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Mirror's Edge - Page 8

post #211 of 292
11/25/08 at 4:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

Agreed. I think the old-school platformer challenge of this game turned a lot of people off. They all seem to want more crap like Mario Galaxy (I'm as big a fan of Mario games as anyone, but Galaxy was a stupid, silly cakewalk).

Games like Mirror's Edge show that there are still developers who still remember that games used to be challenging and that it wasn't a given that you could just simply get to the end if you put in the time. You have to learn to play this game.

And IMO, the time trials are every bit as challenging, rewarding, and well designed as Portal. It may not have the same technological innovation as Portal, but the level and puzzle design is just as impressive.

I agree that the meat of the game is in the depth of its deceivingly simple mechanics and level structure. In all games of that type, it's a place where not everyone enjoys going. Redoing passages time after time, fine tuning your game. Ultimately, it's not a question of quality or challenge I believe, but rather of false expectations based around exploring and running free across rooftops. That part of the game and the story, as an immersive experience, underdeliver, while the track design and fine tuning of a racer deliver in spades. It all makes sense, in a race the story doesn't need to be anything more than a strong catalyst to propel you from A to B.

What your beef with SMG is I don't know, but I don't see the relation between challenge and the people who play either. To me at least, trial and error itself doesn't constitute challenge and that's the only thing I've seen people complain about. If you mean the challenge of getting good at time trialing, I don't see people complaining about the difficulty of that but rather their lack of motivation to do it in the first place. There's a disconnect between story and time trial play that doesn't matter to us who are interested in the first place. But it matters in terms of motivational design. You can have the easiest challenge in the world, but if people don't feel motivated...and vice versa. We shouldn't think of it as a lack of balls just to flatter ourselves.
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post #212 of 292
11/25/08 at 7:03am
^^ Totally fair points.

But, no, I mean the main game. What constitutes "trial and error" gameplay is a matter of opinion. Just as all games are inherently repetitive, so too are they all about trial and error.

Good game design is about disguising those fundamental aspects of gameplay (repetition and trial and error) as much as possible. Varying the situations. Varying the enemies. Varying the environments. And so on.

My beef with SMG (and other recent games) is that more and more designers are avoiding trial-and-error gameplay not by finding other ways to keep us playing, but by making games too easy. There's a difference.

Game design is about balancing pleasure and pain. We should feel just enough "pain" (obstacles, enemies, puzzles, strategy, etc.) so that the "pleasure" (solution) is a true payoff. It should feel "earned," otherwise there's no real point. A game that's too easy is about constant gratification with no pain, no stumping moments, and no real obstacles. I get nothing from that. We live in a culture dedicated to constant instant gratification, and this newer design philosophy is just one example of that.

Anyhow, that's what works for me in Mirror's Edge. Particularly since I'm playing the first time through without Runner Vision and without shooting enemies. It's a real challenge, but so far there's always been a fair and rewarding "solution" (currently on chapter 7). If I get to an area where I'm constantly dying, I know there's something I'm missing. And to this game's credit, many areas have multiple solutions.

For example, in chapter 6:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Spoiler  
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The room at the base of the stairwell with the guards in the catwalk. I was stuck there for a while. I found a few possible running routes. Eventually, I developed a hugely advantageous route that involved drawing the two guards to the right side of the room (near the trucks), running back to the stairwell to get some speed, then vaulting to the catwalk off of the boxes. Then running to the closed room, jumping to the left wall's vent where I did a hanging jump to the other catwalk and then into the room.
That took a shitload of work until I figured out a successful solution. It's definitely not the only solution, but it is a reliable one.

Maybe I'm masochistic as hell. I dunno. One of my favorite games is Ikaruga, a famously challenging shmup.

Whatever the case, I do find it odd that people would complain about this platformer's "trial and error" gameplay, but not say the same thing about games like N+, Pixeljunk Monsters, or Ikaruga. Those games just get labeled as "difficult." Personally, I think when people don't like a difficult game they call it "unfair," but when they like a game, they call it "challenging."

