2008 Samsung HL61A750 LED DLP owners thread and FAQ - Page 447

I like others here have been waiting to get some sort of conformation as to whether our 3D ready Samsung DLP's will be compatible with the new 3D Blu-ray approach. The answer seems to have been going back and forth over the last few months, but now with the conformation that 1.3 HDMI cables can support 3D (in 1080i) its gives me a bit of optimism. Some techno- genius out there please make my day. = : )

It's already been confirmed. Sigma Designs already has a chip that can output to any of the 3D methods, including the checkerboard method.

1080i????

Thanx , Taz291819 you've just made my new year, although my wife will most likely not agree. As to Arronwt's question about 1080i.here's what I've just recently read.



HDMI 1.3 Will Support 3D After All
Mon Jan 04, 2010 at 10:00 AM ET

Fans of 3D movies can rest easy. You probably won't need to upgrade your Blu-ray player, and you almost certainly won't need to pick up new cables.
Remember back when the 3D specification for Blu-ray was announced and somehow the Playstation 3 made the list of compatible devices? It was said that a firmware update would make the popular Blu-ray playing game console compatible, and that's true. It's not just the PS3 though, that update will also apply to any BD-Live capable Blu-ray player.
In fact, any device that has a method for updating the firmware can be kicked up to support the new format. Cable set-top boxes and satellite receivers included.
Like most things though, the 3D update for already existing HDMI 1.3 products comes with a catch, and it's a catch in the form of reduced video quality. While HDMI 1.4 cables and devices will be capable of shooting out 3D pictures in full 1080p, HDMI 1.3 just can't handle it.
The problem is that for a 3D picture, two images have to be shown nearly simultaneously. Since HDMI 1.3 can't handle two 1080p pictures at that speed, you'll get two 1080i pictures. It's not a huge downgrade when all is said and done. The real clincher comes with TV signals.
Since cable boxes normally show a 1080i image, they'll be stepped down to 540i to handle 3D. With HDMI 1.3 cable boxes, you'll have the choice between HD and 3D, but not both.

These displays (as well as HDMI 1.3) are fully capable of 1080p 3D via BD.

I bought my HL67A750 from Amazon January 16th of last year, so it's been almost a year since my purchase. I registered with Samsung, so I was supposed to have an extra 90 days on my warranty. However, I don't see that mentioned anywhere on my "My Samsung" page. I was wondering if anyone has gotten a Mack warranty after 11 months (technicially more than 90 days from the end of my manufacturers warranty), and if it is definitely something I should get. I was figuring if it dies, it would give me an excuse to get a new TV, but it's been a year and I still like my TV as much as I did the day I bought it. Can I still get a warranty? Is it even worth the money? What is the defect rate on these? I am thinking after 4 years, it has to be close to 100%.

Cool, absolutely no signal downgrade with 1.3 HDMI!! Then from what I understand, the only downgrade in resolution will come when the CEM of the future 3D BD players converts its signal from the new standard Frame Sequential method to our Samsung DLP Checkerboard method. It's just so early in the game and there seems to so much (miss) information out there.

Just because you keep saying it over and over doesn't make it true...

01/04/10 High Def Digest Article

The problem lies in the article source.

Since you brought it up, where do you get your information from?

Are you an industry insider? I haven't seen post fom you with any kind of link to credible information.

I'm all for getting to the bottome of how 3D will work with legacy gear, but since I don't know you or your background I can't give your posts much validity just becuase you post it here....

And please, no offense intended.... But from everything I've read about true 1080p 3D, HDMI 1.3 didn't spec the required bandwidth to pass two independent 1080p streams, nor is 1.3a speced to do so, hence the 3D provisions included with HDMI 1.4.

The article does word it incorrectly. It's not 1080i, but it's sorta like 1080i, if you want to call 1080i 540p. The checkerboard method does reduce horizontal resolution in half, but it's doing it at 60 times a second for each eye. So the question remains, just like in the 720p vs. 1080i wars, will the human eye be able to tell the difference?

