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The Official Pioneer 9G non-Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 364

post #10891 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartleby79 View Post

I have had the 6020-FD since June and love it like a child. However, I plan to move locally in the near future (10 miles or so) and am wondering how do I go about transporting my TV? I've thrown out all the original boxes, and I'm guessing it's not exactly wise to just pull the TV out of my apartment and throw it in the back of a truck.

Any suggestions, folks? I don't want my baby to get hurt....

Also, looking in the future, if one is moving long distances, what's the best way to transport the TV? Thanks.

Frankly, you can just put it in the back of a truck. That's how 99.9% of them are delivered to your house anyway. They just happen to be in a box. OBVIOUSLY you don't want the TV to tip over so you have to secure it carefully so it can't tip. I'd wrap it in one of those Velux blankets (no lint, nothing but soft fibers, these are very light-weight blankets, 100% synthetic I'm sure. I wouldn't trust a moving company to box it safely - they are pretty clueless when it comes to protecting high-tech stuff.

You should try to find some firm foam blocks large enough to raise the TV so the stand is not bearing all the weight. Wrap the Velux blanket around those corners of the TV so the bezel doesn't rub on the foam. The foam should be wide enough to help you form an anti-tilt base. Use straps around the upper part of the TV to prevent tilting... run some over the top and tie down to the floor of the truck.

Make sure the Velux blanket stays between the straps and the TV while you are transporting it. Secure it fore-aft with more straps so braking or acceleration don't allow the TV to slide in the truck.

Carry the TV with nothing else in the truck - it's only 10 miles you said - piece of cake. You do NOT want to chance having something else bump the TV while it is being moved.

Just in case it isn't obvious... the TV has to stay vertical while it is being moved.
post #10892 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent_C View Post

Let's also consider that there isn't universal agreement that the D65 color standard actually looks like real life. Which is perhaps why so many lay people find a slightly cooler (D75?) picture more accurate'.

I don't buy the typical explanation for this either; that people are conditioned' to prefer a bluer picture because of the way TV's are displayed in showrooms. The explanation AFAIC is much simpler; people compare what they see on their flat screen to what it looks like in the real world, and adjust their sets accordingly. It really is that simple.

A_C (Flame Shields Up!)

1) D65 is the best possible compromise. Dusk and dawn are warmer. Overcast skies are blue-er. Interiors are warmer if lit by incandescent, or greener if lit by fluorescents. 10am is a different temp than noon or 4pm.

2) D65 works because it is "in the middle" of what we experience every day. If you use the D65 standard, when you shoot something at dawn or dusk, it will look warmer, if you shoot interiors they will look warmer or greener depending on the lighting used, 10am will look "right" and 4pm will also look "right" - if what is shot is playedback on a display calibrated to that standard also. Nobody is shooting at 7500K or 5500K (though the printing and publishing market uses 5500K as their reference white because most everything they do is seen mostly indoors.

3) If the program or movie was "shot" using the D65 standard (or something somewhat close to it), you have no prayer of seeing it as the director/director of photography/cinematographer intended if you aren't also calibrated for D65. No adjustment on the TV will every un-do the mess caused by shooting and viewing at different settings.

4) Human vision, good as it is, has significant problems... put a "real" white next to a blue-ish white and your vision will assign the blue-ish white to be the "real" whilte and the ACTUAL white next to it will look pink-ish or yellow-ish or orange-ish. You cannot stop this and it is EASY to demonstrate with a meter - and it happens with a fair bit of regularity when you are calibrating TVs. There are lots of examples of optical illusions online that prove your eyes are easily fooled.

5) If you want the most accurate images you can get from your display... the AV-SCIENCE (aka AVS) Forums are a great place for that exploration. If you are only interested in "what you like"... there are plenty of other forums for you and most of the threads here really won't be much interested in "what you like" since the majority of AVS Forum members are here to find out what makes an accurate image and how to get that on their display at home. These aren't the "What You Like" Forums... they are the AVSCIENCE Forums and there are all sorts of reasons the SCIENCE of video imaging works.