I'd be in the latter group for Mirror's Edge. It's challenging as hell.
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post #213 of 292
11/25/08 at 7:33am
I am up to Chapter 6 and its clear this game isn't a challenge at all, it is all about the experience of free flowing a chase scene and figuring out ON THE FLY where to go( I played with the red stuff off). I found myself beating Chapters without dying, all because of momentum from the situation and the MUSIC, I suggest putting the music UP and watch how your instincts/reflexes get a boost, the immersion its great.

As an experience type of game, this is great game, but I know why some people might not like it, all they see and hear is "all you do is run away in this game" and that puts some people off.

This game got me interested from the get go with the MUSIC/ART and the idea of a FP game that isn't about shooting at all, its a great diversion from FPS gaming which has invaded consoles.
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post #214 of 292
11/25/08 at 9:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gslide View Post

I am up to Chapter 6 and its clear this game isn't a challenge at all, it is all about the experience of free flowing a chase scene and figuring out ON THE FLY where to go( I played with the red stuff off). I found myself beating Chapters without dying, all because of momentum from the situation and the MUSIC, I suggest putting the music UP and watch how your instincts/reflexes get a boost, the immersion its great.

As an experience type of game, this is great game, but I know why some people might not like it, all they see and hear is "all you do is run away in this game" and that puts some people off.

This game got me interested from the get go with the MUSIC/ART and the idea of a FP game that isn't about shooting at all, its a great diversion from FPS gaming which has invaded consoles.


+1 I totally agree with you.

The game itself isn't really hard. Yes I did die a couple of times because of bullets while trying to find the right path or falling because I didn't know where to go (runner vision OFF FTW!! ). But the experience and adrenaline you get when running away is crazy!! I'm really enjoying my surround sound system with this game

This experience might not suit everyone but I'm really enjoying my time with this game. I've always been a fan of parcours anyways and I was hyped for this game since the beginning so maybe it doesn't count.

The music is what really sold me to the game in the first trailer. Gslide, check the soundtrack available on torrent site, it's nice. (even tho the original song is the best)
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post #215 of 292
11/25/08 at 9:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

My beef with SMG (and other recent games) is that more and more designers are avoiding trial-and-error gameplay not by finding other ways to keep us playing, but by making games too easy. There's a difference.

Whatever the case, I do find it odd that people would complain about this platformer's "trial and error" gameplay, but not say the same thing about games like N+, Pixeljunk Monsters, or Ikaruga. Those games just get labeled as "difficult." Personally, I think when people don't like a difficult game they call it "unfair," but when they like a game, they call it "challenging."

I hear you, it's all semantics. When I said trial and error, I was referring to the immediate failure-n-retry mechanics ME shares with games like Ikaruga. You're not scoring browny points, not passing start and going straight to jail.

Whether this directly impacts difficulty is an interesting question. I mean all of us '80s gamers have asked ourselves that when we went back to classic game design that was all based around absolute failure. You snuff it you start from scratch. Personally I think it tests perseverance more than skill. You're learning patterns, whether pulling it off ultimately is difficult or not is another matter. ME is a great test subject as it isn't really difficult to get through once you trial-n-errored your way past a sequence. It only gets difficult and challenging when you try to beat the clock. Like surviving in Ika and scoring in Ika are two different games. Yet the definition gets blurred by the heavy toll the trial and error takes on motivation, and frustration is often mislabeled as difficutly as you so rightly say in your last paragraph.
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post #216 of 292
11/25/08 at 12:30pm
You folks above that think this game is "easy," I have no idea how that's possible. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I'm playing on Normal difficulty, no Runner Vision, and no shooting, and I've died plenty. Even on the earlier, much easier levels.

Either I suck a lot more than I think I do (which is entirely possible), or you all are doing something that I'm not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liersi View Post

ME is a great test subject as it isn't really difficult to get through once you trial-n-errored your way past a sequence. It only gets difficult and challenging when you try to beat the clock. Like surviving in Ika and scoring in Ika are two different games. Yet the definition gets blurred by the heavy toll the trial and error takes on motivation, and frustration is often mislabeled as difficutly as you so rightly say in your last paragraph.

Totally. We're talking two sides of the exact same coin here.