We'll find out soon enough, but I have a feeling it's not a big deal.

And regarding the the HDMI spec, the proof is in the pudding. Both the Sammy and Mits 3D-Ready displays only allow 60Hz inputs via HDMI, they don't allow 120Hz inputs.

I think we really need to see some implementations before too many get up in arms about what will or will not work.

I continue to see misinformation about HD in general... so I can only imagine how much 3D misinformation we are seeing.

I don't really know whether my great HL61A750 will actually handle 3D, but I'm not particularly concerned because I believe it will be a few years before 3D is truly ready for "prime time." When that happens, I'll probably be in the market for a shiny new 3D-ready HDTV system anyway, and most likely using HDMI 1.8 cables or all running over some version of Wi-Fi.

I actually just got off the phone with Mack Warranty about this and they told me for the 5 yr ext. warranty you must have bought it through them within 30 days of purchase of tv. For the 3 yr ext warranty you have to buy it within 90 days of original warranty ending and they said the extended 3 month warranty from Samsung when you register counts. Sooo you have to get movin if you want the 3 yr ext. warranty. Unfortunately I missed out by a few days so I'm out of luck...

Damn, I got like 2 months left after the Samsung extension (w/registering). I need to hop to, I thought I missed my chance.

That conflicts with the Mack 5 yr warranty FAQ on the Texas Tapeworks site http://tapeworkstexas.com/5_year_tv_only_.html. I'm not sure who's right, but I'm hoping TTW as I got my 5 year warranty more than 30 days from purchase.

hey Lee, my used your service menu settings, picture looks much better but i seem to have a bit too much red, at least for my eyes. what settings should i adjust to test?

thanks.

Here's a good video on 3D, hdmi, and the PS3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLeOx...ayer_embedded#

It doesn't fully confirm that the PS3's 3D update will work with these DLP's, but I think it's looking good.

So I'm still a bit confused but this is what I've gathered so far. The PS3 can already do 3D now with games like Avatar (and not much else) which support checkerboard 3D in the game itself over HDMI 1.3. Since it's capable of this, we're assuming here that the PS3's 3D video settings on the PS3 Xross Media Bar menu will also support this checkerboard format as an option for Blu-Ray3D. We've already seen that the PS3 is capable of displaying checkerboard 3D for our DLPs over HDMI 1.3 so our big assumption here is that our checkerboard format will be supported in Sony's own PS3 interface firmware update, which it might not be. The post before me tihu4 posted a video in which the HDMI representative said that the PS3 firmware update would likely find a way to support a HDMI 1.4 compressed 3D video signal, even though the PS3's hardware itself cant be upgraded to the new higher bandwidth of the HDMI 1.4 spec. If that's the case, I'm guessing we wouldnt be able to take that HDMI 1.4 signal input into our TV. It wouldnt work unless we had an adaptor which could convert this new HDMI 1.4 type of video signal into the old checkerboard image format supported by our TV, which brings me to the next thing that I've come across.

Mitsubishi announced a 3D adaptor today for their older DLP and 3D capable Laser projection TVs called "3DC-1000" that will presumably take a HDMI 1.4 3D signal input and convert it into the checkerboard format right in the adaptor itself. Here's a link to an article on Engadget about the adaptor:
Mitsubishi's projection HDTVs get an adapter to deal with Blu-ray 3D

We can't assume that this adaptor will work with our DLP TV. It might plug into a data port on their TV and be a part of a firmware update that works with their tv's built in interface.

The real question is, will Samsung follow suit and release their own adaptor for our DLPs?

All of that is exactly what I've gotten out of the information we have so far.

I'm pretty sure all of Samsung's 3D-ready TV's (I'm not sure about the plasmas) have been discontinued, so I think the likelihood of them making an adapter for us is low.

Hopefully the PS3 and other Blu Ray players support checkerboard or at least the Mitsubishi adapter connects only to hdmi so we can use it. At any rate, I'm sure there would be a way to output Blu Rays in checkerboard from a PC. All of the PC 3D gaming drivers such as nvidia, IZ3D, and Tridef support checkerboard output.