That said... I've seen a fair number of cases where people say "I really don't like Movie mode and nobody is ever going to convince me it is better than Standard or Optimum. So when you calibrate my X020 (or X010), you can try Movie mode first, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to want to end up calibrating Standard mode." After calibration there's an epiphany of EPIC proportions. Mostly along the lines of "You made me a believer in Movie mode. This is AWESOME and I could NOT be happier with Movie mode. I was SO wrong about Standard and Optimum." In all of my experience with these panels, NOBODY has preferred Standard or Optimum to Movie mode after calibration. Not ONCE. Before calibration, I'd say my customers have been split about 50-50 between those "into" Movie mode and those who would swear that Standard or Optimum was the only way to go.

Nobody calibrates to (say) 7500K to display (say) 6500K content... it just makes no sense. If you are going to run a display at 7500K, you'd better figure out a source for 7500K movies for your disc player(s) and TV channels because nothing is going to be close to right if all the sources were calibrated to 6500K.
post #10893 of 14941
Hello all

This is my first post

I got a 5020 this Monday (YAY!) and after an initial scare due to me not knowing about that secret master switch (...), I have been running D-NICE thumbdrive break in process. Since I started Monday mid day and ran it non stop since, I will reach 150h around Sunday evening. The trick is that then I will be out on business from Monday to Friday.
So my question is, since I already will have 150h of break in on my set, should I leave me set off while I am gone, or is there any advantage in running the break in for four more days?

Thanks guys!
P^
post #10894 of 14941
Well said. Can't agree more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

1) D65 is the best possible compromise. Dusk and dawn are warmer. Overcast skies are blue-er. Interiors are warmer if lit by incandescent, or greener if lit by fluorescents. 10am is a different temp than noon or 4pm.

2) D65 works because it is "in the middle" of what we experience every day. If you use the D65 standard, when you shoot something at dawn or dusk, it will look warmer, if you shoot interiors they will look warmer or greener depending on the lighting used, 10am will look "right" and 4pm will also look "right" - if what is shot is playedback on a display calibrated to that standard also. Nobody is shooting at 7500K or 5500K (though the printing and publishing market uses 5500K as their reference white because most everything they do is seen mostly indoors.

3) If the program or movie was "shot" using the D65 standard (or something somewhat close to it), you have no prayer of seeing it as the director/director of photography/cinematographer intended if you aren't also calibrated for D65. No adjustment on the TV will every un-do the mess caused by shooting and viewing at different settings.

4) Human vision, good as it is, has significant problems... put a "real" white next to a blue-ish white and your vision will assign the blue-ish white to be the "real" whilte and the ACTUAL white next to it will look pink-ish or yellow-ish or orange-ish. You cannot stop this and it is EASY to demonstrate with a meter - and it happens with a fair bit of regularity when you are calibrating TVs. There are lots of examples of optical illusions online that prove your eyes are easily fooled.

5) If you want the most accurate images you can get from your display... the AV-SCIENCE (aka AVS) Forums are a great place for that exploration. If you are only interested in "what you like"... there are plenty of other forums for you and most of the threads here really won't be much interested in "what you like" since the majority of AVS Forum members are here to find out what makes an accurate image and how to get that on their display at home. These aren't the "What You Like" Forums... they are the AVSCIENCE Forums and there are all sorts of reasons the SCIENCE of video imaging works.

That said... I've seen a fair number of cases where people say "I really don't like Movie mode and nobody is ever going to convince me it is better than Standard or Optimum. So when you calibrate my X020 (or X010), you can try Movie mode first, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to want to end up calibrating Standard mode." After calibration there's an epiphany of EPIC proportions. Mostly along the lines of "You made me a believer in Movie mode. This is AWESOME and I could NOT be happier with Movie mode. I was SO wrong about Standard and Optimum." In all of my experience with these panels, NOBODY has preferred Standard or Optimum to Movie mode after calibration. Not ONCE. Before calibration, I'd say my customers have been split about 50-50 between those "into" Movie mode and those who would swear that Standard or Optimum was the only way to go.

