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The Official Pioneer 9G non-Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 496

post #14851 of 14941
PG_Ice

Don't piss around tweaking voltages for the red tint - it is just the start of future trouble for future algorithms.

If you want to properly fix it you need to do a factory reset/clearance. After that it is very simple to tweak the voltages, then all you have to do is leave it alone except for usual calibration, and use it as a normal television instead. It is in the Pioneer service manuals that accurate voltage adjustments (cannot) be performed without clearing the meters first. So save yourself a lot of time and anguish and do it the correct way.

Also you will get the stock black levels again that you don't have anything like at the moment on your LX5090.

Regarding the ABL stuff - you could raise but do you really want to ?. Movie mode at 40 is 40FTL. ISF modes go much higher. It could be that you are just to used to LCD light output - that will pass. If you have them side by side, why not bring the LCD's contrast into line with the Plasma. If i'm watching broadcast i use Movie mode - in low ambient light i now never have it any higher contrast than 21. In blackout room at night Sometimes contrast as low as 13/14 or 15. I think about 17FTL.

Standard or User mode is about 52FTL at contrast 40.

Anyway i'm not sure, but the ABL on the KRP Monitor doesn't seem as aggressive as it did on the KRP tv. But i don't use much more than 28/32 ftl nowadays anyway, as long as sunlight isn't directed on screen it looks bright enough to me even in a bright room.

I like whites on clothes and other objects to look 'correct' (as what it would look like if the person in the screen was sitting directly across from me in the actual room). I'm 'only' 35, but i'm becoming an increasingly picky/perfectionist in my old age.

;-)

Anyway you risk breaking/straining the tv, because if you raise ABL, you are supposed to lower VOL SUS driving voltage, and the other way about
Edited by Stu03 - 11/25/13 at 8:05am
post #14852 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

PG_Ice

Don't piss around tweaking voltages for the red tint - it is just the start of future trouble for future algorithms.

yes you are true
check PM
i need some help here smile.gif
post #14853 of 14941
I just became an owner of a 6090 and this is my first plasma, ever, after a quite few years in the SXRD land. Few questions have risen after few days of use:

Has anyone had any issues with a HDMI switch with these sets? For the life of me I can't get my set-top box, PS3 and Xbox360 to go through the Monoprice 4x1 switch (rev 2.0 with optical audio out). Any help would be appreciated. The same switch performed well with my old Sony SXRD rear projection set.

I'm also using a HTPC for most of my media consumption and am now running into a refresh rate problem. I have the 6090 connected to a Radeon HD5850 via HDMI cable, outputting RGB. The connection get's recognized as PC and the highest refresh rate available is 60hz. I tried using 4:4:4 to see if this would get detected as "not PC", but the picture gets a pink tint and is still locked to a maximum of 60hz. Is there a workaround for the refresh rate when using a PC? I have access to a wide variety of display adapters and can try different configurations. My next idea was to try a late Nvidia low-power card with HDMI and see if I can get that to work with 4:4:4 and get it recognized as something else.

One idea that I had was to use Xbox One as my main connection and plug all the rest of the consoles to the Monoprice hub and pipe everything through the One smile.gif But that is a last resort anyways since I like the idea of having calibration settings per input.

Other than that, using a i1 calibrator for the PC produced a very, very, nice and deep image and I'm pleasantly surprised about the quality of the unit.
post #14854 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by dea View Post

I'm also using a HTPC for most of my media consumption and am now running into a refresh rate problem. I have the 6090 connected to a Radeon HD5850 via HDMI cable, outputting RGB. The connection get's recognized as PC and the highest refresh rate available is 60hz.

