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Best sub EQ under $400 - Page 2

post #31 of 1766
5/19/08 at 6:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEL79 View Post

It has 24 peak reducing AMFs (Anti-Modal oscillation filters), of which 3 are capable to raise wide dips by a few dB. It does not try to raise narrow local nulls as they shouldn't.
The calibration can also be done to wider area with 2nd phase calibration, which will employ 6 extra AMFs reserved for this purpose.

So if theres a deep dip(-15dB) in lets say the 30-60 Hz range its not going to attempt to raise that flat by boosting it by +15 dB in that area correct? Also could you clarify your second statement?
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post #32 of 1766
5/19/08 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZER STRIKE View Post

So if theres a deep dip(-15dB) in lets say the 30-60 Hz range its not going to attempt to raise that flat by boosting it by +15 dB in that area correct? Also could you clarify your second statement?

The boosting is limited and depends on the bandwidth of the notch (expected energy), and its never more than say +4-5 dB. So 8033 would never make +15dB correction, as it would very likely be disasterous in everywhere else but in the exact point of measurement.

What I meant on the second statement was, that in many cases,the calibration only needs to do notching type filters for optimal result, no raising at all. This is because the device can tell if a null is too narrow and local to be compensated. Suppressive Anti-Modal filters on the other hand, have unlimited freedom in q-values, center frequencies, asymmetry, bandwidths etc. parameters. So even if you have a monsterous +40 dB peak, it will be leveled by 8033.
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post #33 of 1766
5/19/08 at 6:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEL79 View Post


What I meant on the second statement was, that in many cases,the calibration only needs to do notching type filters for optimal result, no raising at all. This is because the device can tell if a null is too narrow and local to be compensated. Suppressive Anti-Modal filters on the other hand, have unlimited freedom in q-values, center frequencies, asymmetry, bandwidths etc. parameters. So even if you have a monsterous +40 dB peak, it will be leveled by 8033.

So when using other filters besides the Anti modal type they will not level a +40 dB peak?

Also could you explain to me what the 2 outputs labeled 0 and 180 are for?
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post #34 of 1766
5/19/08 at 7:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZER STRIKE View Post

So when using other filters besides the Anti modal type they will not level a +40 dB peak?

Also could you explain to me what the 2 outputs labeled 0 and 180 are for?

Sure, but some automatic EQs have limited their bandstop notching filters to -24dB.

The point of AMFs is to reduce the ringing times as much as possible. Especially when the subwoofer is in corner, AMFs make the attenuation of the standing waves faster (Hence the name Anti-Mode)

The 0 output is the normal in-phase output and 180 is inverted phase. Together they can be used to bridge a normal stereo power amplifier for greater power. Most users dont need the 180 out to anything, when using a normal active subwoofer.

The idea of 8033 is to deliver extremely precise but easy-to-use automatic equalization in economical price range. It was launched only about 5 months ago and uses state-of-the-art DSP technology and room analyzation algorithms. It uses standard RCAs common in Home Theater environments and the calibration is literally one press of a button. The microphone is included in the price, and it is essentially the exactly same capsule as in popular Behringers ECM8000.

Here's an example of a room response before


...and after automatic calibration of 8033 (with lifting filter at 25Hz activated)
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post #35 of 1766
5/19/08 at 9:59pm
I got a email back from the folks who have the 8033 and was told that you can use this unit with multiple subs if they are on the same output. I'm thinking of giving it a try with my two HSU 3.3's, and two MBM-12's.
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post #36 of 1766
5/19/08 at 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I got a email back from the folks who have the 8033 and was told that you can use this unit with multiple subs if they are on the same output. I'm thinking of giving it a try with my two HSU 3.3's, and two MBM-12's.

let us know what you think about the results. I've had the FBQ2496 for about a month, kinda wishing I would have held out a little longer now, but isn't that the way it always goes . Not that I'm displeased in anyway, it's been a great addition to the system.
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post #37 of 1766
5/19/08 at 11:17pm
If I read the website right, its a one shot deal, place the mic in one position, and not multiple to get a better "view" of the room. First I am not knocking that, cause it can work good to great for a 5~ foot diameter circle give or take....(pulled the 5 foot diameter out of the air, hehehehe)

But, I have a Behringer FD 1124, and can take multiple sweeps from different positions to average the filters that are added, so a wider listening audience can get a better average, but since the 1124 has 10 presets I can also do one preset for the sweet spot, one with a house curve at the sweet spot, one for an average across the room, one with a house curve averaged ETC. (oh and one so the neighbors don't get ticked off at us...) ETC.

The SVS EQ is certainly looking expensive compared to everything else.
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post #38 of 1766
5/19/08 at 11:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRR View Post

If I read the website right, its a one shot deal, place the mic in one position, and not multiple to get a better "view" of the room.

