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The Official Pioneer 9G non-Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 366

post #10951 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

The frequency the pixels operate at is 360Hz per frame (at least at 60Hz, not sure if this remains at 360Hz for 72Hz refresh rate or drops to a lower rate because of the higher frame rate)... so lets say frame number 1 you are looking at is black... for 360 pixel cycles, all pixels are "off". Now... let's say the next frame is white... there's no need to "blank" the panel. The pixels are perfectly capable of turning off or on in a single "cycle"... if there are 60 frames per second and pixels are operating at 360 flashes per frame, that means there are 21,600 pixel flashes per second... so if your first frame is black... you have your 360 "off" cycles, and if your next frame is white, you are going to have 360 "on" cycles... that means for the second beginning with the first black frame, you have 360 off signals to the pixels and for cycle 361 (first "flicker" in the next frame, white in the case of this example), the pixel is simply turned on. This is what happens 360 times every frame. The entire next frame is already in a buffer before it is displayed, so there's no delay. A manufacturer of spectroradiometers has confirmed this after discussing the matter with Pioneer engineers. No blanking. When you "scan" a CRT with an electron beam, blanking is inescapable. There is no blanking in plasmas because it is not necessary. Pixels are instructed to turn on or off 21,600 times a second and each 360 cycles is 1 frame (this all assumes 60Hz refresh rate of course). There is no need for a pause every 360 pixel cycles.

This simplification is missing important factors that will come into play when displaying anything other than a completely black or completely white frame. A minor point is that if you actually attempted to get any plasma to turn on all the subpixels at 100% duty cycle you would hit the ABL and it would actually display something less than 100% white. However, you have deeper misconceptions about the way subfields work and how subfield weighting plays a factor. Please read this thread, focusing mainly on xrox's posts, in order to understand how plasma actually use the subfields:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post15159223

Here is a quote that is important:

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

CLEAR driving uses a single reset pulse at the start of each frame and then uses contiguous driving.

Two independent measurements of the PRO-111FD have confirmed the existence of an unmistakable frame rate frequency component to the display of normal program material (not pure black or pure white). My personal experience with my set, where I can see flicker on certain material at 60 Hz but not at 72Hz also confirms this.

My measurements are performed in near real-time (the spectrum is displayed every ~1s), and on normal material I can see the frequency peak move from 60Hz to 72Hz depending on the source or the settings on the display. There is a 100% correlation between the expected frame rate and the measured frame rate.

It seems clear that in reality we can perceive and measure the frame rate.

You can either continue to deny this or you can spend the time to understand the theory a bit better. If you do this I'm sure you will end up without a conflict between reality and theory. As a thought experiment, trying thinking about what happens when something other than pure black or pure white is displayed, say 50% brightness.

Personally I don't have a conflict between the measurements and theory, but that is because I understand it better and I'm always willing to learn more.
post #10952 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

...but who wants to go to the trouble of changing settings all the time?

I understand that but in that case the settings choice is based more on convenience rather than purely on either accuracy or "what you like" which were the 2 choices under discussion.

FWIW although I find my calibrated movie mode setting best most of the time and acceptable almost all of the time there are occasions where I find an alternate less accurate setting simply looks better or just different in a way I like for a given broadcast (esp. with SD) or piece of content.

It may well be that the alternate setting is also more accurate in a certain respect for a given show or piece of content. Perhaps for instance the content is undersaturated and the less accurate setting compensates some or it's too dim and a brightness boost offsets etc.

I wrote about the odd dimness I found on the Hancock Blu-ray for instance although this rarely occurs with BD in my experience.

Getting one most accurate setting and sticking with it is more convenient no doubt and does guarantee excellent results in most cases and decent results in the vast majority.
post #10953 of 14941
Quote:
It seems clear that in reality we can perceive and measure the frame rate.

If you ever get a chance to take the measurements on a Non-Elite then please post as that could confirm or refute the original question and assertion as it relates to this thread.
post #10954 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

If you ever get a chance to take the measurements on a Non-Elite then please post as that could confirm or refute the original question and assertion as it relates to this thread.

If anybody with a 5020/6020 in the New York City area is willing to have me do the refresh rate test with my photocell device, please send me a private message.
post #10955 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

The frequency the pixels operate at is 360Hz per frame (at least at 60Hz, not sure if this remains at 360Hz for 72Hz refresh rate or drops to a lower rate because of the higher frame rate)............