According to the KRP manual, the acceptable input frequencies for 1080P over DVI and HDMI are 24, 50, and 60 Hz. So unless the 6090 input frequencies are expected to be different than the KRP-500/600M, this is normal.
post #14855 of 14941
thanks to Stu03 and Turbe with Controlcal i now have a new kuro!

those 19000+ hours is gone wink.gif
(from the ad for the LX5090.."barely used Kuro!"..yeah right...those hours must be a record?)
11 hours/day average for 5 years!

anyway
i have done a reset now and no major artifacts on the screen.
so the conclusion is..Pioneer knows how to make quality components that lasts forever.

the blacks is pure black now!
its crazy

before i started all this tweaking i had some red tint and the blacks was bad around 0.011Y
first i just tweaked YKNOFSAD from default 128 to 90
the red tint disappeared and the blacks was way better at 0.002Y

one question
how low can i1 Display Pro III meter read? wink.gif

after i did the reset now i dont get any reading with the ansi checkboard
so the blacks went down further after the reset!
it must be lower than 0.002Y

as i said crazy!

i also use the ISFccc profiles and at 150cd/m2 (contrast at 40) i can now get a near flat gamma curve.
that was impossible before as the whites was clipping at that contrast.

the picture now is the best i have ever seen on a display!

well
i will not stop there
the next goal is to higher ABL some smile.gif
Edited by pg_ice - 11/26/13 at 11:29pm
post #14856 of 14941
"Barely used" eek.gif

Anyway great your Kuro is 'KURO' again
post #14857 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post

According to the KRP manual, the acceptable input frequencies for 1080P over DVI and HDMI are 24, 50, and 60 Hz. So unless the 6090 input frequencies are expected to be different than the KRP-500/600M, this is normal.

Thanks for that info! The thing is, when I input a signal from, for example, a PS3 , the refresh rate is not displayed in the upper right corner as it is when I input an image from a PC (60Hz) and the screen doesn't produce the similar flickering as it does on PC input. Basically I'm after a signal type that can be fed in from a PC via HDMI that produces similar pleasant and flicker free image as I can get from my other HDMI sources. The set should do 72Hz with 24hz/fps input, but this doesn't work with PC based HDMI input at least.

Do we know how the set recognizes the HDMI signal as PC?
post #14858 of 14941
Stu03
Make a guide man and put the workflow as i have done from your suggestions!

i dont think many with old untouched kuros knows how they "should" look like
also i dont think many knows what a flat gamma curve does to the overall picture quality.
you dont get that without the ISFccc profiles.
its like night and day

the picture is now even better after the reset when i did the final adjustments to the VOL SUS YKNOFS1D YKNOFS3D YKNOFSAD values
even higher brighness with less abl
picture seems to hold a higher brightness longer until the abl kicks in.
the result is a more even picture that dims less

The tv now looks like a window! smile.gif
the picture is so deep that you think its 3d you are watching.
even in a high lit room it kicks ass now with a brightness of 165cd/m2 as i use now
(contrast at 40)

Do i need an OLED tv now ?
hell no! wink.gif
this Kuro is going with me to the grave


im so glad smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif
Im going to sell my Sony W9 right now!

here is my W9 btw
not bad.....until wink.gif

if i get a dslr camera again i will take a picture of the Kuro at the same scene
Edited by pg_ice - 11/27/13 at 9:43am
post #14859 of 14941
Quote:

Thanks man! I've been looking for Kuro demo discs forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dea View Post

Thanks for that info! The thing is, when I input a signal from, for example, a PS3 , the refresh rate is not displayed in the upper right corner as it is when I input an image from a PC (60Hz) and the screen doesn't produce the similar flickering as it does on PC input. Basically I'm after a signal type that can be fed in from a PC via HDMI that produces similar pleasant and flicker free image as I can get from my other HDMI sources. The set should do 72Hz with 24hz/fps input, but this doesn't work with PC based HDMI input at least.

Do we know how the set recognizes the HDMI signal as PC?

On my KRP I use the remote to go into the menu, select Inputs, and I have the choice to define "Signal Type" as either PC or Video.

The PC shouldn't flicker at all. I used to have a Windows Media Center PC and set output to 1080P 60Hz. It looked great.
post #14860 of 14941
pg_ice in my estimation that is approximately 50FTL. Plenty bright enough - too much for me, it would sizzle my eyes eek.gif but good i guess, if used to an LCD.

Wouldn't it be worth keeping the LCD for say another room or something ?...

Hopefully see some pictures on the official Pioneer Kuro pictures thread soon of your 5090H...