Hmmm, i was under the impression that you could take multiple reference points.
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post #39 of 1766
5/19/08 at 11:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakeman02 View Post

let us know what you think about the results. I've had the FBQ2496 for about a month, kinda wishing I would have held out a little longer now, but isn't that the way it always goes . Not that I'm displeased in anyway, it's been a great addition to the system.

If you are happy with manual parametric EQ and you have successfully equalized the room with it, then it'll work just fine. The greates assets of 8033 Anti-Mode due reviews and user opinions are:
- it's easy to use (fully automatic)
- does not need any computer setup or extra mic for own measurements
- the result is way better than previous (and even much more expensive) automatic EQs using conventional approach

In time domain, 8033 will give slightly better decay times to the ringing of the modes compared to normal manually configurable bi-quad notching filters, especially when the subwoofer is positined near the wall or to the corner. The device has a normal 2 weeks trial period when bought from VLSI web store, so that if you are not happy you can cancel the deal. Out of hundreds of units sold in the first few months in Northern Europe, only two units have been returned (the customers had sold their subwoofers).
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post #40 of 1766
5/19/08 at 11:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZER STRIKE View Post

Hmmm, i was under the impression that you could take multiple reference points.

Yes, you can calibrate for wider area. Theres a secondary calibration when Bypass button is pressed and held. In the manual there are explained a couple of methods to do this instead of just random points.

http://www.dspeaker.com/fileadmin/da...mode8033en.pdf

page 7, "Wider area correction"
In "gradient method", the result is better with 2 points than it would usually be with any combination of multiple random points. This is because the algorithm can assume certain things about axial modes with it.
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post #41 of 1766
5/20/08 at 12:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEL79 View Post

Yes, you can calibrate for wider area. Theres a secondary calibration when Bypass button is pressed and held. In the manual there are explained a couple of methods to do this instead of just random points.

http://www.dspeaker.com/fileadmin/da...mode8033en.pdf

page 7, "Wider area correction"
In "gradient method", the result is better with 2 points than it would usually be with any combination of multiple random points. This is because the algorithm can assume certain things about axial modes with it.

Ok cool, two or more positions, with the first one weighted as higher priority? Someone give me $300 please. Oh and explain to the wife that I need to dump the 1124 we got last week, and why the Audyssey on our receiver isn't good enough. If someone can do all three I will wash their windows for ten years straight, well at least 5 years, maybe 3, for sure 2, with out a doubt one year, well 1 time this year if you bring your house to me.
Thanks,
SRR
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post #42 of 1766
5/20/08 at 12:09am
I have a very basic question, as I am just learning about eq for subwoofers. I read that a flat response is actually not preferred. What is desired is a "house curve," with more emphasis on the lower frequencies. You may have already answered my question, but in a more technical way. My question is does the 8033 give the option to have different frequency curves so that I can pick which sounds best to me?
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post #43 of 1766
5/20/08 at 12:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by David HT guy View Post

I have a very basic question, as I am just learning about eq for subwoofers. I read that a flat response is actually not preferred. What is desired is a "house curve," with more emphasis on the lower frequencies. You may have already answered my question, but in a more technical way. My question is does the 8033 give the option to have different frequency curves so that I can pick which sounds best to me?

8033 has 3 different "house" curves, flat and two boosted (one around 20-40Hz and the other around 30-60Hz). However, you can also calibrate the 8033 with subwoofers lowpass on "flat", keep the 8033 on "flat" and after calibration use the lowpass of the subwoofer to achieve any kind of "house curve".

The flat is all flat down to 5Hz, and here are the other two presets (sorry about the image quality). The boosting presets also activate infrasonic filter, so that the frequency content below 15Hz is suppressed to avoid the subwoofer amplifiers clipping or excessive cone movement. In "flat" there is no infrasonic filter, the 8033 will go the way down below to 5Hz (-3dB). The ADC and DAC have very steep DC-blocks on 8033. So unlike some other auto-EQ, 8033 can be used with ultra-low reproducing subs (frequencies below 10Hz). The correction range, however, is 16Hz -144 Hz.

"Lift 25Hz"


"Lift 35Hz"


Considering the SRRs question about priority on the first measurement point: Yes, the first point is treated as the primary point, giving it more weight compared to the following points. For example if you have a couch, the center can be used for primary calibration, and sides as secondary. This way the sides on the couch will get rather good response, but not so with too much cost on the response of the center position
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post #44 of 1766
5/20/08 at 6:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEL79 View Post

8033 has 3 different "house" curves, flat and two boosted (one around 20-40Hz and the other around 30-60Hz). However, you can also calibrate the 8033 with subwoofers lowpass on "flat", keep the 8033 on "flat" and after calibration use the lowpass of the subwoofer to achieve any kind of "house curve".

