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The Official AVS 'Mobile DTV' (M-DTV) Topic! - Page 14

post #391 of 505
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

.....What I've wanted since television started was just a TV radio or radio that could tune TV channels.....

Did you have one back in the NTSC days?
post #392 of 505
Then you might as well get a Dyle attachment (plus an antenna) for your smartphone (or wait for a Dyle-equipped handset).
post #393 of 505
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

Mobile? Schmobile!
What I've wanted since television started was just a TV radio or radio that could tune TV channels. ?

I have several of those..little portable AM-FM-TV VHF receivers made by Sangean.. They work(ed) really well back in the analog days.

I would not hold my breath for a DTv audio only receiver..the multiplexed nature of video/audio in the MPEG transport domain makes that cost prohibitive.
post #394 of 505
Tech is going backwards or at least sideways....like the first LED watches, haha. Took two hands to tell what time it was! Now you have to stare at a screen held with both hands just to listen to music,
post #395 of 505
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

Tech is going backwards or at least sideways....like the first LED watches, haha.

I was beginning to think it was just me that thought the proponents of ATSC M/H were shooting themselves in the foot. One group with Dyle encryption and another with a soft launch of receiver dongles that only work when an app is registered and so far most M/H devices are incompatible with either form of conditional access. How is something that has trouble entering the early adoption phase ever going to be mass market?
post #396 of 505
You mean like a monitor without a tuner that would display HDTV?
post #397 of 505
Sadly, I keep wondering is this is going to have roughly the same success as HD Radio (IBOC)!
post #398 of 505
Originally Posted by Mizzou! View Post

You mean like a monitor without a tuner that would display HDTV?

At least those monitors had HDTV capability that analog TVs didn't and the people who purchased one were usually happy to hook up a DVD player. Most viewers would prefer analog mobile TV over nearly three years now of zombie mobile.
post #399 of 505
I just wanted to post a quick not about the RCA Model DMT3BR Mobile DTV Car Tuner. I had wanted to find out more about it and Mobile DTV in my area. I live in Rosemount MN 55068. So, I ordered it through Wal-Mart.com, since they have a reasonable return policy. I ordered this on-line and I received an email stating that it had arrived pretty quickly after placing the order. Earlier today I picked it up and tried it out.

The device itself has four connections: power, antenna, AV out, and infra red remote control extension. The power cord is the typical 12 volt cigarette lighter plug. The antenna is either a very small telescoping one, which I didn't bother using, or a magnetic mount mobile antenna. The AV out is the red, yellow, and white composite cable. The infra-red extension would allow the tuner to be mounted in an out of the way location, but still allow the remote control to be used.

Anyway, I used a Radio Shack 1 amp wall wart that converts 120 volts AV to 12 volts DC and plugged in the power cord to the device. I placed antenna in the best location possible. I then connected this through the composite cable to my Samsung LN-T1953H.

This device is capable of BOTH ATSC AND ATSC M/H. I think some of the information on the web leads some people to believe that this is only an ATSC M/H device. That required two scans. First the regular ATSC and a second one for ATSC M/H. To its credit, I think it scanned in all of the same regular DTV channels that my Zenith DTT901 receives. (The Zenith is connected to an original Channel Master CM4228.) And that was just with a magnetic mount external antenna.

What I found most interesting is I can only receive one Mobile DTV channel and that is KSTP. Listings for my area show KMSP and KARE broadcasting Mobile DTV, but I could not receive it with this device. Now I understand that KARE may be encrypted, but the channel didn't even scan in. KMSP is supposed to be "in the clear", but it also did not scan in.

For those familiar with Mobile DTV, I assume this is a product of the main signal, so is it reasonable to assume that if a receiver that decodes both ATSC and ATSC M/H gets a particular "parent" ATSC channel that it should also get the "child" ATSC-M/H. Unless ATSC-M/H is somehow at a lower power level.

My only other basis for comparison is on the Hauppauge WinTV-Aero-m. When I tried the WinTV-Aero-m, I was also able to get KSTP and a white screen for KARE. Back when I tried the WinTV-Aero-m, KMSP was not believed to be transmitting.

