.)

Of all of your suggestions, the D2 + ICE amp is the ideal.. the Gennum is fantastic.... however you give up 7.1 input and in player advanced audio decoding, depending how important those are to you..


BUT... If you're going to spend D2 kind of money, the Denon AVP-A1HD + ICE amp will get you everything you want (minus the automated volume control), at a price comparable to the D2 plus amp... After talking with some other people in the know tonight whom I respect, the thing I think I am liking most about the Pioneer is the amp section, followed by the fact that I can tweak the MCACC system in parts (with Audyssey it's kind of all or nothing, with the Pioneer system, you can tweak it to you hearts content, with PC control no less.)

And I agree with ss.... the sources that I use 1080p on I don't care about scaling.. the Directv and DVD component are probably the same, or even better when talking with some, video wise (and audio might be slightly better over coax)..

My main gripe is the lack of on screen info and volume.. the scaling is a non issue for most, and an out of sight behind the rack annoyance at worst.... I'm happy enough with the audio, it will tide me over until at least the end of 2009 ..... which is a long time for me and a piece of equipment.
post #170 of 5375
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

BUT... If you're going to spend D2 kind of money, the Denon AVP-A1HD + ICE amp will get you everything you want (minus the automated volume control), at a price comparable to the D2 plus amp.

I had noticed that too! Now if it just had volume control. What this shows is that there are different products for different needs. The Pioneer has sound quality in a receiver pretty well nailed. They should steal the GUI from Denon or Sony or someone. Nothing is perfect either.

FilmMixer: thanks for the Denon 5308 tips Did you make those on the 5308 thread?

I am going to read the SC-09TX forum for a while to see how reviews and users stack up. Seems like a winner.
post #171 of 5375
Thread Starter 
I would agree with Filmmixer's comments about audio quality being Pioneer's #1 priority in the SC-09. I think Pioneer got it right & it's 1 of the unit's biggest strengths.

I know there's many people who claim Audyessy is better because it's seems to be the most sophisticated system. But you don't read too many posts where MCACC set something weird or made the bass worse, etc. It's simplicity I think is its strength, while how well Audyssey & YPAO work seem to be dependant on various factors. Works well for many, but doesn't for some. Both seem finickier perhaps.

If I had to pick an "ideal" separates solution, it would be the Denon AVP-A1HD prepro. For the price differential, the SC-09 is a great alternative. I can live with its few shortcomings to get its very-very close to separates audio quality. And I would pick the AVP over the D2 in a heartbeat.

Film,
Thanks for posting your initial impressions & comparisons to the 5308. Each has some strengths compared to the other. Both are superb machines. For me, getting the best audio quality for the $$ was my main goal, and the Pioneer is a winner.

ss9001
Steve
post #172 of 5375
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clsmooth391 View Post

Hi, first post on here and hope people aren't too quick to flame.

How does the SC-09 compare to the AX10ai in terms of dd and dts? Huge difference in price and just want to see if people think it's justifiable.

Thanks

Good question and I'd have to give u a subjective answer.

IIRC, the AX10ai is the euro equilvalent to our 59TXi, which is what I upgraded from. My impression is the SC-09 sounds better even with standard DD/dts, not because it's decoding any differently, but the differences in how its calibrating the speakers & EQ, with standing wave & phase control features are an improvement. Also, the ice amps have their own contribution. More power than what the AX10Ai/59txi had & to my ears, slightly clearer with excellent imaging, soundstage, depth. Dialog is better, and I don't get the "Dial Norm + dB" compensation showing up anymore.

The amps in the 10Ai are excellent, but IMHO these new ice amps are just plain better. I have inefficient, power hungry speakers so more power means better sound. These ice amps rival what I had in a dedicated 2 channel 300 watt amp I used for the fronts. Not quite the equal in bass transient slam, but definitely clearer, and the 2 channel amp was better with my Magnepans than the 59Txi's amps.

I agree there's a big jump in price. But you what u gain with decoding the new hi-rez audio, internal HDMI switching instead of using clunky external switchers & how it performs on older material may make it worthwhile to upgrade, especially if u are planning to get into hi-def.
post #173 of 5375
hey guys , im also looking for the best home theater quality receiver PRE/PRO . I hear greats reviews on here about the pioneer. For 2000.00 less , i can get a Marantz PRE/PRO and their matching amp. How would the sound quality compare for Home theater? any input is much appreciated
post #174 of 5375
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Good question and I'd have to give u a subjective answer.