Wont boosting send distortion through the roof and kill head room in that area? When it comes to EQing i have always heard cutting down peaks is the way to go, and attempting to get a flat FR(frequency response) after that by raising nulls, dips or valleys will kill your hear room and raise distortion in that area. If you also try and boost the bottom end from flat you will kill your subs amp and again raise distortion. This is what i have heard and to me it makes sense.
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post #45 of 1766
5/20/08 at 7:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZER STRIKE View Post

Wont boosting send distortion through the roof and kill head room in that area? When it comes to EQing i have always heard cutting down peaks is the way to go, and attempting to get a flat FR(frequency response) after that by raising nulls, dips or valleys will kill your hear room and raise distortion in that area. If you also try and boost the bottom end from flat you will kill your subs amp and again raise distortion. This is what i have heard and to me it makes sense.

Yes, thats why Anti-Mode 8033 only cuts the peaks in the default (flat) operation mode, so the signal headroom is in fact improved by the process. The energy and amplitude output is smaller than input, as the room will give reinforcing to the acoustic pressure signal for free on those frequencies. The boosting curves in 8033 are both user controllable and can be turned off. As you thought, boosting decreases signal headroom or alternatively lifts noise floor. Depending how it's done, it makes changes to the distortion characteristics. However, the signal headroom is usually not the problem (except on near-infinite nulls that should never be attempted to be compensated), as limited cone movement sets the limiting factor earlier.

In some situations carefully controlled boosting can sound better. For example take a case where the lower end response is dropping off too quickly because of the subwoofer - room interaction, but the subwoofers power amplifier and driver-enclosure system would have 'reserves' to make the neccessary boosting. As result of slight boosting, you'd get flatter and deeper reaching response, but the lowest frequency might get distorted or contaminated earlier on very loud pressure levels. So in the end you traded off maximum undistorted level to get better overall response at normal listening volumes.

In general, because a subwoofer is limited band loudspeaker, it cannot generate the worst intermodulation distortion components with doppler spread and such. It mostly genererates harmonic and random contamination distortions. Relative to these, even rough saturation of the signal would be inaudible. So whether the boosting is for better or worse, is always dependent more or less on the situation and personal preferences. Therefore it was made user controllable in 8033.
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post #46 of 1766
5/20/08 at 7:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEL79 View Post

Yes, thats why Anti-Mode 8033 only cuts the peaks in the default (flat) operation mode, so the signal headroom is in fact improved by the process. The energy and amplitude output is smaller than input, as the room will give reinforcing to the acoustic pressure signal for free on those frequencies. The boosting curves in 8033 are both user controllable and can be turned off. As you thought, boosting decreases signal headroom or alternatively lifts noise floor. Depending how it's done, it makes changes to the distortion characteristics. However, the signal headroom is usually not the problem (except on near-infinite nulls that should never be attempted to be compensated), as limited cone movement sets the limiting factor earlier.

In some situations carefully controlled boosting can sound better. For example take a case where the lower end response is dropping off too quickly because of the subwoofer - room interaction, but the subwoofers power amplifier and driver-enclosure system would have 'reserves' to make the neccessary boosting. As result of slight boosting, you'd get flatter and deeper reaching response, but the lowest frequency might get distorted or contaminated earlier on very loud pressure levels. So in the end you traded off maximum undistorted level to get better overall response at normal listening volumes.

In general, because a subwoofer is limited band loudspeaker, it cannot generate the worst intermodulation distortion components with doppler spread and such. It mostly genererates harmonic and random contamination distortions. Relative to these, even rough saturation of the signal would be inaudible. So whether the boosting is for better or worse, is always dependent more or less on the situation and personal preferences. Therefore it was made user controllable in 8033.

Ok, i see.

By user controllable do you mean one could custom EQ his subs using the 8033?
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post #47 of 1766
5/20/08 at 8:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEL79 View Post

and after calibration use the lowpass of the subwoofer to achieve any kind of "house curve".

What is the "lowpass" of the subwoofer.
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post #48 of 1766
5/20/08 at 8:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZER STRIKE View Post

Wont boosting send distortion through the roof and kill head room in that area? When it comes to EQing i have always heard cutting down peaks is the way to go, and attempting to get a flat FR(frequency response) after that by raising nulls, dips or valleys will kill your hear room and raise distortion in that area. If you also try and boost the bottom end from flat you will kill your subs amp and again raise distortion. This is what i have heard and to me it makes sense.

I got my information about house curves at the hometheatershack. Here is one article.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ed-how-do.html
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post #49 of 1766
5/20/08 at 9:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZER STRIKE View Post

Ok, i see.

By user controllable do you mean one could custom EQ his subs using the 8033?