Your thoughts seem to be centering on the AC frequency the pixels operate at (called the sustain frequency) and has no bearing on the visible refresh at all. Sustain frequencies are usually in the kHz range.

Independent of the sustain frequency is the subfield frequency which is the number of subfields per second. Subfields are weighted time periods for the pixels to emit light. Typically 8-14 subfields per refresh are used meaning 480-840Hz frequency.

Then comes the actual visible and detectible refresh frequency which is essentially the combination of the panel refresh rate (usually 60Hz) and the repetitive weighted pattern of subfields causing a perceivable effective duty cycle. The weights of the subfields are in order from smallest to biggest. To simply describe it:
  • Each frame is built up in brightness over time using increasing subfield weights
  • This in general means the beginning of each frame is very dark and the end of each frame is very bright.
  • Our eyes perceive the beginning of each frame as being dark and the end being very bright and as this pattern repeats a flicker can be perceived at the refresh frequency of the panel (usually 60Hz)
post #10956 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by razi View Post

After a lot of reading up on this subject, including a bunch of patent applications, available online for viewing, I'm not sure that the statement above is entirely accurate. It appears that most plasma displays, and Pioneers in particular, are designed to have an interval of 'blanking' that is in sync with the framerate. Given that with the PWM techniques that all plasmas use to modulate pixel brightness, why would they not provide for a blanking period? That is, use some of the subfields to modulate the brightness to zero ( or as close as it's capable of ) between frames. Isn't a blanking period between frames a good thing? Isn't this part of the reason why plasmas have better motion handling than LCD displays?

Plasmas have better motion properties because the pixels have no "lag" and no blanking is NEEDED... remember, the pixels can be turned on and off at the rate of 21,600 cycles per second. (360cycles/frame times 60 frames per second). Why would you need a blanking period if the pixels turn on and off that fast? You don't. The only thing that would make plasma motion better is if sources had 60 frames per second instead of 30p (or 60i) or 24p. If you can make an entire frame of pixels change from one frame to the next in 1/21,600th of a second, why on earth would you need blanking? (and the next generation of plasma panels will be modulating pixels much faster than that).
post #10957 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by razi View Post

After a lot of reading up on this subject, including a bunch of patent applications, available online for viewing, I'm not sure that the statement above is entirely accurate. It appears that most plasma displays, and Pioneers in particular, are designed to have an interval of 'blanking' that is in sync with the framerate. Given that with the PWM techniques that all plasmas use to modulate pixel brightness, why would they not provide for a blanking period? That is, use some of the subfields to modulate the brightness to zero ( or as close as it's capable of ) between frames. Isn't a blanking period between frames a good thing? Isn't this part of the reason why plasmas have better motion handling than LCD displays?

Plasmas have better motion properties because the pixels have no "lag" and no blanking is NEEDED... remember, the pixels can be turned on and off at the rate of 21,600 cycles per second. (360cycles/frame times 60 frames per second). Why would you need a blanking period if the pixels turn on and off that fast? You don't. The only thing that would make plasma motion better is if sources had 60 frames per second instead of 30p (or 60i) or 24p. If you can make an entire frame of pixels change from one frame to the next in 1/21,600th of a second, why on earth would you need blanking? (and the next generation of plasma panels will be modulating pixels much faster than that).

And no, blanking a panel between frames is NOT a good thing and should be avoided when it CAN be avoided. CRT technology REQUIRED blanking. Projecting film REQUIRES blanking so you don't see the film frame in motion. These are not ideal presentation formats. I don't believe DLP requires blanking either - the mirrors just instantaneously begin tilting at a new frequency for the next frame, you don't have to reset every mirror in the array between frames.
post #10958 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptrunley View Post

This simplification is missing important factors that will come into play when displaying anything other than a completely black or completely white frame. A minor point is that if you actually attempted to get any plasma to turn on all the subpixels at 100% duty cycle you would hit the ABL and it would actually display something less than 100% white. However, you have deeper misconceptions about the way subfields work and how subfield weighting plays a factor. Please read this thread, focusing mainly on xrox's posts, in order to understand how plasma actually use the subfields:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post15159223

Here is a quote that is important:



Two independent measurements of the PRO-111FD have confirmed the existence of an unmistakable frame rate frequency component to the display of normal program material (not pure black or pure white). My personal experience with my set, where I can see flicker on certain material at 60 Hz but not at 72Hz also confirms this.

My measurements are performed in near real-time (the spectrum is displayed every ~1s), and on normal material I can see the frequency peak move from 60Hz to 72Hz depending on the source or the settings on the display. There is a 100% correlation between the expected frame rate and the measured frame rate.