IIRC, the AX10ai is the euro equilvalent to our 59TXi, which is what I upgraded from. My impression is the SC-09 sounds better even with standard DD/dts, not because it's decoding any differently, but the differences in how its calibrating the speakers & EQ, with standing wave & phase control features are an improvement. Also, the ice amps have their own contribution. More power than what the AX10Ai/59txi had & to my ears, slightly clearer with excellent imaging, soundstage, depth. Dialog is better, and I don't get the "Dial Norm + dB" compensation showing up anymore.

The amps in the 10Ai are excellent, but IMHO these new ice amps are just plain better. I have inefficient, power hungry speakers so more power means better sound. These ice amps rival what I had in a dedicated 2 channel 300 watt amp I used for the fronts. Not quite the equal in bass transient slam, but definitely clearer, and the 2 channel amp was better with my Magnepans than the 59Txi's amps.

I agree there's a big jump in price. But you what u gain with decoding the new hi-rez audio, internal HDMI switching instead of using clunky external switchers & how it performs on older material may make it worthwhile to upgrade, especially if u are planning to get into hi-def.

Thank you for that. Sometimes returns aren't as good when you reach a certain level. Read a lot about the SC-09 and seems like I have a lot of saving to do.
post #175 of 5375
As a 5308 owner, very happy owner, who was thinking of jumping ship to the 09, I'm glad I've been following this thread the last couple of days (in particular FilmMixer's comments) I've decided my next move, if I make a move at all, will be to the Denon separates.

I don't think any of the 09's shortcoming,
lack of HDMI processing
lack of onscreen volume via HDMI
lack of onscreen overlay
etc....
aren't deal breakers taken individually
but put them altogether, throw in the fact that I'm utilizing Audyssey Pro which is worlds apart from regular Audyssey,
and the fact that I'm extremely happy with the sound of the 5308, which in my opinion is as good or better than any receiver or processor I've experienced, and I've experienced more than my share,
(but not the 09)
I have taken the 09 off my wish list.... for now

dc
post #176 of 5375
Thankyou DreamCatcher!

Makes me feel better. The Pioneer has powerful appeal and I will follow it with interest, but I am on the same path....sort of. I know that the 5308 is within budget. I am having trouble justifying 5 digits. My wife keeps mumbling something about being a deaf old geezer--at least I think that's what she's saying. )
post #177 of 5375
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear View Post

My wife keeps mumbling something about being a deaf old geezer--at least I think that's what she's saying. )

Well if sound quality is unimportant, I would bypass the SC09-TX (although it has a nice screen when used with analog inputs).

It's funny, the lack of OSD really got to me on the Z-11, but I don't miss it at all on the SC09-TX, despite having it on the 885.
post #178 of 5375
Quote:
Originally Posted by baddgsx View Post

hey guys , im also looking for the best home theater quality receiver PRE/PRO . I hear greats reviews on here about the pioneer. For 2000.00 less , i can get a Marantz PRE/PRO and their matching amp. How would the sound quality compare for Home theater? any input is much appreciated

I would say it's impossible to say until the Marantz combo is out. Also the SC09-TX has a much better video processor (EXCEPT it's for analog only)
post #179 of 5375
Quote:
Originally Posted by rudolpht View Post


It's funny, the lack of OSD really got to me on the Z-11, but I don't miss it at all on the SC09-TX, despite having it on the 885.

I could care less about the OSD. I am less than certain that the Pioneer is the last word in sound quality. Excellent it may be, but not unrivaled.
post #180 of 5375
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear View Post

I could care less about the OSD. I am less than certain that the Pioneer is the last word in sound quality. Excellent it may be, but not unrivaled.

I would suggest that there are a few combinations that are cheaper and many combinations that are more expensive that are better. For me I would only move up to the AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI combo (or a AVP + ICE Amps combo), but would not move down to a 5308CI (though FilmMixer based on experience vs conjecture may differ).
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