Nobody calibrates to (say) 7500K to display (say) 6500K content... it just makes no sense. If you are going to run a display at 7500K, you'd better figure out a source for 7500K movies for your disc player(s) and TV channels because nothing is going to be close to right if all the sources were calibrated to 6500K.
post #10895 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by buylongterm View Post

Now how can I be wrong if I enjoy watching my TV the way I like to? Now, I'd be wrong if I said standard mode is more accurate than movie mode. Which I obviously did not say. You go ahead and watch your TV the way you want, and I will obviously do the same.

Correction, I watch my TV the way it's accurate you watch it the way you want.

Quoted for Truth and pertinence to the discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

5) If you want the most accurate images you can get from your display... the AV-SCIENCE (aka AVS) Forums are a great place for that exploration. If you are only interested in "what you like"... there are plenty of other forums for you and most of the threads here really won't be much interested in "what you like" since the majority of AVS Forum members are here to find out what makes an accurate image and how to get that on their display at home. These aren't the "What You Like" Forums... they are the AVSCIENCE Forums and there are all sorts of reasons the SCIENCE of video imaging works.
post #10896 of 14941
Patrick, is your panel calibrated? If not, then you also are not watching an accurate mode! Until I get my panel professionally calibrated, I will continue with the two mode viewing process, accepting that both are "off".
post #10897 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

1) D65 is the best possible compromise. Dusk and dawn are warmer. Overcast skies are blue-er. Interiors are warmer if lit by incandescent, or greener if lit by fluorescents. 10am is a different temp than noon or 4pm.

2) D65 works because it is "in the middle" of what we experience every day. If you use the D65 standard, when you shoot something at dawn or dusk, it will look warmer, if you shoot interiors they will look warmer or greener depending on the lighting used, 10am will look "right" and 4pm will also look "right" - if what is shot is playedback on a display calibrated to that standard also. Nobody is shooting at 7500K or 5500K (though the printing and publishing market uses 5500K as their reference white because most everything they do is seen mostly indoors.

3) If the program or movie was "shot" using the D65 standard (or something somewhat close to it), you have no prayer of seeing it as the director/director of photography/cinematographer intended if you aren't also calibrated for D65. No adjustment on the TV will every un-do the mess caused by shooting and viewing at different settings.

4) Human vision, good as it is, has significant problems... put a "real" white next to a blue-ish white and your vision will assign the blue-ish white to be the "real" whilte and the ACTUAL white next to it will look pink-ish or yellow-ish or orange-ish. You cannot stop this and it is EASY to demonstrate with a meter - and it happens with a fair bit of regularity when you are calibrating TVs. There are lots of examples of optical illusions online that prove your eyes are easily fooled.

5) If you want the most accurate images you can get from your display... the AV-SCIENCE (aka AVS) Forums are a great place for that exploration. If you are only interested in "what you like"... there are plenty of other forums for you and most of the threads here really won't be much interested in "what you like" since the majority of AVS Forum members are here to find out what makes an accurate image and how to get that on their display at home. These aren't the "What You Like" Forums... they are the AVSCIENCE Forums and there are all sorts of reasons the SCIENCE of video imaging works.

That said... I've seen a fair number of cases where people say "I really don't like Movie mode and nobody is ever going to convince me it is better than Standard or Optimum. So when you calibrate my X020 (or X010), you can try Movie mode first, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to want to end up calibrating Standard mode." After calibration there's an epiphany of EPIC proportions. Mostly along the lines of "You made me a believer in Movie mode. This is AWESOME and I could NOT be happier with Movie mode. I was SO wrong about Standard and Optimum." In all of my experience with these panels, NOBODY has preferred Standard or Optimum to Movie mode after calibration. Not ONCE. Before calibration, I'd say my customers have been split about 50-50 between those "into" Movie mode and those who would swear that Standard or Optimum was the only way to go.