I'm just more likely to call a game that incessantly holds my hand "frustrating" than I am to call a game "frustrating" that borders on pure punishment.
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post #217 of 292
11/25/08 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

You folks above that think this game is "easy," I have no idea how that's possible. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I'm playing on Normal difficulty, no Runner Vision, and no shooting, and I've died plenty. Even on the earlier, much easier levels.

Either I suck a lot more than I think I do (which is entirely possible), or you all are doing something that I'm not.

.

I did die SEVERAL times too but it's hard to explain why I find this game easy.. I mean, yes there was parts I restarted a couple of times before passing them but overall, it goes pretty smoothly. It is also easy because I find the mechanic and control easy to use when you master them. I'm a fast paced guy so this game is a drug for me.. RUN RUN RUN

I haven't found a place/puzzle where I ask myself what to do, it's mostly HOW do I get there... so it's pretty easy with trials and errors

Don't know if I made myself clear... it's kinda clear in my mind ...
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post #218 of 292
11/25/08 at 7:22pm
^^^^Ah, ok, now I get you. I thought I was crazy bad for a second there (still totally possible).

Yeah, you often know what you're supposed to do, but it can take a few tries to get it right. But by chapter 6 I was having to do some "high-speed exploration" (best way to describe this game). Having dudes shooting at you that you can't kill or easily avoid makes finding a good route difficult to say the least.

But I've also found that by playing without Runner Vision and playing a few of the Time Trials, what I thought was an obvious route (even in the early levels) is usually only one of several.

EDIT: Just finished the game. Chapter 6 gave me the most problems. After that chapter, nothing else stumped me quite as bad. Overall, a very satisfying and refreshingly new experience.

I'm a little let down by the ending since it's not particularly dramatic or expected, but with some fine-tuning this could have been a truly exceptional game. As it is, this is among the most original and rewarding games I've played all year. Easily a B+ game (or "8.5" if you prefer a numerical grade).
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post #219 of 292
11/29/08 at 2:30pm
I thought the idea was creative but based on the demo this game is definitely not for me. The balance beam had me ready to throw the controller through the tv until I disabled motion and slowly walked across. Also I just find these games annoying when at certain points you haven't a clue where to go. The graphics didn't wow me either, jaggies everywhere.
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post #220 of 292
11/30/08 at 5:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by macd23 View Post

I thought the idea was creative but based on the demo this game is definitely not for me. The balance beam had me ready to throw the controller through the tv until I disabled motion and slowly walked across. Also I just find these games annoying when at certain points you haven't a clue where to go. The graphics didn't wow me either, jaggies everywhere.

Balancing is much easier with the joystick. The motion sensor is just too slow. And the "haven't a clue where to go" is part of the challenge
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post #221 of 292
11/30/08 at 9:39am
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Originally Posted by macd23 View Post

Also I just find these games annoying when at certain points you haven't a clue where to go.

Well, never get yourself into a movie like chase or flight scene.

You apparently wouldn't even make it anywhere close to the alien reactor....

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post #222 of 292
11/30/08 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasnmb View Post

is Fallout 3 really that good? I haven't played it yet. I was expecting MGS4 to get GOTY from most sites.

RPG of the year no question.
GOTY... perhaps.
regardless... yes - it really is that good IF you enjoy a solid RPG like oblivion. it's very different, though, and not nearly as deep as oblivion.

anyway... can't wait to try mirror's edge. just played the demo and though it was very well done.
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post #223 of 292
12/1/08 at 7:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by macd23 View Post

I thought the idea was creative but based on the demo this game is definitely not for me. The balance beam had me ready to throw the controller through the tv until I disabled motion and slowly walked across. Also I just find these games annoying when at certain points you haven't a clue where to go. The graphics didn't wow me either, jaggies everywhere.

Its called PUZZLE PLATFORMING....

I personally loved that part, I had to stop running(which you mostly do) and figured out a puzzle.
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post #224 of 292
12/1/08 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by so's your face View Post

RPG of the year no question.
GOTY... perhaps.
regardless... yes - it really is that good IF you enjoy a solid RPG like oblivion. it's very different, though, and not nearly as deep as oblivion.

anyway... can't wait to try mirror's edge. just played the demo and though it was very well done.