So basically our TV is capable of 3D over HDMI 1.3 when the actual video outputting device has, within itself, an option to convert the 3D signal into a checkerboard image taking up 1920 by 1080 pixels of resolution of a 60hz video. Half of the pixels in that 1920x1080 image being one eye's image and half the other in a checkerboard sort of interlacing. Then it outputs onto the HDMI cable a regular old 60hz HD video image that all 1080p TVs support. Our TV is just capable of looking at that checkerboard image and when we push the 3D button in our TV menu, the TV actively begins to overlay a black/blank screen door on the checkerboard, blocking out one side of the checkerboard image and then the other, back and forth at 120hz. The signal itself is a 60hz video of a checkerboard image which displays both images on the checkerboard at all times. This means that the video signal itself doesn't flicker back and forth at 120hz, it's just one solid 60hz video sending both sides of the image at all times. It's the TV itself that blocks out half of the checkerboard on that image at a 120hz rate and then syncs it up with shutter-glasses so each eye only sees half of the checkerboard at a time. This means we're not getting true 1080p per eye with our TV, BUT we are still getting the 60hz rate per eye because our TV's screening out of either side of the checkerboard image is double the speed at which it is being inputted into the tv.

When the TV is displaying the half of the checkerboard for the right eye, the right eye on the shutter-glasses becomes clear, and then it switches the left eyeglass clear as the tv blocks the right eye side of the checkerboard image on the TV and blocks the right eye at the same time. It goes back and forth at 120hz. I used to wonder how our TV supports 120hz if there's no such thing as a 120hz HDTV broadcast signal or 120hz HDMI input on a HDTV and I think that's it. It's the TV's blocking either side of the checkerboard at a 120hz rate. (Sorry for that detour into how our TV works, or at least my take on it which could be completely wrong and is all based on what I've come to understand)

HDMI 1.4 3D signal is a 120hz rate video alternating between the left and right frames sequentially. This means that the video signal itself does the flicking back and forth between left and right eye images. This makes our TV completely incapable of displaying this new type of 3D video as our TV and all other non-3D HDTVs only have a 60hz capable video input. The likelyhood that future devices would support checkerboard image via 60hz video is extremely low given that 3DTVs with this format arent even on the market anymore and aren't likely to return due to their lack of 1080p per eye.

To support our TV, the Blu-Ray3D player, or whatever type of device it is, would need to fidget with the signal to convert it on the device into a checkerboard single video channel. It's more likely that future 3D devices will be designed to just output the 120hz frame sequential video. In the case of the PS3 displaying 3D even though it wont have the HDMI output bandwidth of a true HDMI 1.4 device, like the rep said in the previously mentioned video, the PS3 will find a way to output a compressed version of the two distinct video channel data format that the HDMI 1.4 spec supports. This doesnt mean that they'll also go above and beyond that to enable the PS3 to convert those two channels into a checkerboard image to be output through a standard old video signal (which is what our TVs support).

That's why Mitsubishi is releasing the adaptor. This is why Samsung needs to release an adaptor.

(As always, correct me if I'm wrong. This is just what I've come to understand of it so far)

If nothing else we can probably use the Mitsu adapter on our Samsungs, since it probably just accepts new format 3D and munges it into TI 3D DLP style checkerboard and outputs via HDMI again. A black box with HDMI in, HDMI out, and power.

Too bad in any case we'll still need to manually toggle our TVs into 3D Mode. If it were automatic that'd be nice.

It would be nice if the adaptor worked with the TV's data port and a new firmware update that recognized when a 120hz signal was being converted into a checkerboard and automatically enabled 3D mode. That would be really nice, but at this point I'm just hoping that something will work.

I wouldn't count on it. There are a lot of differences in 3D Vision support for Mits vs. Samsung. We are like orphans compared to Mits support. I wouldn't expect this to be any different since there are a lot of things "behind the scenes" in firmware going on.