Nobody calibrates to (say) 7500K to display (say) 6500K content... it just makes no sense. If you are going to run a display at 7500K, you'd better figure out a source for 7500K movies for your disc player(s) and TV channels because nothing is going to be close to right if all the sources were calibrated to 6500K.

Doug, I have no reason to doubt anything you're saying, and I would certainly not challenge any of your technical assertions. However, my observations of how people, myself included, respond to a calibrated display differ markedly from what you describe. (Are your observations confined to Kuros, or HD sets in general?)

Fact is, a significant number of people, after having their displays ISF calibrated will ultimately not use the recommended settings. Even after living with it for a few days' as is typically recommended. It just doesn't look right to many people. Too dull, with a reddish/yellow cast over everything' is an extremely recurring observation.

I myself have had 3 displays over the past 10 years calibrated by ISF certified individuals, including one charter member of the ISF who you all know very well (not D-Nice). I continued to hold the belief that the previous set was not done properly and I'd finally be satisfied this time - No go. I also, for the record, have very good eyes - 20/20 and did aerial identification for the military briefly.

I'm not sure what to say at this point other than the inherent subjectivity of human vision you rightly point out can logically vitiate any benefits of a strict D65 calibration.

A_C
post #10898 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent_C View Post

Doug, I have no reason to doubt anything you're saying, and I would certainly not challenge any of your technical assertions. However, my observations of how people, myself included, respond to a calibrated display differ markedly from what you describe. (Are your observations confined to Kuros, or HD sets in general?)

Fact is, a significant number of people, after having their displays ISF calibrated will ultimately not use the recommended settings. Even after living with it for a few days' as is typically recommended. It just doesn't look right to many people. Too dull, with a reddish/yellow cast over everything' is an extremely recurring observation.

I myself have had 3 displays over the past 10 years calibrated by ISF certified individuals, including one charter member of the ISF who you all know very well (not D-Nice). I continued to hold the belief that the previous set was not done properly and I'd finally be satisfied this time - No go. I also, for the record, have very good eyes - 20/20 and did aerial identification for the military briefly.

I'm not sure what to say at this point other than the inherent subjectivity of human vision you rightly point out can logically vitiate any benefits of a strict D65 calibration.

A_C

Very well said and I couldn't agree with you more. BRAVO!!!!!
post #10899 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by phatounet View Post

Hello all

This is my first post

I got a 5020 this Monday (YAY!) and after an initial scare due to me not knowing about that secret master switch (...), I have been running D-NICE thumbdrive break in process. Since I started Monday mid day and ran it non stop since, I will reach 150h around Sunday evening. The trick is that then I will be out on business from Monday to Friday.
So my question is, since I already will have 150h of break in on my set, should I leave me set off while I am gone, or is there any advantage in running the break in for four more days?

Thanks guys!
P^


I would never leave it on unattended for a long period. My advice is to leave it turned off.
post #10900 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent_C View Post

Fact is, a significant number of people, after having their displays ISF calibrated will ultimately not use the recommended settings. Even after ‘living with it for a few days’ as is typically recommended. It just doesn’t look right to many people. ‘Too dull, with a reddish/yellow cast over everything’ is an extremely recurring observation.

I've been tracking owner reports about their calibrations for several years. (See link below)

I've not encountered the reaction to calibration that you are suggesting for a "significant number of people". It's clear that you are one case. I'm not sure what 20/20 vision adds to the discussion, but "reddish/yellow cast after calibration" is not a reaction that comes up often enough for me to have noticed.
post #10901 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I've been tracking owner reports about their calibrations for several years. (See link below)

I've not encountered the reaction to calibration that you are suggesting for a "significant number of people". It's clear that you are one case. I'm not sure what 20/20 vision adds to the discussion, but "reddish/yellow cast after calibration" is not a reaction that comes up often enough for me to have noticed.