Completely with you on that. Now only if the character in Fallout3 had the ability to jump like Faith in ME..that would be awesome to clear those annoying blockages making you walk around it.

I recommend dremamine before playing this game.
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post #225 of 292
12/2/08 at 12:49pm
I'm a little late to this post but I thought I'd put my thoughts in. I've completed the game on normal difficulty, runner vision on. I personally loved the game. I'm running time trials (25 stars, just unlocked all Trials areas) and find it hugely entertaining (and frustrating). Any reveiwer that comments on the gunplay I immediately disregard, because they clearly didn't get the memo that this is not a First-Person Shooter (even though it's listed as such as sites like Gamespot). The best way I could describe it is a First-Person Platformer. And maybe I'm just in competent (or maybe the reviewers played the game on easy with a guide so they knew where to go) but I don't see how anyone could run this through in 7 hours on the first try.

I'd like to echo the comments before me. This game is a great return to the platformers of old like megaman where it's all about timing, skill, reflexes and most importantly practice. I recently completed the speedrun of Chapter 1, did I do it on the first try? Not even close, but I kept running it and looking for areas that I could use to shave a few seconds here and there and after several runs, boom, I beat the 6 min time. That's where the game shines.

Another complaint I've seen leveraged against the game is that you go into an area, hit the circle button and all it does is show you where to go, but not how to get there. Ding, chalk that up as another person who 'doesn't get it'. A friend of mine was playing The Orange Box earlier this year and kept complaining to me about how he doesn't know where to go. I just kept telling him, look around, you should be able to figure it out. He's recent gamer (really got started with the 360) and he's so used to the COD's, GRAW's and RB6's with their HUDs and arrows holding your hand that he got totally lost in HL2. I kept trying to explain to him that HL and HL2 are 'thinking' shooters but I don't think he ever really got it. But that is exactly what Mirror's Edge is. When you walk into the room, hit the circle button and see where to go, the fun is now saying, "okay, given the architecture of this area, how do I get there"

Anyway, it's a great game and I find it sucking away more of my time than a games like Gears 2 or Resistance 2.
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post #226 of 292
12/2/08 at 1:23pm
Good post. I'm considering this or Prince of Persia. I expect that they share some similarities in the gameplay and puzzle solving, with some drastic differences between them. Both, I expect, are loved and loathed by different sectors of the gaming community.
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post #227 of 292
12/2/08 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuncanR2N View Post

I'm a little late to this post but I thought I'd put my thoughts in. I've completed the game on normal difficulty, runner vision on. I personally loved the game. I'm running time trials (25 stars, just unlocked all Trials areas) and find it hugely entertaining (and frustrating). Any reveiwer that comments on the gunplay I immediately disregard, because they clearly didn't get the memo that this is not a First-Person Shooter (even though it's listed as such as sites like Gamespot). The best way I could describe it is a First-Person Platformer. And maybe I'm just in competent (or maybe the reviewers played the game on easy with a guide so they knew where to go) but I don't see how anyone could run this through in 7 hours on the first try.

I'd like to echo the comments before me. This game is a great return to the platformers of old like megaman where it's all about timing, skill, reflexes and most importantly practice. I recently completed the speedrun of Chapter 1, did I do it on the first try? Not even close, but I kept running it and looking for areas that I could use to shave a few seconds here and there and after several runs, boom, I beat the 6 min time. That's where the game shines.

Another complaint I've seen leveraged against the game is that you go into an area, hit the circle button and all it does is show you where to go, but not how to get there. Ding, chalk that up as another person who 'doesn't get it'. A friend of mine was playing The Orange Box earlier this year and kept complaining to me about how he doesn't know where to go. I just kept telling him, look around, you should be able to figure it out. He's recent gamer (really got started with the 360) and he's so used to the COD's, GRAW's and RB6's with their HUDs and arrows holding your hand that he got totally lost in HL2. I kept trying to explain to him that HL and HL2 are 'thinking' shooters but I don't think he ever really got it. But that is exactly what Mirror's Edge is. When you walk into the room, hit the circle button and see where to go, the fun is now saying, "okay, given the architecture of this area, how do I get there"

Anyway, it's a great game and I find it sucking away more of my time than a games like Gears 2 or Resistance 2.