Anyway, although I am glad that I tried the RCA Model DMT3BR Mobile DTV Car Tuner, I will be returning this very soon. I sincerely hope that any future devices made for Mobile DTV are more impressive. While the RCA device is okay, it really doesn't seem all that well made. I think I mainly wanted to see what is currently being broadcast in this format in my area. I have learned that I can wait a while longer and hopefully any devices affiliated with Dyle are more successful.
post #400 of 505
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by Jim1348 View Post

What I found most interesting is I can only receive one Mobile DTV channel and that is KSTP. Listings for my area show KMSP and KARE broadcasting Mobile DTV, but I could not receive it with this device. Now I understand that KARE may be encrypted, but the channel didn't even scan in. KMSP is supposed to be "in the clear", but it also did not scan in.

From my experience in Detroit, M-DTV channels that are encrypted do not show up in channel scans.
post #401 of 505
Depends on what tuner you have. One piece of software I have definitely scans in (with no audio or video) encrypted channels. But I could easily imagine newer tuners not scanning in encrypted channels now that there are actual encrypted channels in the field.

- Trip
post #402 of 505
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Depends on what tuner you have. One piece of software I have definitely scans in (with no audio or video) encrypted channels. But I could easily imagine newer tuners not scanning in encrypted channels now that there are actual encrypted channels in the field.

- Trip

I suspect that is the case then and it does make sense because KSTP comes through and KARE would not show since it is encrypted. The KMSP is a puzzler because I thought there signal is un-encrypted. However, I imagine anybody coming online now is a part of Dyle.

I also noticed that when I enter mine or a nearby ZIP code Dyle lists three channels:

1) FOX (KMSP-9)

2) ION (KPXM-41)

3) NBC (KARE-11)

However, when I go to http://www.mdtvsignalmap.com/ it lists the following:

1) KARE-11

2) KSTP-5

3) WFTC-29

Trip, your list shows:

Minneapolis, Minnesota
KSTP-TV (5-1) 35 1.83 Mbps 04/22/2012
• 05-100 News KSTP-M "Eyewitness News Direct"

KMSP-TV (9-1) 9 1.83 Mbps 04/22/2012
• 09-1 FOX KMSP FOX "Fox 9 KMSP"

KARE (11-1) 11 1.83 Mbps 04/22/2012
• 11-1 NBC KARE Mobile "KARE 11"

WFTC (29-1) 29 *(it has announced it will air Mobile DTV services in the future.)

I guess I am just getting anxious to see any new Mobile DTV devices available. IT has been a long time coming!

Also, is it everybody's understanding that the current standard will require internet connection no less than once a week or did that change?

Are ANY of the ABC or CBS stations participating or are they all sitting this one out?
post #403 of 505
Originally Posted by Jim1348 View Post

Are ANY of the ABC or CBS stations participating or are they all sitting this one out?

ABC and CBS don't belong to the Mobile Content Venture but FOX, ION, NBC and another nine station groups do. Some of them probably have ABC or CBS affiliates in some of the cities where there are MCV (Dyle encrypted) stations.
post #404 of 505
KMSP may have added encryption. WAGA in Atlanta signed on without encryption but is now encrypted.

- Trip
post #405 of 505
Let's see--I have to switch carriers, buy a new phone, and pay for a data plan I don't want. Just to get mobile TV. I don't call that free.

Good luck with that.
post #406 of 505
I guess I didn't realize that. What carrier would you have to switch to?
post #407 of 505
Last I heard, it was T-mobile. But the killer is the return path for this to work. You have to provide that. Sure, there can be stand alone receivers with WiFi, But unless you are lucky to live near a free hot spot, out of luck.

This may seem like I'm being a grinch, but with more TV's having WiFi or a LAN connection, don't think that they won't try this with standard OTA at some point.