There's no shortage of people unhappy with their calibrations.

A_C
post #10902 of 14941
I've asked this question before, and received this answer: "Are you calibrating for a darkened room?" "Yes". No matter what the outcome, I would believe that the ambient lighting needs to be considered into the end users tweaks for the picture, and why the Elite's night and day settings are something our panels could really use. I think most folks here have stated a desire for something other than Movie for watching sports during the day, but the level of lighting in a family/living room setting is a factor also.
post #10903 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbrett View Post

Hello, just got a 5020 last night.

Could someone explain how to do the break-in? Or point me to a thread/post that explains it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent_C View Post

The procedure and links to all the needed resources are detailed on the first page of this thread.

A_C

I must be blind because I don't see any explanation about how to use the jpegs. Just don't want to screw up my new tv. Could someone please help.
post #10904 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCinWhitby View Post

I would never leave it on unattended for a long period. My advice is to leave it turned off.

Thanks man, as it turns out, my trip was cancelled and so I will be able to finally enjoy my new baby for the whole week... happy ^^
post #10905 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent_C View Post

There's no shortage of people unhappy with their calibrations.

A_C

I've been to a ton of different stores where they show you 2 TV's. One that wasn't ISF calibrated, and one that was. Every time I see those displays, I cringed because the calibrated TV always looks Dull, brown and flat.
post #10906 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinoyheat View Post

hey everyone!

just got my 5020 delivered buy BB yesterday and i'm currently running the break-in via thumb drive. the thing is, when the slide show cycles to the 3 shades of red, there's a dead pixel around the top middle of the screen. but when it cycles through the green, blue and white/grey colors, that dead pixel isn't there. i'm assuming its having trouble with the reds. what i want to know is if anyone has experienced this with their kuro and overtime, the pixel was able to eventually turn on during the reds? Or have not had any luck with it and suggest i return it for a new unit all together? every now and then the pixel turns on during the reds, so i know it has the potential to do the reds. but what do you guys suggest?

I asked the same question and this reply was given to me by Vinnie:

Quote:


Originally Posted by vinnie97
I think what you're experiencing *is* an intermittently failing subpixel; the component of the cell that is responsible for emitting red. I have one that has never emitted green since I powered on the set and also have a secondary green subpixel that is failing intermittently (it resolves temporarily when it is "excercised" akin to what you did with the slideshow or when the voltage is temporarily increased through the service menu).

It may very well come back but there's also a (IMO) slim chance you may never see it again.

I only have one of those in the top left corner. I only saw it for 10 minutes the first night I had the plasma and haven't seen it come back since. I might have lucked out, or it might come back sometime later into the Kuro's life. When I first saw it, I sped up the slideshow to pass rapidly through the color screens to "exercise" the subpixel...it's one of the techniques used to revive stuck subpixels...if it helped...I don't know. If it bothers you enough, you should see about getting your Kuro replaced. Since it's a local Best Buy, and I've heard they still have substantial stock of these, I would see about arranging a replacement.

*It's been a month of ownership in which I haven't seen that subpixel fail on red.
post #10907 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehien View Post

So for now, I always use Power Save Mode 2. With this mode the buzz is pretty much gone.

My question is, what areas of picture quality does this impact???

I consider myself having good hearing. But when it comes to PQ, I'm not so sure...

It makes the picture..."dimmer" I guess is the best word. A little less bright? I find it very subtle and can't always notice when switching. While playing some AVI files, I don't notice a difference between the two settings; while playing a Blu-Ray, I did...but again subtle. People more attuned to noticing levels of brightness might notice a greater difference.

For me/my TV I can still hear the buzz in Power Save Mode 2. But yes, it has reduced the volume of the buzz. I'm listening to the TV at rather low levels at night, however. Barely noticeable at increased volume while watching a movie unless there is a quiet scene.
post #10908 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent_C View Post

There's no shortage of people unhappy with their calibrations.