It seems clear that in reality we can perceive and measure the frame rate.

You can either continue to deny this or you can spend the time to understand the theory a bit better. If you do this I'm sure you will end up without a conflict between reality and theory. As a thought experiment, trying thinking about what happens when something other than pure black or pure white is displayed, say 50% brightness.

Personally I don't have a conflict between the measurements and theory, but that is because I understand it better and I'm always willing to learn more.

I am simply repeating the information provided by Pioneer engineers to someone who develops and manufactures spectroradiometers. The Pioneer engineers told him there was no blanking in plasma panels that was anything like what existed in CRTs. And they also provided the info about the switching rates of pixels that spectroradiometers need to be able to detect in order to lock on the pixels to make accurate readings.

Prior to getting that info a week ago or so, I thought that plasma panels operated with either a real or perceptual blanking interval also.
post #10959 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Plasmas have better motion properties because the pixels have no "lag" and no blanking is NEEDED... remember, the pixels can be turned on and off at the rate of 21,600 cycles per second. (360cycles/frame times 60 frames per second). Why would you need a blanking period if the pixels turn on and off that fast? You don't.

How does a plasma handle the sources that contain a blanking interval?
post #10960 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by hell_spawn27 View Post

Folks, I need your advice I have an anthem statement D2 processor and was planning to buy an the non-elite 60" from Pioneer. Now I read in the forum that I need the Elite if I want the signals to pass through with out being processed by TV's scaler.

As far I am concerned, I want to use obviously the D2's scaler and have the display not do anything to the signal it receives. For this someone mentioned, there was something called the just scan mode in Samsung? What's the equivalent of that in Pioneer plasma's and is it only available in the elite series??

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Get a Pioneer 600M monitor. Same 9G glass and a little thinner. It has more adjustments than the 6020 too, but no ISF menu. Just hope you don't get a broken one.
post #10961 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Plasmas have better motion properties because the pixels have no "lag" and no blanking is NEEDED... remember, the pixels can be turned on and off at the rate of 21,600 cycles per second. (360cycles/frame times 60 frames per second). Why would you need a blanking period if the pixels turn on and off that fast? You don't. The only thing that would make plasma motion better is if sources had 60 frames per second instead of 30p (or 60i) or 24p. If you can make an entire frame of pixels change from one frame to the next in 1/21,600th of a second, why on earth would you need blanking? (and the next generation of plasma panels will be modulating pixels much faster than that).

You are missing the "hold-type" component of display induced blur.

1 - Slow pixel response or lag as you put it
- blur is created on the screen

2 - Hold time of each frame (how long each frame is displayed)
- blur is created on your retina

Blanking periods or shorter duty cycles help reduce blur caused by #2 above. You should read up on this phenomenon as it is very interesting IMO. And as for Plasma displays, the effective duty cycle is ~ 35 - 50% and there is of course lag due to the phosphor decay which is much longer than CRT phosphors.
post #10962 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

the pixels can be turned on and off at the rate of 21,600 cycles per second. (360cycles/frame times 60 frames per second). Why would you need a blanking period if the pixels turn on and off that fast? .....
And no, blanking a panel between frames is NOT a good thing and should be avoided when it CAN be avoided. CRT technology REQUIRED blanking. Projecting film REQUIRES blanking so you don't see the film frame in motion. These are not ideal presentation formats.

Based on my understanding, plasmas refresh each frame at the frame rate which in the US is mostly 60Hz and individual pixels are refreshed (pulsed) at a rate dependent on the # of subfields (480Hz to 840 Hz). Each frame is initiated with a reset and it is the transition from the peak brightness of an individual pixel in the previous frame, to the reset at the start of the next, that manifests itself as a flicker which is detectable by the eye (and instruments) as the refresh rate. It is also responsible for what is effective a blanking period. It is much shorter in duration than the real blanking in CRTs, but then CRTs are much more susceptible to flickering than even PDPs.

I do believe that some form of blanking is a good thing. It is why some of the newer LED backlit LCDs are starting to cycle the backlight at a multiple of the framerate.
post #10963 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by razi View Post

Based on my understanding, plasmas refresh each frame at the frame rate which in the US is mostly 60Hz and individual pixels are refreshed (pulsed) at a rate dependent on the # of subfields (480Hz to 840 Hz). Each frame is initiated with a reset and it is the transition from the peak brightness of an individual pixel in the previous frame, to the reset at the start of the next, that manifests itself as a flicker which is detectable by the eye (and instruments) as the refresh rate. It is also responsible for what is effective a blanking period. It is much shorter in duration than the real blanking in CRTs, but then CRTs are much more susceptible to flickering than even PDPs..

