Official Pioneer SC-09TX/SC-LX90 Owner's Thread - Page 6

This is going to sound weird, but I had a recent cash flow situation, and the sold my Denon 5308ci... however, the piece of gear I was able to obtain for replacement, due to how was able to pay for it, was an SC09..

I will be an owner come Monday .

The SC-09 looks perfect for me and I am excited about the audio capabilities. I cannot figure out the video. I have read this thread and the manual. All I want it to do is take a 480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i signal from an HDMI input and output 1080p. It looks like it will not do that. It would be even better if it did noise reduction etc. From what I can tell the Denon AVR-5308 does do this. As a satisfied Denon 3803 and 3808 owner I was ready to jump ship and buy into the SC-09. I love the Ice Amps. But I can't do it if it can't handle my video. Has any more been learned on this topic in the last week or two?

What I don't want to hear is that I shouldn't use HDMI I should use component or anything like that. I know all the arguments. They are a poor excuse. We are moving to a digital single wire solution very painfully but we are moving there. I don't want to go backwards. I suspect if we could start a movement to have HDCP outlawed our equipment would work better. Anybody want to join?

A notable new owner for a notable unit

Hi:
Welcome to the fold:
I hope this will give you a little glimpse of what to expect.
In my case, I do not have a big screen or tv with 1080P HDMI capability yet.
From what I have setup working, you may get the drift.

I have an HP monitor model W2408H with 19200x1200 resolution. I also have Kenwood Dv-5900M with Entre. The Kenwood dvd player has component, so is the Entre hub. I was able to watch movies either from the Kenwood dv-5900M, or via the Entre. The DVD iis 480p, Sc-09TX was able to display the movie, not the full 1080p, but at 1081. If my monitor were to support 1080P, I would have been in video heaven.
The HP monitor does not even have component YBR as its connector. Via HDMI,+ Kenwood's YBR, it was possible.
I hope this helps.

Regarding my phono, I just let it alone, until I can get another turntable.Thanks to everyone who had given me some suggestions regarding the TT not producing sound.

George T. Omoregie.

Has anyone been able to test what music files formats it handles? WMA, FLAC, AAC etc.

Also, will it handle PQLS via HDMI as it its upcoming smaller brethren?

Has anyone seen any service meny or at least firmware status? Could be interesting to compare the US models to the upcoming Europe ditto.

Update: now it's up on the European Pioneer web sites and the manual is at http://www.service.pioneer-eur.com/p...m&Modelnr=LX90.
Major difference at first glance is that it's a pure amplifier, thus no tuner circuits.

No...

I asked Pioneer about the video deiniterlacing and upscaling capabilities of the SC-09TX. I have 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i inputs over HDMI in addition to 1080p so you can see why conversion and scaling is important.

The good news is that Pioneer customer service got back to me very efficiently and they answered my question accurately and precisely. The bad news is that I don't like the answer:

"The answer is that it can only convert analog signals, not HDMI, much the same as the VSX94TX from last year."

Got my SC09 up and running today... very preliminary impressions (3 hours of listening and watching)..

First off.. weighs a ton (I'm a weakling, though)... Box design is a little strange (it opens on the sides with a pull out inner "sleeve." Remote is busy with small text, but the mini LCD display is nice, and it is a solid feeling remote with aluminum accents (some buttons).

Beautiful front glossy finish, clean layout on the back panel. LCD display is nice.





In my brief time, I may not be set up properly, or haven't found a way to do things a certain way (even though I've read the manual cover to cover) so if I point out some cons, it may be due to my not finding the right solution.... that being said, here I go..

In the past two 1/2 years, I've had a Denon 5805, Anthem D2, Onkyo 905 and Denon 4308ci and then 5308ci.. Let me first talk about functionality..

I liked the simplicity of the Anthem.. it was deep, but very easy to get around in...... A well laid out system, and really powerful (and good looking) video processor with a lot of custom settings... It was great because you could set up a music and cinema setting, and assign those to multiple sources (you can do some similar things with the SC09, but not the same.)

The D2 was a great sounding pre-amp.. I loved it's transparency, and was pretty happy with the A5 amp I had paired with it... also not, I have also changed my main speakers (were Rocket 1000's for the main L and R and are now Onix Strata Mini's) and sub (used to be SVS cylinder sub and now a Velodyne SPL-R1500)...

With the D2 the sonics were great, and I haven't hear the ARC, but the video on the unit was on par with the Denon 5308ci (which is to say also great.)

