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720p or 1080i on a 1080p tv?

post #1 of 18
5/9/08 at 6:21pm
Thread Starter 
I just got a new 1080p tv and I was wondering what setting to set my xbox to. If I understand correctly if I set my xbox to 720p the image will have to be scaled to 1080p, and if I set it to 1080i the image will have to be de-interlaced to 1080p. What do I set my xbox to? I heard that the xbox is a good scaler, and that most tvs are bad at de-interlacing. I can't set 1080p, I only have component cables and when set to 1080p I can see vertical bars when the screen is dark.
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post #2 of 18
5/9/08 at 7:45pm
That's an issue with your TV that you should look into. 1080p TVs shouldn't have such artifacts on screen with component cables.

In any case, 1080i is just as good as 1080p if you have a flat panel that deinterlaces properly. Another thing to note is that 99% of all video games on next gen systems are native 720p or LESS, but the 360 upscales to 1080p.

That being said, For a 1920x1080 TV, go with 1080i. Let the 360 upscale the games. The menus will look better in native resolution anyway.
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post #3 of 18
5/9/08 at 8:17pm
big controversy....

for video, yes, 1080i is the same as 1080p, if you can de-interlace properly.

for games on the other hand, i personally disagree, and besides, with 1080i you'll lose framerate as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-JXfyvlPh0
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post #4 of 18
5/9/08 at 11:09pm
I would set the 360 to 720P for games. That way there will be only one conversion.

I've always believed the fewer conversions the better. Less chance of lag or artifacts.
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post #5 of 18
5/9/08 at 11:44pm
seeing as how most games are actually only 720 i would say go with 720p.But its still left up to trying the different ones and seeing what looks best.
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post #6 of 18
5/10/08 at 6:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by formulanerd View Post

big controversy....

for video, yes, 1080i is the same as 1080p, if you can de-interlace properly.

for games on the other hand, i personally disagree, and besides, with 1080i you'll lose framerate as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-JXfyvlPh0

I wholeheartedly disagree. I've played plenty of games at 1080i and they stay at 60fps or 30fps depending on game. 1080i doesn't alter framerate, unless you just have a crappy TV. Even the crappiest 720p set I had (an old generation Insignia) played 1080i at 60fps with no issues.

Just play Ridge Racer 7 (a 1080p game) at 1080i on a 720p set. The framerate stays at 60fps (besides the slowdown caused by the game itself during intense moments where there are many cars onscreen). The game is also more detailed at 1080i than 720p on 1366x768 sets, with no motion artifacts associated with interlacing (provided the Tv in question is deinterlacing properly).

That video posted has some truths and myths. Perhaps in the early stages of plasma and lcd would 720p be better than 1080i. Nowadays, 1080i yields the best results.
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post #7 of 18
5/10/08 at 7:18am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DolfanJay View Post

I would set the 360 to 720P for games. That way there will be only one conversion.

I've always believed the fewer conversions the better. Less chance of lag or artifacts.

That's what I thought. Since most games are 720p native, I thought that if I set it to 720p, the game only has to be scaled to 1080p. But if I set it to 1080i, the game has to be scaled from 720p to 1080i and then de-interlaced. No?
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post #8 of 18
5/10/08 at 7:58am
Yes, but a good TV won't have 'artifacts', nor noticeable lag.

That said, I leave my girl's 1366x768 set on 720p anyway, as games are 720p for the most part anyway. But if/when games are 1080p (i.e, Ridge Racer 7 on the ps3, Virtua Tennis 3 on any console), 1080i is a better choice.
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post #9 of 18
5/10/08 at 9:13am
in a 60fps game (a TRUE 60fps game), 1080i will have motion artifacts as each field (half-frame) is different, and a good de-interlacer won't fix it.

You may not notice the artifacts, but they will be there. For video, each half-frame is the same, so a good deinterlacer will handle it perfectly.
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post #10 of 18
5/10/08 at 7:36pm
If you can't notice it, who the hell cares? Videophiles that swear by visual perfection? Utterly ridiculous.

1080i on a good 1366x768 is BETTER than 720p. Better to downscale and deinterlace a 1920x1080i signal to 1366x768p (keeping more detail and clarity) than upscaling a 1280x720p signal (which makes the image softer, blurrier, less detailed).

