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The Official Pioneer 9G non-Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 481

post #14401 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by progrhythmical View Post

Can you provide a reference please?

The 500M and 600M monitors have the same feature set as the 101FD and 141FD Signature Elite monitors. That feature set is similar to the 111 and 151 Elite televisions. Not so much with the 5020 and 6020 televisions.

Please see the feature comparison table for more details.
post #14402 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by progrhythmical View Post

I had no idea that this forum designated the 600m a "non elite" panel.

This forum doesn't consider the KRP models (500M/600M) to be non-Elite.
Quote:


It has been discussed in here MANNNNY TIMES!
This is the first time I have heard anybody balk at the 600m discussing. That's news to me.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by many. There are about 14,000 posts in this (the non-Elite) thread and about 11,000 in the two KRP threads.

There are people that are unaware of the differences between the various 9G Kuros. Sometimes I point out the issue sometimes not.
post #14403 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

The 500M and 600M monitors have the same feature set as the 101FD and 141FD Signature Elite monitors. That feature set is similar to the 111 and 151 Elite televisions. Not so much with the 5020 and 6020 televisions.

Please see the feature comparison table for more details.


Other than them being monitors without a tuner, the KRP series are close to the same as a 101/141 Elite, only after you add the ISF patch to the KRP's. But even after the patch they still are not really Elites, they are still KRP series sets. You can also get all the ISF modes and adjustments that the 111/151 Elites have, in the 5020 and 6020 sets as well, by swapping out one circuit board into from a Elite. But that does not in no way make a 5020 or 6020 set a Elite, and neither does adding a patch to get the ISF modes in a KRP series, make a 500M or 600M a Elite.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

This forum doesn't consider the KRP models (500M/600M) to be non-Elite.

It don't matter what a certain few people in this forum consider, the fact is that the KRP series 500M/600M sets are not really Elites. No matter how much you and some others would like it to be, they are not.
post #14404 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Other than them being monitors without a tuner, the KRP series are close to the same as a 101/141 Elite, only after you add the ISF patch to the KRP's. But even after the patch they still are not really Elites, they are still KRP series sets.
...
It don't matter what a certain few people in this forum consider, the fact is that the KRP series 500M/600M sets are not really Elites. No matter how much you and some others would like it to be, they are not.

I'm referring to function. The documented feature set is available for anyone to see. Note that the KRP series replaced the North American Signature series in the rest of the world as the top of line Kuro and doesn't require being set to 101/141 mode to enable ISF (since the series ships that way everywhere but North America). By the way, setting the country mode in a KRP isn't a patch and doesn't require replacing a board. It's a toggle in the factory setup menu.

At the hardware level the difference list in the 101/500M or 141/600M service manuals, with the exception of the HDMI connectors and driver, is restricted to cosmetic items (like the bezel).
post #14405 of 14945
No matter how much you want it to be, the KRP's are not Elites!
post #14406 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

No matter how much you want it to be, the KRP's are not Elites!

The name Elite is a marketing tag and yes, the KRP series isn't labeled Elite.

If you mean anything other than the label do you have any evidence, beyond the cosmetic/inconsequential differences between the monitors, to support your opinion?
post #14407 of 14945
It's not my opinion, Pioneer was not marketing them, nor labeling them, or selling them as Elites. Service manuals covering more that one model number, and the sharing of some parts, also does not make them a Elite! Sorry, but the service manual idea, is not proof of anything to make them a Elite. Other than for the entire drive train and some suspension parts, a 6cyl Mustang and a 8cyl Mustang GT both share a LOT of parts, and they also use the same shop manual. But that does not also make a 6cyl Mustang into the same thing as a 5.0 8cyl Mustang GT.
post #14408 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

It's not my opinion.

Until you have some facts regarding the KRP vs. the Signature Elite monitors it's still your opinion. Inappropriate analogies aren't facts.

I suggest you get the service manuals for the 9G monitors and review the "Contrast Tables" that enumerate the differences. The monitors share every part of consequence. Not every part except say the panel and drivers to approximate your automobile analogy. They have the same commands, the same features and the same bugs.
post #14409 of 14945
No, I am the one that has the facts straight, you are the one that does not. No matter what the service manual says about contrast tables, and no matter what the measurements are, the fact is that the KRP series sets are not Elites! It's only your opinion that the KRP sets are Elites, and your opinion is wrong.
post #14410 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

No, I am the one that has the facts straight, you are the one that does not. No matter what the service manual says about contrast tables, and no matter what the measurements are, the fact is that the KRP series sets are not Elites! It's only your opinion that the KRP sets are Elites, and your opinion is wrong.

Here are some facts:

They are Kuro Reference Plasma's (KRP).
They are monitors only.
The 500M is a 9.5 panel.
The 600M is a 9 series panel.
The have the same anti-glass coating as the Elite panels.

They measure the same as the corresponding Elite modes.

With Turbe's patch to enable ISF modes there are essentially elites without Tuners and media features.

IMO, they look better because they are thinner and the silver Pioneer logo is more appealing than the gold Elite monicker.