I won't talk about the other receivers, but the 5308 I just got rid of (BTW I did this change over of gear so I could get some cash in hand, and was able to get a great deal on the SC09 which I could finance... we're all such junkies.. I was very happy with the Denon, except for one thing, which I will talk about next )

The Denon, first off, sounded great.. clean and punchy. When I first set it up, I hated the way my Mini's sounded, and was a little depressed about the whole thing... until I ran the Audyssey. Mind you, my room sucks. Really. Since we moved back into this house, I haven't been able to do any room treatments at all... I took it all down to show the house when we were trying to sell it. The Denon's MultEQ did wonders. It helped out with imaging, and gave me back the sparkle I was used to with the Anthem way back when. My only reservation was the power... I thought it might be the size of the room (16x23) or the lackluster efficiency of the Mini's, but I always felt that when pushed, the Denon was working hard to keep them goings... It sounded great, but I wasn't 100% happy with the sound.... After the opportunity came after shipping the 5308 off to it's new owner to get the SC09, I was hopeful that the ICE amps would make me smile.... we'll get to that.

Functionality wise, the Denon is amazing. I know some people find their menu system confusing, but I will say now that it is sorely missed... it is slick looking and very functional. The integration of some functions with the remote and OSD is weird and convoluted, but it is a beautiful OSD system (which is overlaid on sources as you are making changes)...

This will be my biggest disappointment with the SC09, and the lack of video upscaling on the digital video inputs. I already hate it. There is no on-screen display of any kind when viewing HDMI sources (don't know if this changes with analog inputs).. not volume, what source you are choosing, input, output... NADA.. You must look at the LCD on the receiver, which is in a rack behind my seats... The LCD is great to look at (and gives you much more information at a glance than any other unit I've used) but in my system, with a projector, it frankly stinks.

And, no, you cannot access the scaler/video processor with HDMI inputs... I am going to switch back over to component for DVD and Satellite, but I think that's a bad solution to a convenience all of my other products had (even the Onkyo, which was my least favorite of all.) It's got a great solution with the QDEO... why can't I use it on my good sources (I'm all HDMI...)

I imagine this is not a fixable feature, as it doesn't seem the OSD can overlay any video (the OSD for the system setup screens seem to be SD from the same source feeding the LCD).. It's a huge oversight, in my opinion.... I mean how am I supposed to make an informed decision about changes to the listening mode, for example, if I have to be looking at the unit? Also problematic is the fact when you do go into the setup menu, you lose output for 1-2 seconds, and you have no audio when in the system setup mode!

I need to run to pick up my kids.. but I will tease you with the flip side of all I've written so far:

In regards to audio performance....

THE SC09's SOUND ROCKS!!!!

I'll get into that later tonight ...

So.Freaking.Jealous.

I'll be needing your home addresses and hours of the day when your usually away.


*Drools*

On the complete opposite side of the spectrum, I'll be picking up the VSX-1018 in July, so there. Now we're even. Kinda... sorta. No, not really... at all, not even close, huh?


Yeah well, whateva... hope your back is stiff from carrying all that awesome hardware!!!

I keep going back and forth with myself. On the one hand I watch more and more 1080p and will need video processing less and less. But D* 720p and 1080i need help. As far as SD from DVDs or D*, I know you can't make an HD picture out of them but they are the inputs that need the most work. For some strange reason Pioneer thinks if we are watching anything but HD it will be analog--absolutely a wierd decision. Because, on the other hand, knowing that the unit could really improve all input HDMI signals and knowing it had the processor there to do it would drive me crazy.

Buying a video processor is not really the answer I wanted. If we could take the GUI, menus, other features and video processing out of a Denon 5803 and the audio stages out of the SC-09TX we would have a winner. The industry must be conspiring to do this to us. There is no simple one box receiver solution even though receivers have most of the cutting edge innovations. A pity.

I am probably going to go with the Denon 5803. FilmMixer actually said some very nice things about it.

I have just a sec to chime in.... I know, in my setup, that the component outputs of my DTV boxes (HR20's (as a matter of fact my bedroom HD20's HDMI output is intermittent, and I use component on that one) and H20) are excellent, easily on par with the HDMI outputs... I will have to see if my Oppo is in the same boat...

I only found it buried on the spec sheet that the unit does do DSD over HDMI (it reads SACD Digital on the front display)... the same spec sheet says:



As I read that, most of those points aren't true...

I really have nothing bad to say about the Denon... but I do like the power and sound of the amps of the SC09, even after only three hours...