There is no framerate loss, and whomever wants to argue this needs a better tv to test out true 1920x1080 on a good 1366x768 set.

And yes, I know a TRUE 60fps game over a 30fps game or any variation in between. I'm a 60fps nut and it irks me when new games are out and they're 30fps.

60fps games on the 360 (examples):

Virtua Tennis 3
Ridge Racer 6
Call of Duty 4
Dead or Alive

30fps games:

Lost Odyssey
Halo 3
Mass Effect
Army of Two
Dark Sector
The Orange Box

Keep in mind that most of these games are 720p or less anyway.

And here I thought a good deinterlacer captures both 540p fields and then displays them at once, making it JUST AS GOOD as 1080p.

Anyone wanna dispute me over how good Ridge Racer 7 looks on my Samsung 2353H in 1080i compared to 720p is gonna be in for a big fight. It's not only CRYSTAL CLEAR and PERFECT, but there are NO noticeable artifacts, or framerate loss whatsoever. Get yourself a ps3 and try it out before preaching about how 720p is always better than 1080i on a 720p set. Jesus...
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post #11 of 18
5/10/08 at 10:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin CZ View Post

Just play Ridge Racer 7


yikes! no thanks.
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post #12 of 18
5/11/08 at 2:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin CZ View Post

If you can't notice it, who the hell cares? Videophiles that swear by visual perfection? Utterly ridiculous.

1080i on a good 1366x768 is BETTER than 720p. Better to downscale and deinterlace a 1920x1080i signal to 1366x768p (keeping more detail and clarity) than upscaling a 1280x720p signal (which makes the image softer, blurrier, less detailed).

...

Yes but the problem with what you are saying is that most of these games were never 1920x1080i to begin with. They are rendered at 720P. If you set the X360 to 1080i the X360 renders the game at 720P then converts it to 1080i then your TV reconverts it to its native resolution.

1080i was mostly included as an option to give people with older CRT Rear projectors and Tube TVs backward compatibility because many of these wont accept a 720P signal. Look what some people were going through with the PS3 if their TV didnt accept 720P.

What I'm saying only only applies to games that are rendered at 720P. If your watching HD-DVDs I would use 1080i or if the game is 1080P I would use 1080P.
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post #13 of 18
5/11/08 at 4:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin CZ View Post

Just play Ridge Racer 7 (a 1080p game) at 1080i on a 720p set. The framerate stays at 60fps (besides the slowdown caused by the game itself during intense moments where there are many cars onscreen). The game is also more detailed at 1080i than 720p on 1366x768 sets, with no motion artifacts associated with interlacing (provided the Tv in question is deinterlacing properly).

You simply can't get both the same framerate and the same resolution as a progressive 60hz signal with interlaced one, it is either half the framerate or half the resolution.
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post #14 of 18
5/11/08 at 5:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DolfanJay View Post

What I'm saying only only applies to games that are rendered at 720P. If your watching HD-DVDs I would use 1080i or if the game is 1080P I would use 1080P.

Then you are correct. For games that are 720p, it's wise to set your 360 to 720p. For games that are native at 1920x1080, it's best to set your 360 to 1080i, as you'll keep more detail as it's downscaled to 1366x768 (unless you have a true 1280x720 tv).
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post #15 of 18
5/11/08 at 5:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kylebisme View Post

You simply can't get both the same framerate and the same resolution as a progressive 60hz signal with interlaced one, it is either half the framerate or half the resolution.

YES YOU CAN, WHEN BOTH FIELDS OF AN INTERLACED SIGNAL ARE CAPTURED AND THEN DISPLAYED. This is a correct way of deinterlacing, in which the 2353H does and then downscales to fit the resoltuion of the TV.

I'm not gonna discuss this any further with you. Come to my house then so you can finally put this to rest. A 1920x1080i signal DOWNSCALED to 1366x768 yields better detail and SAME framerate as a 1280x720p signal. This is on my Samsung 2353H. Every TV is different, so if you have issues with 1080i, tough luck.

EVERY lcd and plasma are progressive by nature, so no matter what the signal, you will always get the native resolution of the TV set PROGRESSIVELY.

That means that on my small 2353H, I get 1366x768p NO MATTER WHAT.

Want to know WHEN I DO get interlacing artifacts? When I watch a standard DVD upconverted to 1080i by the XBox Elite via HDMI. In which the artifacts are caused by the 360, not the TV. NEVER have I had framerate issues.