That is good logic and knowledge but is not the cause of flicker. I will post a graphic from a paper I have that should get the point across about subfield weights causing flicker.



Quote:
Originally Posted by razi View Post

I do believe that some form of blanking is a good thing. It is why some of the newer LED backlit LCDs are starting to cycle the backlight at a multiple of the framerate.

Yes, having a blanking period or short duty cycle reduces the time each frame is displayed on your retina. This reduces hold type blurring. Plasma displays have an effective duty cycle that is ~35% which is the main reason why they are considered excellent for motion relative to modern LCDs with short response times.
post #10964 of 14941
Hopefully this post ends the confusion and we can all understand why Plasma displays flicker and why the refresh can be easily measured and detected.

Plasma displays create/render frames by building up luminance information over time using subfields that get progressively larger (wider). Let’s take the case of a plasma display with 8 subfields (Panasonic pre Neo):

I’ve drawn up a prophetic example of CRT, PDP, and LCD displaying a full white screen at 48Hz for comparison.
  • All three displays are displaying a full white screen in these examples
  • The solid gray rectangles are the time the display emits light
  • The dotted line is the amount of light reaching our retina (integrated by the retina)
  • The Plasma display has 8 subfields of increasing widths where dark detail is always rendered in the beginning of each frame while bright detail is always rendered in the second half of the frame



Now in scientific papers the authors have described the same phenomenon by combining the subfield weight (width) and the light intensity created by each subfield. In other words the height of each rectangle here is the subfield width which describes the amount of light reaching our retina.

As you can easily see here, the display flickers strongly at 50Hz unless the subfields are arranged in a way that spreads the bright subfields around.




NOTE : To generate full white the display needs to use all 8 subfields. To generate a very dark scene the display needs only 1 or 2 subfields. Therefore flicker will be much more apparent on a full white screen than a dark scene due to the concept of effective duty cycle illustrated in the above graphics.
post #10965 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkish View Post

Do you own an Elite or non-Elite? I'm looking for alternative settings after my 111FD has broken in.

Thanks!

This entire thread is for the Non-Elite. Mine is the 5020FD.
post #10966 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

Right, so then back in the real world 99% of everyone is watching something less than perfectly accurate with respect to standards.

My point was that the range of "inaccurate" settings is so large that the "what you like" setting could represent a great deal of different images, some much closer to accurate in different respects than others. No wonder then that some may find them usable in different scenarios.

OK, why bother chanigng any setting when the TV comes out of the box then? Just leave it alone and watch TV. If somebody likes those settings - they are OK to use by your logic. They may actually see 1 hour of TV out of every 1000 hours where those out-of-box settings are pretty good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

Given your analogy, a slightly inaccurate setting which moves the bullseye offcenter a bit could actually be more accurate for a specific channel or broadcast if a user can visually detect the improvement. So then the marginally "inaccurate" alternate setting could be useful on a case by case basis.

Yeah, and a somewhat inaccurate setting would also make more channels, on average, LESS accurate than having a setting closer to the best the TV is capable of. So what's more important? Having the smallest range of errors or misadjusting the TV to make 1 channel look a little better at the expense of more accuracy on 10 or 50 other channels and possibly less accuracy on Blu-ray also if there's just 1 input to the TV from an AVR?

If you are going to use SCIENCE (as in AVScience) to benefit your viewing, you need to do it right. If you're just going to twiddle controls until there's something you THINK is good... that's fine, but these AV-SCIENCE forums aren't much interested in your results. We want to know what you do to/with various displays to make them look the best they can. Some people do this with pro calibration or DIY calibration (and share their measurement results which often benefit other owners), some people decide to use a setup disc, others decide to copy recommended settings from somewhere... those approaches at least have a chance of making things better, on average, though copying settings is wildly variable from brand to brand and model to model. A hosed source is not a good target for calibration or setup by any logic.
post #10967 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogney Baux View Post

How does a plasma handle the sources that contain a blanking interval?

