Best sub EQ under $400 - Page 49

Oh, I wasn't aware the AntiMode will not boost dips. That's useful to know. Similarly I also discovered that the parametric EQ on my sub (a SVS PB13) will only cut not boost.

So what EQs out there can do both cut and boost?

Or alternatively, if the AntiMode can cut the region between 16-44 Hz and bring it more in line with the rest that would work also right? Any guesses if the AntiMode algorithm would do that in my case?


That's what I hear a lot, movement of a few inches can make a big difference. In my case, I did some coarse movements first (i.e. moving the sub in increments of 12 inches sideways). In all positions there's still that dip around 40-80 Hz (though the shape and degree might vary a little). I might try a few more fine movements (increments of 3 inches) but I'm not hopeful of a lift in the 40-80 Hz region.

Can bass traps help? I was under the impression they can cut peaks but not boost dips.

If Antimode leaves a dip, it's because it should not be meddled with. Adding more subs can help address dips, if positioned well.

Certainly if an EQ device (whether AntiMode or otherwise) leaves a dip after the calibration, then I won't meddle with its decision. My concern was more about the correction options available in a device. My thinking is that the more options the better; so a device that can do cut and boost might be more versatile than one that can do cut alone.

Note: my graphs above show raw freq response from the sub. No EQ of any kind applied and AVR bypassed.

Adding more subs can certainly help, though my budget doesn't allow for that at the moment.

No amount of boost can correct a dip because a dip is a function of the room's dimensions, the frequency in question, and the interaction of the sound waves in the room. When and where positive and negative waveforms intersect, they creat a null and cancel each other out, and no amount of boost will fix that.

Moving subwoofers, or adding subwoofers as Roger suggested, or moving your seating arrangement, is the only fix.

Hope this makes sense to you, because you could waste a lot of time looking for an EQ solution that will "Fix" a null.

I see. I always thought it's just a matter of getting an EQ (say one of those old school slider types) and say push the 50Hz slider up a few dB. If I recall, the AS-EQ1 can boost by up to +6 dB (or something like that).

That's why I thought there was an EQ solution out there that can help.

The Audyssey program does add boosts, to a moderate degree.

I'm sure there are some that boost frequencies, but if you're dealing with a true null, it won't do a any good.

Actually, if the dip is wide enough and otherwise well-behaving (i.e. not a null that no amount of boost will correct), Anti-Mode can boost it a few dB. This can be seen in at least some of the before-after measurements that various people have made of their setups.

If you try to boost more, the effect on decay times will be considerable. A uniform decay is much more important than a few dB ripple in the amplitude response.

Is there any way to tell if a dip is a true null or not?

I just won a Velodyne SMS-1 on eBay for $360. It's supposedly only a couple months old and includes all the original items, documentation, and box. Can't wait to try it out!

But you would still have to convert xlr to rca to go into the 8033.

would that make sense?

Joel

You make a good point. I'm still not sure if there is an advantage to have a sub connection that is partially balanced.

Bill

If you can turn off smoothing or set it low enough when you make measurements, then yes. A null is quite narrow and quite deep. If the graph has smoothing you can't tell if it is either.

It depends on where the signal is most suscectible to interference and whether your sub has wide enough range in the volume control (using balanced XLR also doubles the voltage swing).

If your sub only has XLR input, you may not want to use the single-ended RCA-to-XLR conversion when you have the option of using balanced.

In most conditions simple RCA all the way is good enough. Only if you encounter issues with it, try balanced out.

I just got my hands on an AntiMode and have a few questions (please)

What's the max db correction on Anti-Mode? Meaning if you have a peak of 10dbs at say 50hz, will Anti Mode correct the full 10dbs or only say about 6db of the 10dbs?

If you run Anti-mode and still notice some peaks but the rest of the signal seems flat, will adjusting the volume on the Sub (turning it up and or down) and re-running Anti-Mode help at all? Or is that only an issue that a different sub placement and room treatments can help.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

I had some questions about using the XTZ Room Analyzer and asked Kal in a pm; he thought the discussion was relevant enough to post in general.

My question was how to plug the XTZ RCA cable into my AVR (Onkyo 1007); do I use the Y-cable supplied with the XTZ and plug it into an open stereo input of the 1007 (e.g., the VCR input), or not use the Y-cable. My interest is in using the XTZ to check out the response of my full audio system, after running the 8033 Antimode followed by Audyssey. I've just gotten the XTZ and am unsure about how to set it up.

Actually, I meant this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post18940641

Tx; didn't know of this thread!

10dB or 18dB is not a problem for Anti-Mode. In theory the correction is limited by the 32-bit arithmetic, in practise it is limited by the dynamic range of the measurement.


After running Anti-Mode you should not see any major peaks, but you can still see nulls. Also, you must look at the unsmoothed decay plot (waterfall graph) to see how effective the correction is. Some variation in the amplitude response is okay as long as the decay times are consistent.

In a linear system adjusting the volume just brings the sound pressure level up and down, it does not affect the response in other ways. So, if you have a bad null at the listening position, you may try another sub placement. With Anti-Mode you can also try corner placement, which is otherwise not recommended.