- Rich
post #14411 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Here are some facts:

They are Kuro Reference Plasma's (KRP).
They are monitors only.
The 500M is a 9.5 panel.
The 600M is a 9 series panel.
The have the same anti-glass coating as the Elite panels.

They measure the same as the corresponding Elite modes.

With Turbe's patch to enable ISF modes there are essentially elites without Tuners and media features.

IMO, they look better because they are thinner and the silver Pioneer logo is more appealing than the gold Elite monicker.

- Rich

No, the facts are, that Pioneer never marketed, promoted or sold the KRP sets as a Elite branded product. So no matter how they compare to a actual Elite branded product, they are in fact not a Elite branded product.

And anyone trying to claim that the KRP's are a Elite product, is the same as someone trying to claim that a Denon AVR-4311, is a Denon AVR-A100. Sure the 4300 is the same as a A100 other than for the differences that the A100 has all gold plated connections on the back panel, while the 4311 does not, and the A100 has cast iron feet, where the 4311 does not, and that the front panel on the A100 is glossy and made out of metal where it's plastic on the 4311, and the A100 has a longer warranty and comes with a "signed certificate of authenticity", and a claim of of some higher grade parts. Even though they are essentially exactly the same on all their interior parts and interior construction.

Denon is not the only one that has done something like this, Pioneer has done the same thing in the past also with "sister" AVR's. With one being labeled and sold as a Elite branded product, while the non-Elite branded one was built with all the same internal parts and with the same specs. And yes, they even shared the same service manual.
post #14412 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

No, the facts are, that Pioneer never marketed, promoted or sold the KRP sets as a Elite branded product. So no matter how they compare to a actual Elite branded product, they are in fact not a Elite branded product.

I own a 600m and 500m and paid the same for both of them that my friend paid for his 151. Given the choice, I think he would have selected the 600M.

You are correct, I looked very carefully, and I cannot find those 5 gold letters.

But remember, no matter what you say you do not have the Reference panel
You do realize how silly this conversation is, right?

- Rich
post #14413 of 14945
No doubt a that lot of people benefited by the KRP's being sold at some serious blow out pricing. But it was strange how the KRP series did not even turn up in any great numbers in the US, until the remaining stock of both their regular non-Elite and the Elites lines were dreadfully low. It sure seemed like Pioneer did everything they could to sell them off as much as possible before bringing in the KRP's to the US market.
post #14414 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

No doubt a that lot of people benefited by the KRP's being sold at some serious blow out pricing. But it was strange how the KRP series did not even turn up in any great numbers in the US, until the remaining stock of both their regular non-Elite and the Elites lines were dreadfully low. It sure seemed like Pioneer did everything they could to sell them off as much as possible before bringing in the KRP's to the US market.

The KRP's were the best way to use the remaining panels since they did not have to add the networking and tuner parts (likely purchased). I remember discussing this with Robert (Value Electronics) at the time.

- Rich
post #14415 of 14945
I'm not so sure I would go with that theory only, and yes I know Robert had some insight from Pioneer that we did not, but the rep he got his info from could have also been wrong. And instead they may have also been originally intended for a custom installer or commercial/industrial sales markets. Pioneer had a Magnolia only model at one time that was offered for free with the sale of a FHD1, so it's possible that the 500M/600M sets maybe were originally intended for something like custom installers or commercial/industrial sales. Don't forget how Pioneer even announced at one time when the rumors first started that were getting out of the TV business, that they were in fact going to stay in the business of selling TV's but that Panasonic was going to make their panels for them and that Pioneer would then assemble them. But when the poo hit the fan and they instead decided to get out of the TV business, that then all bets were off and they proceeded to sell off whatever TV's they had left any way they could. With no concern as to what they were originally intended for.
post #14416 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

The KRP's were the best way to use the remaining panels

Best in what sense?
post #14417 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Best in what sense?

Reduces the money required to manufacture the remaining product with the panels off the line. Less parts to buy.

- Rich
post #14418 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Reduces the money required to manufacture the remaining product with the panels off the line. Less parts to buy.

- Rich

I suppose that makes sense for the non-Americas market but there seemed to be sufficient demand for the 101/141 monitors that it would have been more profitable for Pioneer and the Elite dealers to keep building the higher margin items.
post #14419 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

I suppose that makes sense for the non-Americas market but there seemed to be sufficient demand for the 101/141 monitors that it would have been more profitable for Pioneer and the Elite dealers to keep building the higher margin items.

At the same time as the Kuro's release geographic restictions were relaxed.
People can argue this point, but if they had a business plan at all, the distrubution channel was not able to move sufficient product.

It is also possible, that they did not run the numbers.

I am not a big fan of dealer restrictions. But it seems that you create a upper limit on sales with an ever dwindling channel. Were it not for Best Buy Magnolia, there there would be no restrictionsfor volume products.