I agree, good post. I am looking forward to getting this for Christmas.

JD
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post #228 of 292
12/2/08 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuncanR2N View Post

I'm a little late to this post but I thought I'd put my thoughts in.

Great post (and not just because I agree with you).

Mirror's Edge is a perfect example of how reviewing a game is very different from playing it. Reviewers (like many gamers with low attention spans) need a constant sense of forward progress. Any game that requires too much thinking, improvising, practice, or imagination is considered "lacking" or "disappointing."

Supposedly (based on the reviews) the new Prince of Persia is easy and not very challenging at all. But it's getting good reviews because reviewers like games that keep them moving forward without ever posing any difficulties or obstacles. This was my biggest problem with Mario Galaxy, but I know that the whole world disagrees with me about that one.

And if anyone wants in on some time trials competition, feel free to add me.
PSN: Volpone
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post #229 of 292
12/2/08 at 2:09pm
Mirror's Edge is a game not to be missed. You've never played anything quite like it before, and it's rewarding to progress through it. Being such a unique game, don't expect to just breeze through it using the same moves learned in other games. Like others here have said M.E. has its own set of rules for movement and puzzle solving, so you have to learn them to be successful. Maybe this is where people knock this game, but I like learning a new way to do things in games.

My only complaint about M.E. is the lack of real exploring, or a chance to check out the levels without something shooting you constantly. More of the hidden bags or other Easter eggs would be nice, too. But beating a level time trial, or finding the one bag you kept missing, far outweighs any negative I can come up with.
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post #230 of 292
12/3/08 at 6:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

Great post (and not just because I agree with you).

Mirror's Edge is a perfect example of how reviewing a game is very different from playing it. Reviewers (like many gamers with low attention spans) need a constant sense of forward progress. Any game that requires too much thinking, improvising, practice, or imagination is considered "lacking" or "disappointing."

Supposedly (based on the reviews) the new Prince of Persia is easy and not very challenging at all. But it's getting good reviews because reviewers like games that keep them moving forward without ever posing any difficulties or obstacles. This was my biggest problem with Mario Galaxy, but I know that the whole world disagrees with me about that one.

And if anyone wants in on some time trials competition, feel free to add me.
PSN: Volpone

Maybe that's why I despised a game like RE4, yet loved RE1, or SH 1 & 2 with hard puzzle mode..

I love games that make you explore, ponder, think and get you emotionally involved in plot. Absolutely hate games that take you from A to B to C to credit roll.

I don't play a game just to waste time, I play to be entertained by interactive media.
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post #231 of 292
12/3/08 at 7:13am
Ditto here. I hope to get Mirror's Edge for Christmas (my wife said I'm not allowed to buy any new games this month). I already know I'm getting MGS4 and Uncharted due to a carelessly disposed of Amazon shipping notice, but I hope Mirror's Edge makes it to. If not, I'll pick it up used, since I'm sure there are many people who don't enjoy it due to the reasons above.

That's probably why I prefer sandbox games like GTAIV, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, etc where I feel a sense that there's a living breathing world to explore and it's non-linear, rather than games that just funnel you through from point A to point B. Even the campaign of COD4 and Bioshock, while great, were still very linear.
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post #232 of 292
12/3/08 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash44 View Post

My only complaint about M.E. is the lack of real exploring, or a chance to check out the levels without something shooting you constantly.

Except that you can.

A few words about "exploration" in Mirror's Edge:

-Through the main storyline, there are two types of areas. The first is the fast-paced chase or chasing sequences. In these your "exploration" has to happen at MACH 4, but so long as you play without Runner Vision, you'll still be doing plenty of exploring. It's just under threat of imminent death. Since most reviewers played using Runner Vision, few talk about what the circle button does (or B button on 360). It continually points you in your target direction without telling you how to get there. So as you're running frantically, you can press this button for a sort of "hint" of where to go and where to focus your frenetic exploration. The second type are the slower-paced areas where you spend time puzzling through a series of obstacles without someone chasing you, or without you chasing someone else. These sections are all about slow, methodical exploration.