A_C

Quote:
Originally Posted by buylongterm View Post

I've been to a ton of different stores where they show you 2 TV's. One that wasn't ISF calibrated, and one that was. Every time I see those displays, I cringed because the calibrated TV always looks Dull, brown and flat.

I'm only interested in owner reports, including the name of the calibrator, that are posted here at AVS.

By the way, I wouldn't expect to see quality calibrations on display at any BB/Magnolia store, or to read an informed report of a good Geek Squad calibration.
post #10909 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

5) If you want the most accurate images you can get from your display... the AV-SCIENCE (aka AVS) Forums are a great place for that exploration. If you are only interested in "what you like"... there are plenty of other forums for you and most of the threads here really won't be much interested in "what you like" since the majority of AVS Forum members are here to find out what makes an accurate image and how to get that on their display at home. These aren't the "What You Like" Forums... they are the AVSCIENCE Forums and there are all sorts of reasons the SCIENCE of video imaging works.

Doug, I appreciate your immense expertise and the insistence you have on image accuracy. I've had my primary displays professionally, calibrated for years and it's been well worth it every time.

At the same time I don't think these 2 ideas of "accuracy" vs. "what you like" should be considered mutually exclusive. For the sake of discussion, a couple of points to consider:

1) Accuracy is not "all or nothing".
Showing grass as "yellow" that should be a specific shade and intensity of "green" is one color error. Showing the grass as a just little bit more (visually) intense shade of 'green' than what is specified as accurate is a different level of "inaccuracy".

Both are technically "inaccurate" to one degree or the other but the difference in degree is a very important distinction. Is even a calibrated Kuro Elite perfectly 'accurate' given it's colorspace? A professional calibration is getting a given display as close as possible to a production standards but usually accepting some degree of "inaccuracy".

Quote:
Both the Pioneers, by default are innacurate for PAL/NTSC and HDTV in different ways. Judicious use of the colour control and perhaps the CMS system they have can make things more accurate though.
.........
No ISF will not get the colourspaces bang on as Pioneer do not give you a CMS system that has the level of adjustment required. You will get it as accurate as is physically possible within the limitations of the device.

If you want it bang on you need to invest in an off board video processor. Which when partnered with a 9G would be able to give you the correct colourspaces for NTSC, HDTV and PAL dependant on the incoming signal type. This level of performance is of course not cheap but if you are someone who demands the ultimate performance then you know where I am.....

Gordon @ Convergent AV

2) Source content is often not perfectly accurate to begin with.

For the pristine sources which adhere closest to standards such as blu-ray the results of a calibrated setting is most reliable. But what about the variance from station to station, broadcast to broadcast? How can we be sure that the accurate setting looks best in every case?

Sports broadcasts can often vary quite drastically. Yesterday I had the NBA game on ESPN and Local broadcast. Both were in "HD" but everything about the visuals was very different, including color saturation. A less accurate setting might have actually offset the inaccurate content in one of those cases.

Then there's SD content when many people are really only calibrated for an HD standard. Throw in video games where once again the degree of conformance to standard can vary significantly and clearly there can be some usefulness in alternate settings.

I encourage anyone to get at least one accurately calibrated setting even if you find you enjoy mid and high temp settings or other alterations. Personally I find having the most accurately calibrated setting actually helps you to adjust and use even the less accurate settings. Using the calibrated setting and assuming the source is conforming to standard you can determine what the content should look like giving you an easy reference point to make adjustments to "what you like".
post #10910 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I highly doubt any owner that has had his set calibrated will post their personal RGB settings.



Now for the others in the thread....

WHAT THE HELL HAS BEEN GOING ON!?!?!?!?!

This Pure Cinema discussion has been going on for about a week now. Why is it still being discussed when it has already been explained????

For the last time... these are the facts....

IF you send your Kuro a 1080p/24 signal, it WILL display it @ 72Hz (with 3:3 pull down) in Pure Cinema OFF and Advance. The ONLY difference between Pure Cinema OFF and Advance is that Advance will extract 24fps material out of 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i signals. AGAIN Pure Cinema OFF and Pure Cinema Advance are IDENTICAL when it comes to a 1080p/24 signal.