- Rich
post #14420 of 14945
Ok, well I don't think it's a problem to discuss the KRP models in here. I've have never seen the thread get bogged down with posts. Seriously, how long does it take you to look at all the posts when you come back to the thread? Two minutes? Or better yet, how long until you realize the posts are of no interest to you? Anyway, my opinion and many others us that the KRP's are not elite. The don't have the hand picked glass, nor do they have ISF options (which are HUGE by the way). In my opinion the ISF is comparable to a supercharger. Car with supercharger > Car with out supercharger. Also, if you have to "chip" something to get it performing on an Elite level it's not the real deal. It can be modified to replicate and emulate the real deal, but it will never be. Anyway. I was just trying to help in the first place. I don't have as much knowledge on topic as most in here. I do what I can.
post #14421 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by progrhythmical View Post

Ok, well I don't think it's a problem to discuss the KRP models in here.

People can feel free to do what they want. Of course if you aren't familiar with a monitor you may address issues as if they were Elites or worse xx20. All monitors have the same functions and characteristics which are unique to monitors. Hence my recommendation that KRP questions be directed to the KRP or 141 threads.

Quote:


Anyway, my opinion and many others us that the KRP's are not elite. The don't have the hand picked glass, nor do they have ISF options (which are HUGE by the way).

Well, the whole hand-picked glass thing is probably an urban myth but the 500 and 101 have the same part numbers for the panel and associated electronics, likewise the 600/151/141 share the same panel. Only the 111 is unique.

The 500M has a model and region set at the factory but that can be changed directly from the factory menu or using a tool like KuroControl. if the model is set to 101 it fails. If the model is 500 but region is North America ISFccc is disabled. If the region is EU or JP ISFccc is enabled. No parts or firmware change required.

By the way despite appearances I don't argue that the KRP series is Elite. I've been known to call them non-non-Elite or non-Signature monitors. However non-Elite in this part of the plasma forum means an xx20 and the monitors and the xx20 televisions are the furthest apart in function of the 9G Kuros.
post #14422 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Well, the whole hand-picked glass thing is probably an urban myth but the 500 and 101 have the same part numbers for the panel and associated electronics, likewise the 600/151/141 share the same panel. Only the 111 is unique.

The 500M has a model and region set at the factory but that can be changed directly from the factory menu or using a tool like KuroControl. if the model is set to 101 it fails. If the model is 500 but region is North America ISFccc is disabled. If the region is EU or JP ISFccc is enabled. No parts or firmware change required.

By the way despite appearances I don't argue that the KRP series is Elite. I've been known to call them non-non-Elite or non-Signature monitors. However non-Elite in this part of the plasma forum means an xx20 and the monitors and the xx20 televisions are the furthest apart in function of the 9G Kuros.

I had a 5020 before the 500M and the anti-glare coating is better on the 500M so I think there is a difference there. Looking at the illuminated area, I am not sure there is a discernable difference between and an Elite and an ISF unlocked KRP.

I do see a difference between my 500M and 600M. The 500M has better black levels but you need a dark room to see them and the 500M has better contrast, as less ABL effects. I am not sure if that is a 50 due to the size difference or some improvement to the 9.5 panel. All moot now though.

- Rich
post #14423 of 14945
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Well, the whole hand-picked glass thing is probably an urban myth....

It is not and was actually done.
post #14424 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

It is not and was actually done.

I imagine so...the DSE plagued glass on my 6020 was surely not up to Elite standards...lol
post #14425 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

I imagine so...the DSE plagued glass on my 6020 was surely not up to Elite standards...lol

Never noticed DSE on my 5020.
post #14426 of 14945
But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist...I've noticed it on 3 separate Kuro panels.
post #14427 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist...I've noticed it on 3 separate Kuro panels.

Has anyone confirmed the existence of DSE (dirty screen effect) and the cause? I have personally never seen it on any set. It seems from reading posts that some people never see it and some see it to some degree on all sets.

Can it be replicated in test patterns? I sometimes wonder if it could possible be processing errors in the signal or source related.

barry
post #14428 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by blb1215 View Post

Has anyone confirmed the existence of DSE (dirty screen effect) and the cause? I have personally never seen it on any set. It seems from reading posts that some people never see it and some see it to some degree on all sets.

Can it be replicated in test patterns? I sometimes wonder if it could possible be processing errors in the signal or source related.

barry

It is NOT source related..it is there all the time whether watching blu-rays or cable or whatever. You'd have to be blind to not be able to see it. VERY noticeable on vertical pans over solid light colored areas like a sky or wall. As to how many sets are afflicted I have no idea. I bought mine used so I was stuck with it. Had I purchased new it would have been returned.
post #14429 of 14945
I have several of the now difficult to find Elite I/O boards for sale. This is the board that turns your 9G Non-Elite into an E-Lite. PM me if you are interested in a price.
post #14430 of 14945
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

It is NOT source related..it is there all the time whether watching blu-rays or cable or whatever. You'd have to be blind to not be able to see it. VERY noticeable on vertical pans over solid light colored areas like a sky or wall. As to how many sets are afflicted I have no idea. I bought mine used so I was stuck with it. Had I purchased new it would have been returned.

Has anyone determined what the root cause of this is?

barry
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