Don't worry about a camera - some (like me) use mobile/cell phones for taking pictures of our Kuro's lol. Even with mobile phones, with the strong image of the Pio's it's still relatively simple to get the idea wink.gif
post #14861 of 14941
your right about the brightness
i think i have to rethink here.
the Kuro is alot brighter than my Sony W9 at the same peak light.
or its a result of the amazing microcontrast and now the tweaked ABL that makes the screen of the Kuro pop more.

i was calibrating my ISF night profile yesterday with a goal of 120cd/m2
thats almost to bright for low ambientlight viewing
i think i will go down to about 100cd/m2


i have one question:
Does anyone knows if you can turn on the FANS or check them if they are working?
i have looked in the service manual for a rs232 command but i dont find one.
my temp is low about 48 degrees but from the service manual the fans should already have been started at that point?
or am i wrong?

the best thing would be if i can control the rpm of the fans manually
i dont mind having them on at a low rpm all the time.

the fans seems to use 12v as on my computer
maybe i will hook them up to my fancontrol on my PC and control them from there.

i removed the backplate today and man that was some dust in there smile.gif
its now clean smile.gif

ohh one more question
where is the tempsensor located?


and here are my calibrated results for ISF Day and Night
i will leave it here
work done smile.gif




Edited by pg_ice - 11/29/13 at 1:16pm
post #14862 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_ice View Post

your right about the brightness
i think i have to rethink here.
the Kuro is alot brighter than my Sony W9 at the same peak light.
or its a result of the amazing microcontrast and now the tweaked ABL that makes the screen of the Kuro pop more.

i was calibrating my ISF night profile yesterday with a goal of 120cd/m2
thats almost to bright for low ambientlight viewing
i think i will go down to about 100cd/m2


i have one question:
Does anyone knows if you can turn on the FANS or check them if they are working?
i have looked in the service manual for a rs232 command but i dont find one.
my temp is low about 48 degrees but from the service manual the fans should already have been started at that point?
or am i wrong?

the best thing would be if i can control the rpm of the fans manually
i dont mind having them on at a low rpm all the time.

the fans seems to use 12v as on my computer
maybe i will hook them up to my fancontrol on my PC and control them from there.

i removed the backplate today and man that was some dust in there smile.gif
its now clean smile.gif

ohh one more question
where is the tempsensor located?


and here are my calibrated results for ISF Day and Night
i will leave it here
work done smile.gif




Cool pic and charts smile.gif

Was there lots of dust around the components ?

Certainly looks clean now anyway and the components are looking good considering it's done 19,000 + hours.

I can't remember anyone ever reporting the fans on the tv's coming on automatically, maybe someone here has ?

The monitor's fans need to be manually activated on and off in the Integrator menu's.
post #14863 of 14941
lots of dust
most to the left board when you look at the pic.

i made a few adjustments to the ISFccc Day profile before the "meltdown of the Kuro". wink.gif

i think you could go over 200cd/m2 if you have the guts
but im verry happy with these results
didnt think it could go this high with a flat gamma curve.





(btw this is with contrast at 40 and some other tweaks wink.gif)
Edited by pg_ice - 11/30/13 at 7:59am
post #14864 of 14941
Hi all, D-nice calibrated my set in April 09, I posted the results here post #10835, the pic seems a little washed out on all the different modes, sports, normal etc., After a d -nice calibration or any [professionals are the settings locked out for the end user(Me). If I was to attempt to change any sports settings, etc. would that throw off D Nices adjustments? Also lets say I'm in sports mode and hit reset will that reset all the different formats?

Also when you get movie calibrated does that change the other formats as well? I

I have pmed D-Nice a couple of times and no response. Any advise please.

Thanks.

R

Here are my Pioneer+PDP-6020FD+Post+Calibration+Forum+Report+(Movie).pdf 197k .pdf file after that D Nice did.
post #14865 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by roth79 View Post

Hi all, D-nice calibrated my set in April 09, I posted the results here post #10835, the pic seems a little washed out on all the different modes, sports, normal etc., After a d -nice calibration or any [professionals are the settings locked out for the end user(Me). If I was to attempt to change any sports settings, etc. would that throw off D Nices adjustments? Also lets say I'm in sports mode and hit reset will that reset all the different formats?