What sources would those be? VHS tape?
post #10968 of 14941
Does anyone know if there is a way to see how much the TV has been used? I am thinking of buying a used TV and need a way to make sure the time the TV was on was not more than what the seller says. Is there a way to reset that?
post #10969 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by pk.fubar View Post

Does anyone know if there is a way to see how much the TV has been used? I am thinking of buying a used TV and need a way to make sure the time the TV was on was not more than what the seller says. Is there a way to reset that?

the total time the panel is plugged in and the total hours it is actually turned on are in the service menu. you would need a software program like ControlCal or have access to a Pioneer factory service remote to gain access to that feature on the 9g pioneers. I do not think you can reset the timers. maybe if the firmware was reloaded but thats a guess and never heard of that.

with 8g and older pioneers there is a remote code sequence to enter the menu. you can find it on page 2 post 58 of the 8g settings thread. it does not work on the 9g though as pioneer changed it.
post #10970 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by pk.fubar View Post

Does anyone know if there is a way to see how much the TV has been used? I am thinking of buying a used TV and need a way to make sure the time the TV was on was not more than what the seller says. Is there a way to reset that?

Don't know about resetting that...there shouldn't be a way. You can see the panel hours when using ControlCal in the calibration process.
post #10971 of 14941
Thanks GrandMasterJ and dssturbo1! So I need to either find out how to use ContralCal or get my hands on this special remote.
post #10972 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by pk.fubar View Post

Does anyone know if there is a way to see how much the TV has been used? I am thinking of buying a used TV and need a way to make sure the time the TV was on was not more than what the seller says. Is there a way to reset that?

like others have said: controlcal, but there's also an option to clear panel hours in the service menu. didn't try it but i remember seeing it.
post #10973 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by pk.fubar View Post

Thanks GrandMasterJ and dssturbo1! So I need to either find out how to use ContralCal or get my hands on this special remote.

what panel are you considering buying?? the latest Pioneers have a half life expectancy of ~60,000 hours.

sounds like you really don't trust the guy your looking to buy from.
post #10974 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

OK, why bother chanigng any setting when the TV comes out of the box then? Just leave it alone and watch TV. If somebody likes those settings - they are OK to use by your logic. They may actually see 1 hour of TV out of every 1000 hours where those out-of-box settings are pretty good.

You must be simply skimming my posts because you clearly are not quoting "my logic" based on a careful reading. You're responding as though I indicated an inaccurate choice is just as good an accurate one which is far off the mark of what I posted:

Quote:


At the same time I don't think these 2 ideas of "accuracy" vs. "what you like" should be considered mutually exclusive.

After all this display most and displays are capable of multiple adjusted settings. Again, I appreciate your guardianship of image accuracy, but please take note again of what I posted.

Quote:


I encourage anyone to get at least one accurately calibrated setting even if you find you enjoy mid and high temp settings or other alterations. Personally I find having the most accurately calibrated setting actually helps you to adjust and use even the less accurate settings. Using the calibrated setting and assuming the source is conforming to standard you can determine what the content should look like giving you an easy reference point to make adjustments to "what you like".

Quote:


If you are going to use SCIENCE (as in AVScience) to benefit your viewing, you need to do it right. If you're just going to twiddle controls until there's something you THINK is good... that's fine, but these AV-SCIENCE forums aren't much interested in your results. We want to know what you do to/with various displays to make them look the best they can.

I would contend in fact that my position is more scientific than yours with respect to "what you do to/with various displays to make them look the best they can.". You essentially seem to be suggesting that we set the display to the most accurate setting and then live as best we can with results of the "scatter shooting" from various forms of "inaccurate" content.

I'm saying you also have the option of getting that most accurate setting as your bullseye for most cases but also using alternate settings that shift the bullseye a bit for specific cases where the content is wide of the mark for "accuracy". This actually involves taking more time and energy out to achieve the best possible images rather than simply settling for stationary bullseye in every case.


Quote:


So what's more important? Having the smallest range of errors or misadjusting the TV to make 1 channel look a little better at the expense of more accuracy on 10 or 50 other channels and possibly less accuracy on Blu-ray also if there's just 1 input to the TV from an AVR?

Again, you're quite wide of the mark as it relates to my comments. I'm afraid your posts might be in a cable broadcast mode rather than Blu-ray at the moment.

I have several displays that are pro calibrated. I use those settings most of the time. I appreciate the results of accurate content esp. when used with sources that are accurate to the same standard. Image quality can be simply stunning.

On the other hand because I use a wide range of content, I'm not simply a blu-ray watcher ( even though my collection is sizeable ). You actually made my point with your "bullseye" example which is that the accurate setting is "accurate" only to the extent the content is conforming to standards.