-Time trials are even more about exploration. As you start going for three-star runs--or even for top scores on the leaderboards--you have to continually explore and experiment with the environments. No enemies. Just a ticking clock. This, for me, is where the "meat" of the game is at. And it's full of exploration.

-Speed-runs are tough and give you no reason or time for exploration. By the time you try speed-runs, you shouldn't be exploring in these because you should have already played through the game once and worked on your time trial scores. I think of the speed-runs as combined time trials. All the sections you've been practicing in time trials get put together. All the routes you've mapped out in time trials get put to use. I've gotten at least one star in most of the time trials levels, but I've only managed to complete two levels of speed-runs under the target time. Regardless, there isn't much exploration in these. (EDIT: Though I was surprised to discover some great alternate routes in the earlier levels that I'd never considered. So maybe there is actually some exploration in speedruns).
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post #233 of 292
12/3/08 at 9:19pm
I wasn't insulting the US,just implying that parkour/free running is much more of a European thing. No I'm not a fan of Fallout 3,I feel it was of poor quality (other than when I shot the head off a dog and it rolled down a hill into some water,that was neat) and no site that gave GTA IV and MGS 4 a 10 that gave Fallout 3 less can justify giving it GOTY but those are the same sites that gave this a 7.

I'm also playing this without shooting anyone,no runner vision and no reticle. My biggest complaint is that there's often times she won't grab onto things. Otherwise a very fine game with solid gameplay,great artistic style and music.
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post #234 of 292
12/3/08 at 9:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegaz View Post

My biggest complaint is that there's often times she won't grab onto things.

Faith won't do a ledge grab from a coil jump (legs tucked)--even if you're not actively tucking your legs when you touch the ledge. Tuck your legs at any point during a jump, and she won't be able to grab anything at any point during the jump.

That was a decision made by the developers to keep people from making ridiculously far jumps (though there have been plenty of other exploits discovered regardless). Otherwise, you can pretty much grab onto any straight ledge that you can reach.

Also, I don't think liking or not liking this game has anything to do with whether or not one's European. I love this game. I'm not European. I also don't think this game feels particularly "European." I imagine the city much more as a futuristic Seattle or Portland more than as a futuristic Stockholm (or even Singapore, which was apparently the most direct inspiration).

As for Parkour being uniquely European, many folks in non-European countries of the Mediterranean (Algiers, for example) would disagree.
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post #235 of 292
12/5/08 at 3:33pm
This game is at Target right now for $44 bux.
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post #236 of 292
12/5/08 at 3:41pm
Has anyone seen the DLC time trial levels? They look awesome; I would've bought this game day-one if it was just a bunch of these crazy things.
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post #237 of 292
12/5/08 at 4:51pm
Yes and they look really cool. Its like VR missions from MGS, except designed for Faith.
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post #238 of 292
12/5/08 at 5:51pm
I'm really stoked for this DLC. The art design looks just like the paintings in the Office level.

I almost think they should've released the full version like this, too. Forget that lame "story." Everyone's playing ME for the time trials anyway.
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post #239 of 292
12/6/08 at 7:49pm
I wasn't tucking though,she just wouldn't grab it. Maybe the angles weren't right or something.

I said more of a European,not strictly. It's certianly bigger in other places than it is in North America so I'd trust reviews from the other places more.
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post #240 of 292
12/14/08 at 2:22pm
last night i was replaying the new eden chapter, and i spotted another runner! just after you do the double zipline thing and merc remarks that you should be able to get to the mall without getting shot, another runner appeared on the building across the street. he did a jump to the next building in parallel with faith, paused for a sec and then ran on and made a right turn, disappearing between some cooling towers.

i tried to follow, but they made sure there was nothing on his side of the street reachable from where faith was. i guess i never spotted him the first time i played through because i was so busy trying to stay alive. has anybody spotted any other runners "on the job" while playing?
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