Ok.. got some more time

In starting to set up the SC09, it was very confusing without using the MCACC setup first... I just wanted to take a listen... I am only running 5.1 at this point. I tried to find a speaker setup (in the Output Setup menu) other than Normal (which is a full 5.2 Bi-Amp setup) and guess what? There is no 5.1 setup (in fairness, you can use the Normal setting, but when you go look at the sutup in another menu, you will see it has Surround B and Back Surrounds activated, as well as Sub x 2).. But then I found the Manual SP Setup in the same main Setup Menu as the Output Setup... there I could do what I needed... It was very confusing to say the least..

Also, when I started up I plugged my DVD player into HDMI 2... I went to Setup Menu Input Setup and selected DVD on the remote... I couldn't assign it to an HDMI input.. to make things further confusing, in addition to all of the usual inputs (DVD/LD, BR, TV, SAT, etc...) the HDMI 1-6 inputs are also accessible individually on the remote by pushing the HDMI Source button on the remote 1 to 6 times.. The I found the little foot note in the manual about the fact that if you have HDMI Control On (which it is by default) you cannot assign the HDMI inputs to the other sources... Once I did this, I could assign the HDMI2 input as a source for the DVD input... Can you say confusing?

The Denon as far as setup, ease of use and menus (the menus on the Denon overlay picture and keep the sound going at all times) kill the Pioneer.... I have to say, the SC09 is the worst of any of the audio gear I've used in the last 3 years...

But the sound..

From the turn on and first CD, I am hooked... whereas the Denon needed Audyseey to be listenable, the Pio sounded good in my live, hard wood, reverberant, wood shuttered, non treated acoustic black hole of a room I call my theater at this point.... bouncy, but good.

The first thing I noticed was the sound was more natural, and whereas the Denon sounded mid range heavy from the get go without eq, the Pioneer was much more alive and wide.. it wasn't a subtle difference, in my view. And I turned it up a bit. And I didn't get any sense of the amps getting a little tired on the Pioneer... It was full, warn and in your face, not with bright sound, but with controlled authority. I really love the way this sounds.

Then I ran the Auto MCACC.... It helped a bit, but is nowhere near the band aid it was as on the Denon.. meaning, I can listen to this receiver with all the controls off, in pure direct, and I can still listen.. I couldn't, in this room, do that with the Denon...

First listening for me, on any system, is "Lady Marmalade" on the Moulin Rouge soundtrack.. I threw it in after the Auto Setup finished.... HDMI stereo from an Oppo HD980.

Unbelievable width and center imaging... and I had to check to make sure the sub wasn't on and I hadn't engaged a surround mode... It was that nice..

That's my beginning observations.. I really dislike it for it's clunky menus and ugly OSD. I don't like not being able to see the volume setting on my screen (I appreciate Pioneers rationale about keeping the video pure, but the D2 was transparent with the source when it added OSD onto the picture... and I know the Denon has an issue where it repeats a line on one edge of the picture, but it too is pretty transparent, with video conversion off on any given input)...

If you want to see volume on screen you have to access the system menu, which causes you to lose video and causes the projector to go blank as it changes res, both in and out of the menu.. Lame, to say the least.

But, outside of that, and I trust that the SC09 will equal the Denon when being fed 480i and 1080i on component inputs and using the QDEO (can others tell me if you get OSD volume at that point overlayed?).. it passes HQ video untouched (as best I can tell) and the sound is fantastic....

After 3 hours, I will give it a sonic edge over the Denon in my setup.. I like it alot.. I will let you all know in the future as I find workarounds and the like... I need a lot more time..

But I will miss the functionality (oh and I also had to give up HD Radio, which I was very fond of ) of the 5308ci...

I hate to say it, but you should probably go Denon. Even if you see that the D* video in by component is better on the Pio than HDMI on the Denon and that the sound is completely identical, you are still going to be bitter that you can't do both by HDMI. Save the heartburn and go the cheaper route with the Denon.

Hi, first post on here and hope people aren't too quick to flame.

How does the SC-09 compare to the AX10ai in terms of dd and dts? Huge difference in price and just want to see if people think it's justifiable.

Thanks

I think that it's a good point about if you really want a feature buy the unit that has it. If you look back at my earlier post you will see that it was the audio quality offered by the Pioneer that FilmMixer talks about. I guess I want both and can't have it. I know how to get it, buy a D2 and a D-Sonic Ice Power amp (and maybe a Video Processor) but I want the convenience of 1 wire connections and a receiver. We are not there yet.

Truth be told, I am holding off for Dolby or Audessey volume level control. Much as I hate messing with a signal that way, when I ask my wife what she wants in a new system she looks at me as says in 1 msec that she wants a receiver that will silence the damn commercials which are way way too loud.