They could make a deal with someone to provide that return path. It would be like sending a text massage a day, no big deal. But why? most will pay for it themselves. You pay for the service, and they use it for free.
post #408 of 505
I seem to recall reading a while back that portable stand alone Mobile DTVs would have to be able to "contact the mother ship" at least once every two weeks. I don't know if that is, in fact, the requirements adopted or is something else was selected.
post #409 of 505
Most ratings data is collected within 24 hours so they might not go for a two week lag time. If all they wanted was to know if the program was watched and for how long, I'd be OK with that. Then you could buy a device, have it do a scan and link up with whatever does the authorization, and that would be it. No registration required. A good compromise.
But they most likely want all info just short of a genetic sample.
post #410 of 505
I am starting to lose interest in Mobile DTV. Back in the NTSC days I had a few ways to hear TV audio while away from a traditional set:

-AutoTalk Converter In Vehicles

-CCrane Portable Radio

-Amateur Radio Tuning In IFB

Since going to ATSC, the AutoTalk Converter and CCrane are no longer able to decode the ATSC signal. The IFB route is fine if I have a ham radio with me and if the station is using IFB.

Now I have put together some ATSC-NTSC converter boxes and connected the audio out into the intercom system at home and into an HD radio out in the barn. That works great in those locations, but is not very portable.

I do have DISH Network and I bought a Sling Adapter. The biggest issue with that is it uses more than my 2GB on my data plan each month if I use it very much.

So, a few days ago I bought a regular Slingbox Solo and I did not connect the video cable. Now I can listen to TV audio and, hopefully, not go through my data plan before the end of the billing cycle.

So at this point I will have to take a very hard look if I even want or need true Mobile DTV. As much as I was looking forward to the RCA MIT700, if they restrict the Android browser too much, it might just sour me on buying it!
post #411 of 505
I just finished hooking up a new Hauppauge Aero-m tuner stick to my laptop. I didn't try its built-in stick antenna. I used a UHF loop / rabbit ear antenna inside my highrise apartment in near-north Chicago. It found lots of stations, but NOT WTTW PBS -- the primary station I want to record. I switched to my Silver Sensor antenna and got a good signal. As the Aero-m has the "latest and greatest tuner" chip, I was rather disappointed.

I tried ATSC mobile. It only found one channel (WYCC) out of four that I understand are supposed to be broadcasting here. Picture quality was poor, as expected. But I bought the Aero-m for HD recording, not for mobile use.
post #412 of 505
While this isn't exactly M-DTV, it is still somewhat interesting, nevertheless:



NEW YORK (AP) — A startup company can continue to send live TV programming to iPhones and other mobile devices in the city despite objections from major broadcasters that say expansion can threaten the free broadcasting of events such as the Super Bowl, a judge ruled Wednesday.

U.S. District Judge Alison Nathan said she understood how the service provided by the company, Aereo, may be unfair to broadcasters. But she said the law left her no choice but to reject a request by News Corp.'s Fox and other broadcasters to pull the plug on the company.

Aereo lets customers capture over-the-air broadcasts for viewing on iPhones, iPads and computers for $12 a month. A copyright infringement lawsuit was filed by Fox, ABC, CBS, NBC and others, accusing Aereo of copying and retransmitting their programming over the Internet unlawfully.

Aereo argued that it was providing a legal, alternate platform for free TV broadcasts and was merely letting users rent a remotely located antenna to access content they could receive for free by installing the same equipment at home. Its chief executive told the judge at a hearing that extended litigation would be "the end of the company."

Nathan's ruling was on a request for a preliminary injunction. Generally, more evidence is presented before a judge makes a final ruling that can then be appealed, but Nathan said the broadcasters have indicated they are likely to appeal immediately. Lawyers on both sides did not immediately respond to messages for comment Wednesday.

The judge said the broadcasters are likely to suffer irreparable harm as a result of her ruling, including to their ability to negotiate with advertisers once viewers are siphoned from traditional distribution avenues, making it seem that fewer people are watching programs than actually are. She said it also will affect their retransmission agreements because companies will demand concessions from broadcasters to make up for the apparent loss in viewership. These deals, she said, amount to billions of dollars a year for broadcasters.