IF you use Pure Cinema Standard with a 1080p/24 signal, it WILL display it @ 60Hz with 3:2 pulldown.

IF you use Pure Cinema Smooth with a 1080p/24 signal, it WILL display it @ 60Hz and frame interpolation with ZERO pulldown. That's right ZERO pulldown.

video313, I'm personally tired of seeing your crap that has ZERO validity behind it. Your videos are complete garbage. . and that mode is Smooth mode due to it's frame interpolation. I will be more than happy to pay you a visit with the proper equipment to PROVE to you once and for all that Pure Cinema OFF displays 1080p/24 signals @ 72Hz. If you actually have the balls for this challenge, book me a flight. I'll even calibrate your set at no charge.

Is it possible that the Elite and non-Elite are different here?

I built a simple phototransistor circuit this evening so that I could actually measure the screen refresh. On my 111FD, I observed the following when the display was fed a 1080p/24 source:

Off - 60 Hz refresh
Standard - 72 Hz refresh
Smooth - 60 Hz refresh
Advance - 72 Hz refresh

I am 100% certain of this, and it seems at odds with the statements above unless there is an Elite vs non-Elite difference.
post #10911 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

Patrick, is your panel calibrated? If not, then you also are not watching an accurate mode! Until I get my panel professionally calibrated, I will continue with the two mode viewing process, accepting that both are "off".


*sigh* 6300k or 6600k is still accurate compared to the horror show modes. I'm using the offsets which is pretty easy and I can guarantee you it's much better than your standard or performance mode.
Honestly the color temperature isn't the worst part it's the DRE function they force on the screws up the gamma. Movie mode is 90% "accurate" out of the box.. The modes you guys watch aren't and never will be close to a faithful representation of the source material. That's what I and most people that frequent AVS forums care about, you guys seem to be missing the point.

I can understand WHY the need for 2 modes, hell I even throw on standard sometimes.. What I cannot comprehend is this notion that an accurate TV is an ugly TV or dull looking when calibrated or close to the standard. I hate what standard/performance do but they are a necessary evil when the living is full of sun and I can't black out due to guests/wife. Would I ever do so in a dark room? NEVER! I actually breathe a sigh of relief when switching to movie mode after putting up with standard for the aforementioned reasons. You get rid of the ultra fake look and choppy motion because of the ton of crap processing they have turned on. If the 5020/6020 had ISF day settings I'd use them far before ever touching that stuff.
post #10912 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptrunley View Post

Is it possible that the Elite and non-Elite are different here?

I built a simple phototransistor circuit this evening so that I could actually measure the screen refresh. On my 111FD, I observed the following when the display was fed a 1080p/24 source:

Off - 60 Hz refresh
Standard - 72 Hz refresh
Smooth - 60 Hz refresh
Advance - 72 Hz refresh

I am 100% certain of this, and it seems at odds with the statements above unless there is an Elite vs non-Elite difference.

Yes they are different! It was only posted about 6 months ago that the elite and non elite differ before numbskulls started a 15 page rant about it.
post #10913 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by buylongterm View Post

I've been to a ton of different stores where they show you 2 TV's. One that wasn't ISF calibrated, and one that was. Every time I see those displays, I cringed because the calibrated TV always looks Dull, brown and flat.

It's amazing how the whole point and goal of this site can be lost on people. Whatever you do don't give your opinion on the calibration forum.. The comments posted here will seem kind and tender in comparison.

This isn't consumer reports with a dash of what settings look best, this is a freakin a science forum.
post #10914 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent_C View Post

There's no shortage of people unhappy with their calibrations.

A_C

Their own fault for wasting $300 dollars without knowing what accurate is. LCDs also outsell plasmas, americans "elected" GWB twice, and people love Fox news. Doesn't make them right(or sane ).
post #10915 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

...you guys seem to be missing the point....