Maybe next year Pioneer will get it right. On the other hand Denon will have what I want sooner. There is not point arguing tastes --especially whe we have different speakers and rooms as well as ears--but I would bet a lot of people would be really happy with a 5308 sound. The people here are 99th percentile listeners who care. Most don't. I confess, I like the Denon 3808 in my bedroom system driving 5 Gallo D'iva Nucleus speakers and the TR2 sub. How could the 5308 not be better? Why do I think the Pioneer is better?

Bear...... I had a 4308, and the 5308 was a definite step up, in video and audio, so you won't be disappointed.

I also forgot to mention that I gave THX Loudness Plus a try... much more transparent than Audysseys Dynamic EQ..

Just a tip: On broadcast sources, turn Dolby DRC on.. with Dolby Digital broadcast sources (most stations nowadays) if they used a dial norm of -27, it will work wonders for your wife's request, and make your wife a happier camper (we will never make them 100% content.)

Of all of your suggestions, the D2 + ICE amp is the ideal.. the Gennum is fantastic.... however you give up 7.1 input and in player advanced audio decoding, depending how important those are to you..


BUT... If you're going to spend D2 kind of money, the Denon AVP-A1HD + ICE amp will get you everything you want (minus the automated volume control), at a price comparable to the D2 plus amp... After talking with some other people in the know tonight whom I respect, the thing I think I am liking most about the Pioneer is the amp section, followed by the fact that I can tweak the MCACC system in parts (with Audyssey it's kind of all or nothing, with the Pioneer system, you can tweak it to you hearts content, with PC control no less.)

And I agree with ss.... the sources that I use 1080p on I don't care about scaling.. the Directv and DVD component are probably the same, or even better when talking with some, video wise (and audio might be slightly better over coax)..

My main gripe is the lack of on screen info and volume.. the scaling is a non issue for most, and an out of sight behind the rack annoyance at worst.... I'm happy enough with the audio, it will tide me over until at least the end of 2009 ..... which is a long time for me and a piece of equipment.

I had noticed that too! Now if it just had volume control. What this shows is that there are different products for different needs. The Pioneer has sound quality in a receiver pretty well nailed. They should steal the GUI from Denon or Sony or someone. Nothing is perfect either.

FilmMixer: thanks for the Denon 5308 tips Did you make those on the 5308 thread?

I am going to read the SC-09TX forum for a while to see how reviews and users stack up. Seems like a winner.

hey guys , im also looking for the best home theater quality receiver PRE/PRO . I hear greats reviews on here about the pioneer. For 2000.00 less , i can get a Marantz PRE/PRO and their matching amp. How would the sound quality compare for Home theater? any input is much appreciated

Thank you for that. Sometimes returns aren't as good when you reach a certain level. Read a lot about the SC-09 and seems like I have a lot of saving to do.

As a 5308 owner, very happy owner, who was thinking of jumping ship to the 09, I'm glad I've been following this thread the last couple of days (in particular FilmMixer's comments) I've decided my next move, if I make a move at all, will be to the Denon separates.

I don't think any of the 09's shortcoming,
lack of HDMI processing
lack of onscreen volume via HDMI
lack of onscreen overlay
etc....
aren't deal breakers taken individually
but put them altogether, throw in the fact that I'm utilizing Audyssey Pro which is worlds apart from regular Audyssey,
and the fact that I'm extremely happy with the sound of the 5308, which in my opinion is as good or better than any receiver or processor I've experienced, and I've experienced more than my share,
(but not the 09)
I have taken the 09 off my wish list.... for now

dc

Thankyou DreamCatcher!

Makes me feel better. The Pioneer has powerful appeal and I will follow it with interest, but I am on the same path....sort of. I know that the 5308 is within budget. I am having trouble justifying 5 digits. My wife keeps mumbling something about being a deaf old geezer--at least I think that's what she's saying. )

Well if sound quality is unimportant, I would bypass the SC09-TX (although it has a nice screen when used with analog inputs).

It's funny, the lack of OSD really got to me on the Z-11, but I don't miss it at all on the SC09-TX, despite having it on the 885.

I would say it's impossible to say until the Marantz combo is out. Also the SC09-TX has a much better video processor (EXCEPT it's for analog only)

I could care less about the OSD. I am less than certain that the Pioneer is the last word in sound quality. Excellent it may be, but not unrivaled.

I would suggest that there are a few combinations that are cheaper and many combinations that are more expensive that are better. For me I would only move up to the AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI combo (or a AVP + ICE Amps combo), but would not move down to a 5308CI (though FilmMixer based on experience vs conjecture may differ).