60fps looks like 'video' or 'live tv'. No matter what resolution the signal, a 60fps signal STAYS 60fps.

On my ps3, a standard DVD upscaled to 1080i has NO interlacing issues.

So to review...

1920x1080 native OR upscaled video games (either ps3 or 360) have no visual artifacts or framerate loss (60fps stays 60fps or 30fps stays 30fps, etc.)

1920x1080i Blu-Ray or upconverted DVD's on my ps3 have no artifacts or framerate loss.

1920x1080i UPCONVERTED DVD's on my 360 HAVE interlacing artifacts but never framerate issues. I haven't tested HD-DVDs.

Don't argue with me on this.

If by framerate issues you mean COD4 (60fps) looking more like Halo 3 (30fps) when it comes to movement fluidity, you're incredibly incorrect.
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post #16 of 18
5/11/08 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin CZ View Post

YES YOU CAN, WHEN BOTH FIELDS OF AN INTERLACED SIGNAL ARE CAPTURED AND THEN DISPLAYED. This is a correct way of deinterlacing, in which the 2353H does and then downscales to fit the resoltuion of the TV.

I'm not gonna discuss this any further with you. Come to my house then so you can finally put this to rest. A 1920x1080i signal DOWNSCALED to 1366x768 yields better detail and SAME framerate as a 1280x720p signal. This is on my Samsung 2353H. Every TV is different, so if you have issues with 1080i, tough luck.

EVERY lcd and plasma are progressive by nature, so no matter what the signal, you will always get the native resolution of the TV set PROGRESSIVELY.

That means that on my small 2353H, I get 1366x768p NO MATTER WHAT.

Want to know WHEN I DO get interlacing artifacts? When I watch a standard DVD upconverted to 1080i by the XBox Elite via HDMI. In which the artifacts are caused by the 360, not the TV. NEVER have I had framerate issues.

60fps looks like 'video' or 'live tv'. No matter what resolution the signal, a 60fps signal STAYS 60fps.

On my ps3, a standard DVD upscaled to 1080i has NO interlacing issues.

So to review...

1920x1080 native OR upscaled video games (either ps3 or 360) have no visual artifacts or framerate loss (60fps stays 60fps or 30fps stays 30fps, etc.)

1920x1080i Blu-Ray or upconverted DVD's on my ps3 have no artifacts or framerate loss.

1920x1080i UPCONVERTED DVD's on my 360 HAVE interlacing artifacts but never framerate issues. I haven't tested HD-DVDs.

Don't argue with me on this.

If by framerate issues you mean COD4 (60fps) looking more like Halo 3 (30fps) when it comes to movement fluidity, you're incredibly incorrect.

This has all been done to death here in the past. So, I won't rehash everything here, but just summarize:

1080i is 30 frames per second with 60 interlaced fields per second. Each field is 1920 x 540 pixels, that is half the full resolution. 720P is 1280 x 720 pixels at 60 frames per second progressive. If the 360 renders a game at 720p, then there are 60 full 1280 x 720p frames. If you convert that to 1080i, then you must throw away half the pixels, since 1080i is interlaced with only half the pixels of a full 60P frame in each field. Deinterlacing cannot recover pixels that were thrown away. Alternatively, the 360 could throw away every other frame and interlace the remaining 30 frames per second, but still, you don't get something for nothing. Either you give up half the spatial resolution, or you give up half the temporal resolution. Deinterlacing a true video signal that started life as 720P and was converted to 1080i is an imperfect process at best. For original film content, the story is different, but I won't get into that here.

Bottom line is, if you like 720P converted to 1080i, deinterlaced and displayed at 1080p or 720p or 768p or whatever, then enjoy. Don't let anyone here detract from your enjoyment, by pointing out facts.

P.J.
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post #17 of 18
5/11/08 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin CZ View Post

If by framerate issues you mean COD4 (60fps) looking more like Halo 3 (30fps) when it comes to movement fluidity, you're incredibly incorrect.

No, I mean when you run COD4 at 1080i you are getting 60 frames a second rescaled to 1920x540 rather than the 60 frames a second scaled to 1920x1080 which you get at 1080p.
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post #18 of 18
5/11/08 at 11:49am
kyle, i wouldn't bother trying to argue with this guy, he obviously doesn't understand how it works.
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