Since I dont anticipate a ton of 3D dvds coming out for quite awhile (not counting kiddie movies that dont interest me), I think I will just wait until my present Sammy takes its final dump, then when its time to get new equipment, just get a whole new 3D setup.

That's all it is, or has to be anyway. If Mits' decides to screw with it so it only works with their displays (which they'd sell more if it worked with Sammys also), we still have three other options:

1. By a 3D BD player that will output the checkerboard method. Sigma Designs already has a chip that can output to any 3D method. It would make sense to 3D BD manufacturers to use this chip, it would make their players more compatible.

2. If all else fails, RealD will come to the rescue. They have their own SbS-to-checkerboard converter, which works with Mits and our Sammys:

http://www.reald.com/Content/POD-Sid...Interlace.aspx

3. Use a HTPC. Stereoscopic Player can already convert to any 3D method on the fly. It works great. The 4 major BD software players have already said they'll incorporate 3D into their software.

I got my 5-year warranty from them 90 days before the expiration of my original 12-months Samsung warranty. In other words, I got it after 9 months of purchase; just to be safe.

Great video!

While I am excited about the possibility of 3d content with my current hardware, I find all the buzz interesting given the time many of us have spent "perfecting" our picture quality. Isn't it inherent in the 3d technology that the picture quality will be less than a 2d HD picture? Admittedly, I have not even viewed content with shutter or polarized glasses (hope to see Avatar in 3d soon), so my assumption may be incorrect.

saw another video of the ps3 3d update making all games old and new 3d and i'm pretty sure they were using shutter glasses so that is good for us. then its just a matter of the checkerboard pattern factor but seems like that will work or have an option to select that type of shutter 3d or like ppl have said diff adapters.

i do know that for the avatar 3d game and this other invinseable tiger 3d game the shutter glasses do work on these sam dlps on both ps3 and 360.

even samsung who up till now was doing shutter 3d on their dlp, plasma and lcd has joined with REalD and said they will make polarized 3d sets that use the circular 3d glasses that look the same as the linear 3d glasses in theatre (but i guess are made slight different)

that seems to be the future for the 3d tvs the polarized that use the circular polarized glasses.

LG already has a 3d version of the 47" 47LH50 lcd but its only in korea. i got excited seeing it on the list of 3d tvs on the invincible tiger video game website and found the tv for only like 1k only to find that they didnt' change the model name at all and just released a 3d version of it in korea. Then there is a JVC 46" but its 9k so thats instant fail. and then supposedly some Hyunday polarized 3d monitors/tvs that even have polarized 3d in the name but i couldnt' fidn anywerhe on the net to buy it and the largest is also only 46"

reviews of the jvc said it was the best 3d they reviewed and etter then the Hyundai.


meanwhile Vizo announces this 72" 480 hz (240hz ea eye) 3d flat lcd with other good features as well for $3500 which has me pretty excited and says it uses the shutter 3d glasses and might come with a pair.
http://hdtv.biz-news.com/news/tags/en_US/3D

so I think shutter 3d is going to be aroudn for home use also but id think the circular polarized is better to use basic cheaper glasses like the linear polarized in theatre instead of shutter glasses which are more expensive and need batteries and have moving parts i guess.

in the meantime it seems like shutter will be compatiable and supported for awhile and even some new tvs still using it so i'm going to get a pair for my HL67A750 mostly just for the avatar vid game for 360 for now.

been hard to find the seemingly sold out/discontined samsung pair but i did find an open box pair for like $135
and i found the Xpand X102 pair which doesn't need the emitter for $150 where as the x101 that needs emitter you have to get the bundle with 2 paris and emitter and its like $600-750 so i might do those for $150 as they seem to be one of the best brands right now. i just dont like the red color.

RealD makes both shutter and polarized glasses, but their shutters aren't cheap. You can get cheaper shutter glasses for ~ $45.

The Avatar game has the 3D outputs built in, you can select pretty much any 3D method out there, including checkerboard.

From what I've researched, shutter glasses give zero ghosting, while polarized gives some.