The judge said Aereo's service has only just begun to operate on any significant scale and the company has conceded that it intends to expand. She noted that the service had grown from 100 users to 3,500 users this year before a hearing she conducted several weeks ago and that Aereo had conducted surveys suggesting its services could prompt a substantial portion of its subscribers to cancel their cable TV subscriptions.

She added that broadcasters' "showing of imminent irreparable harm is substantial, but not overwhelming."

In siding with Aereo, the judge said the case probably would have been decided in favor of the broadcasters were it not for a ruling by the U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in Manhattan in a case challenging Cablevision's Remote Storage DVR system. Cablevision was found not to violate copyrights in the case.

The judge noted that Aereo's lawyers had argued that, like Cablevision, it effectively rents to its users remote equipment comparable to what they could install at home. The broadcasters had argued that the judge should conclude Aereo engages in a public performance by transmitting the programming.

The judge said arguments by broadcasters in the Aereo case were "profoundly similar to those already considered and rejected" by the appeals court.

"This court does not believe it would be appropriate to blaze a trail that runs opposed to the direction dictated by Cablevision," she wrote.
post #413 of 505
Found this thread after seeing the MetroPCS phone mentioned on phandroid (an Android blog/news site), so I dusted off my DVICO Fusion 5 USB and installed Decontv Mobile DTV Viewer. I'm in the Portland OR market, and there were 3 stations that had ATSC M/H streams, 2 encrypted! The encrypted ones were Fox and NBC stations (expected I guess..). The ABC station was the lone viewable one, which mirrored their regular HDTV stream with a slight delay. I have negative feelings about the encryption, even though it may be free to register, just seems too "big brother" for OTA. The FCC dropped the ball on this one, again. Maybe this will give upstart stations an edge, watch at home or on the road, no BS required smile.gif
post #414 of 505

The Dyle service from Metro PCS is a free way to watch TV on mobile phones, but reception isn't perfect.

Dyle is the answer for people who can't live without their favorite daytime talk shows and soap operas. Essentially a mobile TV service that picks up special broadcasts of local TV channels, Dyle allows you to get programming anywhere you have your handset or smartphone. In the works for years, it's finally launched on the Samsung Galaxy S Lightray 4G, which MetroPCS began selling today.

The service is run by a consortium of broadcasters around the country, jointly known as Mobile Content Venture. Following the Lightray are a few other Dyle products, including dongles that can connect to an iPad or iPhone, turning it into a portable TV. Don't get your hopes up, though; the Lightray isn't a handset from some far-flung future. Sadly, it's a perfectly generic smartphone, aside from a retractable antenna that needs to be extended in order to grab the Dyle broadcast signal.
Dyle mobile TV debuts on Galaxy S Lightray 4G (pictures)

There are definitely a few things to like about Dyle. First, the service is free once you buy the phone. It also works pretty well, picking up four local channels in the New York area. Coverage and the number of channels available will vary from market to market, though, and not every city will get the service initially. That said, because it runs off of a separate broadcast network, it doesn't take a bite out of your cellular data allowance, which is great if you're worried about MetroPCS throttling your connection at the end of the month.

Dyle, in some ways, competes with Aereo, which offers streaming over-the-air TV service, and on August 2 introduced a free trial option. But Dyle is a bit more bare-bones, offering just the live channels with no option to save or record programs for later viewing. While the service is free with a standard phone plan, the price of entry is fairly high. The phone, which launched today, costs $459, or $80 more than the next most expensive phone in MetroPCS' lineup. Of course that price doesn't include an onerous two- or even one-year service contract.

My take
I only had a chance to use the Dyle application around the office, but I was pleased with what I got. Of course, I went into this with fairly low expectations. The service was able to locate four channels: NBC, Fox, the children's channel Qubo, and Telemundo. The problem is it only ever picked up three channels at once (and really just two most of the time). The upside was NBC was usually one of them, allowing me to catch a few swimming events live while at work.