I mean that after the automatic calibration, you can select one of the three target curve settings on 8033. This setting does not affect to any of the 24 correction Anti-Modal filters that are automatically designed during the calibrations. In most cases flat is the best option. Those three user selectable settings are just small nuance you can try and use to tweak the lower end response. The real meat of the 8033 is the ability to automatically design 24 custom AMFs to counter the room.
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post #50 of 1766
5/20/08 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by David HT guy View Post

What is the "lowpass" of the subwoofer.

It's the filter that filters out higher frequencies, it may also contain adjustable cutoff frequency. It's not that neccessary if the A/V receiver or other source of the sub has decent cross-over filter.

Using the lowpass on subwoofer (or X-over on A/V receiver) you can basically set the desired target curve, if you don't prefer flat response. Therefore the 8033 Anti-Mode can simply be calibrated to get as flat response as possible, and any additional coloration can be added in advance or after it. So you can use presets of 8033, subwoofer lowpass, X-over, or all of them to make additional shaping to the response.

The most important thing to get tight transient response and accurate bass reproduction is to counter the room modes, get rid of the "boomy" sound that just masks under everything else happening down there. This is what 8033 really is designed to do.
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post #51 of 1766
5/26/08 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I got a email back from the folks who have the 8033 and was told that you can use this unit with multiple subs if they are on the same output. I'm thinking of giving it a try with my two HSU 3.3's, and two MBM-12's.

bump. hoping to hear about your experience with the unit.
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post #52 of 1766
5/27/08 at 3:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Looks like a really neat product for $317 US.

Is this price correct after currency conversion and tax?
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post #53 of 1766
5/27/08 at 10:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Is this price correct after currency conversion and tax?

Yes, if you buy it to the US you dont need to pay the EU tax (VAT). However, the shipping with courier will be little more expensive to US. So the total costs will be slightly less than 400$ to US including shipping with current currency rates.
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post #54 of 1766
6/2/08 at 7:12pm
Ordered the 8033B tonight and am looking forward to trying it out. Will post info after I get it up and running.

Bill
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post #55 of 1766
6/2/08 at 7:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Ordered the 8033B tonight and am looking forward to trying it out. Will post info after I get it up and running.

Bill

Bill,

That is great. I am looking forward to your impressions as this seems like a great value.

Regards,

Dennis
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post #56 of 1766
6/3/08 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEL79 View Post

Yes, if you buy it to the US you dont need to pay the EU tax (VAT). However, the shipping with courier will be little more expensive to US. So the total costs will be slightly less than 400$ to US including shipping with current currency rates.

TEL79,

I went to the webstore this morning to purchase the 8033 and discovered that the unit was not in stock. When will the North American model be back in stock?
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post #57 of 1766
6/3/08 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CadoGuy View Post

TEL79,

I went to the webstore this morning to purchase the 8033 and discovered that the unit was not in stock. When will the North American model be back in stock?

It is in stock: http://verkkokauppa.planeetta.net/ep...ucts/8033-0002.
There is also a 8033B model and that is the one that I ordered last night: http://verkkokauppa.planeetta.net/ep...cts/8033B-0001.

Bill
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post #58 of 1766
6/3/08 at 6:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

It is in stock: http://verkkokauppa.planeetta.net/ep...ucts/8033-0002.
There is also a 8033B model and that is the one that I ordered last night: http://verkkokauppa.planeetta.net/ep...cts/8033B-0001.

Bill

I understand that the website indicates under "status" that the 8033-0002 is in stock. But when you actually attempt to purchase the item it tells you that this product is out of stock.

The 8033B is in stock but selling at a higher price. They mention that this product has a better enclosure. I wonder if anything else has changed. Perhaps TEL79 can fill us in on the model change. I will probably follow in your footsteps and purchase the newer model as well.
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post #59 of 1766
6/4/08 at 6:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CadoGuy View Post

I understand that the website indicates under "status" that the 8033-0002 is in stock. But when you actually attempt to purchase the item it tells you that this product is out of stock.

The 8033B is in stock but selling at a higher price. They mention that this product has a better enclosure. I wonder if anything else has changed. Perhaps TEL79 can fill us in on the model change. I will probably follow in your footsteps and purchase the newer model as well.

The webshop program was now updated, and both versions of 8033 should indicate now that they are in stock, as in reality they are. The problem was caused by the quantity of the 8033s euro-plug adaptors. But as said, now it should work and display in-stock status for both versions and with any power plug (US/EU/GB) option.

The new model 8033B has improved and more finished enclosure and it will replace the older version of 8033. There are about dozen of the older 8033 with "proto" enclosures remaining, which are sold in slightly cheaper price. Funcionality for the versions is exactly same.
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post #60 of 1766
6/4/08 at 8:53am
I was informed that my 8033B was going out tommorrow by courier to my address. Lets see how fast I get it.

Bill
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