No, actually we are not. We all realize that having the panel calibrated will render a better picture. My point is simply that, and you confirmed this, different modes are beneficial due to the surrounding ambient lighting conditions, or for the source material. Yes, DVDs in a darkened room look terrific in Movie mode in the evening. Right now though, without my panel calibrated, I would never watch a sporting event in that mode, day or night, and can't imagine doing so later.
post #10916 of 14941
You seem to get it but this guy doesn't

Quote:
Originally Posted by buylongterm View Post

I've been to a ton of different stores where they show you 2 TV's. One that wasn't ISF calibrated, and one that was. Every time I see those displays, I cringed because the calibrated TV always looks Dull, brown and flat.
post #10917 of 14941
He may have a point also. Compared to the torch mode of panels in those big box stores, a calibrated panel could look flat and dull. Go into one, find the Panasonic panels, and set the menu to their THX setting. Looks awful in a fluorescent lighted store, and you would wonder what all the hype is. In a home setting, it looks very nice, although not as good as our Pioneers.
post #10918 of 14941
I agree but we all know store viewing is not a way to get an idea of what we watch in our homes. Exactly why AVS is here to let people know that
post #10919 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

No, actually we are not. We all realize that having the panel calibrated will render a better picture. My point is simply that, and you confirmed this, different modes are beneficial due to the surrounding ambient lighting conditions, or for the source material. Yes, DVDs in a darkened room look terrific in Movie mode in the evening. Right now though, without my panel calibrated, I would never watch a sporting event in that mode, day or night, and can't imagine doing so later.

It's all a matter of personal taste and that's perfectly all right. After all, why pay the price of a Kuro display and not adjust it to suit yourself?

Nevertheless, the dirty little secret of plasma television is that muted settings render colors and shadow details most accurately. That's why I use Movie mode exclusively on my 6020, even in the daytime and even for sports. I have come to appreciate the extra shadow detail Movie mode provides, particularly in outdoor sporting events where there are both brightly lighted and deeply shaded areas. That others differ does not make either point of view wrong.
post #10920 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptrunley View Post

Is it possible that the Elite and non-Elite are different here?

I built a simple phototransistor circuit this evening so that I could actually measure the screen refresh. On my 111FD, I observed the following when the display was fed a 1080p/24 source:

Off - 60 Hz refresh
Standard - 72 Hz refresh
Smooth - 60 Hz refresh
Advance - 72 Hz refresh

I am 100% certain of this, and it seems at odds with the statements above unless there is an Elite vs non-Elite difference.

What, exactly, do you think the photocell is measuring?

Is the photocell going to detect refresh rate when the pixels have a sub-frame rate of 360Hz while the frame rates are 60Hz or 72Hz and there is NO BLANKING between frames? Plasma TVs do not BLANK the panel between frames. There is NOTHING going on that a photocell is EVER likely to detect.

Some spectrophotometers have the ability to sync on the sub-pixel frequency of 360Hz and they will accurately detect frame rates. I doubt your "simple photometer" is seeing ANYTHING it can measure accurately.

Plasma pixels can only be on or off. To produce intermediate luminance levels, the sub-pixel frequency is used to modulate the pixels... a window representing 50% stimulus would have the pixels in a 1/60th of a second frame changing levels 360 times during that frame... 180 of the sub-pixel cycles would be "off", 180 of the sub-pixel cycles would be "on". If you display a 50% stim window... there will be NO "FRAME" detectable by a photocell. THe pixels will simply be turning on and off at the rate of 360x60 or 2100Hz. How would you know where the "frame" is? There's no blanking between frames.

If you made a test pattern that had 12 white frames and 12 black frames interleaved for alternating 24p white/black frames on a disc... how is the photocell going to measure 60Hz when there will be an uneven cadence of white and black frames (no gap will be detectable between doubled black or doubled white frames)?

I'm VERY skeptical that a photocell is worth anything when measuring plasma refresh rate.
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