The app comes with a handy guide that tells you what programs are coming up. By clicking on a future show, you also get a synopsis and option to set a reminder to watch later. The video stream was fairly smooth as well, although it did stutter a bit when I moved my test phone around. Generally, though, when it worked, it worked well.

Unfortunately, Dyle didn't always function flawlessly. I can probably chalk it up to thick walls in my office, which make cellphone calls a herculean challenge, but with that factored in coverage was still inconsistent. Even when the phone's spotty coverage wasn't an issue, Dyle winked out, and vice versa. I also wasn't a big fan of the retractable antenna, which artificially ages the phone and will more than likely open you up to ridicule.

Dyle has another big drawback in my view. With only three channels, I'm not sure if the service is really worth it. I look forward to testing it outside, however, to see the extent of the coverage and whether I'll be able to pick up more channels. And for big events like the Olympics, or even at tailgating parties before major games, this service could come in handy.

So-so specs
As I previously mentioned, the phone itself doesn't offer top-of-the-line specs, although they are right in line with the better phones offered by prepaid wireless carriers. If it looks familiar to you, that's because it's identical to the Galaxy S Aviator at U.S. Cellular, minus the antenna.

The Lightray comes with an 8-megapixel LED flash shooter on the back, and a 1.3-megapixel front-facing camera for photos and videos. The phone is powered by a 1GHz processor, and runs on Android 2.3, aka Gingerbread. Dyle's TV service is decently displayed on the phone's 4.3-inch Super AMOLED touch screen. Underneath the screen are four physical buttons, for menu, home, back, and search. The phone comes with a 16GB microSD card, with 1.38GB of internal memory available.

The Samsung Galaxy S Lightray 4G also has an HDMI-out connection, although it disappointingly doesn't work with Dyle, so outputting TV signals to HDTVs is out of the question. The Lightray is also the first MetroPCS phone to offer a mobile hot-spot feature, allowing other Wi-Fi devices to run off of its cellular connection. To be clear, while MetroPCS technically uses 4G LTE in its network, the data speeds are more like 3G.

Certainly the Dyle service is still in its infancy, so I look forward to seeing how it progresses.
post #415 of 505
So, is mobile DTV dead?
post #416 of 505
It does seem that way.

I wonder if Mobile DTV would have been further along if ATSC had not been chosen.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8VSB#8VSB_vs_COFDM and


Personally, I have little use for mobile DTV, and will definitely not appreciate the data rates of existing ATSC DTV channels being reduced to make room for mobile channel(s).
post #417 of 505
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

So, is mobile DTV dead?

Well.. I got the call on the way home yesterday from FOX saying that NO NFL games were to be braodcast on MH due to copyright issues..so I pulled the plug on the simulcast..Nevermind that our MH has encryption in place and there are no receivers here in town that can decode it...rolleyes.gif
post #418 of 505
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

.....is mobile DTV dead?.....

Sadly. it just may be. As I have posted in the past, I do like to follow certain things when I am out and about. I am currently using a Garminfone, which is an Android device, and I have both a Sling Adapter and a Slingbox PRO-HD. While it would be nice to follow a local broadcast without ANY data, I just don't see that happening any time soon.

With the regular football season here, I suspect that ther are still some people that would like to be at a football game AND have a portable TV in hand watching. (Although in that case, probably a portable with regular ATSC would work.) At this point, I would even consider getting a small portable TV that does regular ATSC even if it won't do ATSC-M/H. They are around, but I haven't found any good reviews yet that compare them to one another.
post #419 of 505
For your reading pleasure....

OFDM: Getting Down to Basics (Part One)


After the ordeal of the conversion from analog to digital, it's hard to see how such a fundamental shift might occur. Perhaps if patching up ATSC for mobile and 3D and (?) gets too messy, and those new features are very much desired, a fresh (old) approach might be feasible.
post #420 of 505
Broadcasters Prepare for Mobile DTV Launch
Strategy shifts from smartphones to dongles

In my opinion, $100 dongles and free service "through the end of 2012" is not a prescription for great success.
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