Thanks for responding! I really appreciate the input. I was able to run it last night and I do have a peak at 50hz that Anti-Mode has resolved. So far it sounds better but I will experiment with Sub placement (I should say Sub orientation as I am very limited to where I can place my sub but can re-angle which seems to make a difference on how it sound at the listening position) and adjust distance settings in AVR and listen to it some more over this weekend and the next week.

Scratch this. The seller said he found something wrong with it and refunded my money. I'm okay with that; after doing more research, I ordered the Anti-Mode.

Actually, it is the unit circle radiual model in the AM algorithm that is bounded by 32-bit arithmetic, however zeros can (in theory) be inserted exactly on the unit circle. So the theoretical suppression is really infinity.

But as said, the maximum correction is bounded by measurement dynamics and microphone, yielding the maximum attenuation of about -60dB in most environments. In practice, the largest corrections that have been recorded on the unit (by measuring or by looking at the data parameters in simulation version) have been in the range -30dB with T_20 of -400ms.

The AM-technology is very different compared to other "new" EQ technologies, as it in fact excels in the most difficult rooms, and can remedy more severe problems than other approaches.

If you can place it into the corner, you will get the flattest response with fastest bass decay (least ringing) and deepest reach (lowest frequency limit). This is they key with the Anti-Mode technology.

The full TAS magazine review:
http://www.avguide.com/review/dspeak...alizer-tas-204

Another new review:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue50/dspeaker.htm

The more I play with BFD (FBQ2496), the more I like it. In fact I can do multiple seat measurement and EQ it using REW. I'm thinking to have a different strategy with multiple seat. As normally I'm the one sit in the golden seat, I'll use a center weight averaging method. I'll put 50% of the priority on my golden seat. Example, if I had 6 position, I'll take 5 measurement at the middle seat, then another 5 for the rest of the position. This will give me 50% of averaging at center position.

Thanks for the reviews above - I'm very close to grabbing this!

I bought the Anti Mode from Simplifiaudio and paid via PayPal on the 29th of July. I called them on Monday morning 2nd of Aug and was told that they were busy with a trade show and didn't process any orders since I had paid them. I call on Tuesday and was told that it would ship that day. Yesterday, got a email confirming Priority mail to me in transit. Now Thursday nite and Postal tracking shows it went through the Federal Way, WA sort center at 4:35 this morning (approx 60 miles from me) and I'm still waiting tonite. Probably get it on Friday the 6th. That will be 7 days and they advertise free shipping via Priority mail (2 to 3 days). I ordered one last year from Finland and got I within 3 days. I can get it delivered from half way around the world in 3 days and now 7 days from California?

Bill

Took me 2 wks. the first lost in the mail? It was a long 2 wks.

From the same place I got mine from? If so, I think that DSpeaker needs a new American rep.

OK I got a question to everyone here. I read through the first 20 pages which answers most things, but if the question is answered in the next 29 pages (that I haven't gotten through yet then I apologize).

I have an Aperion 10D subwoofer. I also have a HK subwoofer that was part of the HKTS10 set. The sub was supposed to be the star of that set and the speakers really aren't that bad so I am thinking about using both subs -- hey it is just sitting so why not try it out. It is a 150W sub and I figured I would just use a y cable and hook it all up.

1) Is it a bad idea to run 2 different subs like this?
2) Do I need to do something to get them "syncronized"?
3) (the real question for this thread) - does the anti-mode help with "tuning / syncronizing" both subwoofers so they sound good together or how does this work?

Sorry for the novice questions, but when it comes to the audio portion I am just years behind and with work and family just don't have the time to run tests and figure out charts etc so really appreciate a solution like the anti-mode even if it doesn't get me 100% there I would be thrilled with 90%.

Currently I am definately not getting the subwoofer experience that I have been looking for. I plan on some room treatments this winter, but want to start out with an EQ

THANKS!

I've had a XTZ Room Analyzer a couple of weeks now, and yesterday did a series of measurements that may be interesting for those here. The XTZ doesn't do any eq itself, simply measures the freq response (and waterfalls, i.e., the time decay for each frequency) in the sub region, 8 - 250 Hz, and also the entire freq range via RTA at lower resolution.

I did the measurements with no eq, with the AntiMode 8033 only, and with Audyssey (in my Onk 1007 avr) only. I found the AM to do better than Audyssey for the sub region (though Audyssey eq's the entire freq spectrum, and also has other features, e.g., Dynamics EQ): over the sub region the AM evened the response to +/- 3 dB from 16 - 250 Hz, with waterfalls that have essentially fallen to nothing in just over 100 msec; the only longer decays were in the very low region 8-16 Hz, and probably due to vibrations of items in the room.

My procedure is thus to run the AM first to even out the sub region, and then to run Audyssey; this allows Audyssey to set distances/delay times that include those from the AM. And then I run the AM once more since it does a better job on the sub region.

So I fine the AntiMode to be the best thing I have found for the sub region eq. I had a SMS-1, and have also used a BFD, but were never able to dial things in as well as the AM does. And having the XTZ be able to measure what one is getting has been invaluable.

PS I have only 1 sub, a Seaton SubMersive, in a medium/small room (~2200 cu ft) that is fairly 'soft', i.e., rugs, couch, etc.