For specific content cases the ability to use alternate settings is not a lack of appreciation for visual science but IMO a superior application of that science.
post #10975 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Hopefully this post ends the confusion and we can all understand why Plasma displays flicker and why the refresh can be easily measured and detected.

Plasma displays create/render frames by building up luminance information over time using subfields that get progressively larger (wider). Let's take the case of a plasma display with 8 subfields (Panasonic pre Neo):

I've drawn up a prophetic example of CRT, PDP, and LCD displaying a full white screen at 48Hz for comparison.
  • All three displays are displaying a full white screen in these examples
  • The solid gray rectangles are the time the display emits light
  • The dotted line is the amount of light reaching our retina (integrated by the retina)
  • The Plasma display has 8 subfields of increasing widths where dark detail is always rendered in the beginning of each frame while bright detail is always rendered in the second half of the frame



Now in scientific papers the authors have described the same phenomenon by combining the subfield weight (width) and the light intensity created by each subfield. In other words the height of each rectangle here is the subfield width which describes the amount of light reaching our retina.

As you can easily see here, the display flickers strongly at 50Hz unless the subfields are arranged in a way that spreads the bright subfields around.




NOTE : To generate full white the display needs to use all 8 subfields. To generate a very dark scene the display needs only 1 or 2 subfields. Therefore flicker will be much more apparent on a full white screen than a dark scene due to the concept of effective duty cycle illustrated in the above graphics.

It makes perfect sense to me.

I can easily detect flicker below 85Hz on any screen by eye.
post #10976 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I am simply repeating the information provided by Pioneer engineers to someone who develops and manufactures spectroradiometers. The Pioneer engineers told him there was no blanking in plasma panels that was anything like what existed in CRTs.

This is correct insofar as CRTs and a plasmas operate on different principles, but it doesn't mean that there is no detectable refresh rate on plasmas. I hope that now you've had a chance to read xrox's very clear explanation that your doubts about being able to perceive and measure plasma refresh rates have been put to bed.
post #10977 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsavitz View Post

I was out of town for 5 days and when I returned home I discovered fingerprints on my 5020 screen even though I was very emphatic with the family about how no one should ever touch the screen.
I tried wiping them off with the cloth that came with the TV and they didn't completely come off. I then moistened the cloth with a bit of Invisible Glass and although the smudges came off, the prints are still visible as a different color on the screen. They're only visible from certain angles but they appear blue while the rest of the screen has a purplish tint.
Has anyone else experienced this and is there any way to get rid of it? It's not visible when the TV is turned on but it's still a little disconcerting that mere fingerprints would become permanent on a TV screen.

Surely someone must have had fingerprints on their screen?
post #10978 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsavitz View Post

Surely someone must have had fingerprints on their screen?


Nope, turns out you're the only one and screwed now...

Just kidding of course. I posted not because I have fingerprints on my screen, but because I relate to your frustration for how to clean a screen that you can't use any sort of cleaner on. Only wispers of distilled water or your own breath. I was surprised to read recently though, maybe in another Kuro thread about someone recommending Invisible Glass for another cleaning problem, which I found shocking since up until that time any kind of cleaner was a supposed big no no. What's a Kuro owner to do!?!
post #10979 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsavitz View Post

Surely someone must have had fingerprints on their screen?

That would really tick me off.

I'm sure you saw all the posts on this. But to make a long story short: Pioneer says nothing wet under any circumstances can be used on the screen. If there is something on the screen that will not come off after a lot of rubbing with the microfiber cloth, use a drop(s) of distilled or filtered water and the cloth. The water cannot have any minerals, impurities, particulates, etc., in it. The key really is the cloth and its unusual cleaning properties, but you have to know when enough rubbing is enough, not to damage the coating.

Citrus cleaners are great for removing just about anything, including oil residue left from latent prints. But I don't know how the acidic content would react on the screen. As a last resort, I'd find one that has nothing in it but citrus (orange, or maybe lemon), use a SLIGHT amount because they really "creep" a lot, and then go over it a lot with the distilled or filtered water repeatedly over and over and with the cloth because that stuff is very hard to rinse off with water. It WILL leave a residue and there's no telling what affect that residue will have once the screen heats up to ~110°.
post #10980 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsavitz View Post

Surely someone must have had fingerprints on their screen?


I've only really cleaned mine once in 6 months and it was a nightmare of going over the same spot over and over and over without pressing too hard. What the hell was Pioneer thinking with this screen. I did end up using dabs of distilled water on the cloth. In the end it came out well but an hour to clean a screen is ridiculous.
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