Also when you get movie calibrated does that change the other formats as well? I

I have pmed D-Nice a couple of times and no response. Any advise please.
I don't think D-Nice does PMs. Try email.

hx81uu.jpg
post #14866 of 14941
Thanks HT, I juts sent him an e mail.
Does any of the pro calibrators here know the answer, if you have a calibration done does it lock the settings down so the end user (Homeowner) cant make changes?

Thanks,

R
post #14867 of 14941
I'm not a pro calibrator far from it but i do know that you won't have to worry about losing your settings if having a pro cal. An ISF calibration is locked in/down. It will be in your AV presets menu along with the others but it won't be highlighted.

The other AV presets like you mentioned can be reset yes regardless of the calibration previously. If these presets are beginning to look washed out a touch it is perfectly normal after a long time or five years in your case which is a long time for calibration settings to 'drift'. As the phosphors age the three primaries (RGB) need bringing back into line now and again after thousands and thousands of hours. Normal operation most of the time.

In pro situations or similar (grading etc) plasmas need touching up every few hundred hours afaik, just to make sure everything is A1.

I'm not familiar with the /20FD's...But know it has limited user picture controls in comparison to the other 9G's. Perhaps in the meantime you could check or change your video output levels (RGB 16-255 or RGB 0-255) and see if that helps... But like i say i don't know/can't remember if the 6020 has that user menu option off hand
Edited by Stu03 - 12/3/13 at 7:28am
post #14868 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by roth79 View Post

Thanks HT, I juts sent him an e mail.
Does any of the pro calibrators here know the answer, if you have a calibration done does it lock the settings down so the end user (Homeowner) cant make changes?

You can't edit the ISFCC settings accidentally, but that doesn't mean you can't lose the settings. I recall someone had his surge protector pop its breaker and when he next turned his TV on, all the ISFCC calibrated settings were gone. Also I recall some people having lost their settings for no discernible reason at all.

So regardless of the answer to your question, I'd make sure you record the calibrated settings such that if you ever lose them, you can plug them right back in. Kuro Reader can read the settings.
post #14869 of 14941
Thanks Stu and Action, its a 6020 so reading and plugging them back in is not an option from what I'm reading, but I will tell you that all the settings look washed out to me, its driving me crazy. I don't have it on daily and don't know what my hours are but its not many as its in a media room that I don't use often anymore. I have played with adjustments of what little I can with a 6020 but looks washed out, optimum gives it a little boost but still looks dull. I don't even know if its worth getting recalibrated by someone but bothering the hell out of me.

I have not heard back from D nice, I guess he's real busy.

Thanks again for the responses.
post #14870 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by roth79 View Post

but I will tell you that all the settings look washed out to me, its driving me crazy.

washed out=low dynamic range
then the question is
how black is the blacks and how white is the whites ?
some of them must fail here.

or it could be that you have powersaving on or have changed gamma on all settings?
do you have some direct light hitting the screen?
how black does the screen look when its turned off?

download the avshd709 disc as mp4 and run them on your blu ray player
http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration
start with the basic settings and check the blacklevel with the black clipping file
then check the whites with the apl clipping file
Edited by pg_ice - 12/5/13 at 8:14am
post #14871 of 14941
Powersavings is not on I did check that, I will try the disc this weekend and see what it does. It does get some sun but I close blinds when Im in there, It also looks black when off!

Thanks for your advise.
post #14872 of 14941
Problem!

i found that the ISFccc day profile looked more calm than the ISFccc Night mode.
now i know why
i looked closer at the display and there is alot less dithering/noise with the Day profile.

its a big difference
white with the day profile has almost no dithering at all
also some colors have less like Red and Yellow.

i have tried to match the less dithering with the night profile by changing the white ballance but i cant get the same result.
sure it is depending on white ballance
i can see that the noise reduces and increases when i change it.

is it something else that i have missed?
i have almost the same settings on both.
something else must be different.

can it be that a higher contrast setting reduces the Dithering?
i just need to test it... smile.gif
Edited by pg_ice - 12/5/13 at 12:09pm
post #14873 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_ice View Post

Problem!

i found that the ISFccc day profile looked more calm than the ISFccc Night mode.
now i know why
i looked closer at the display and there is alot less dithering/noise with the Day profile.

its a big difference
white with the day profile has almost no dithering at all
also some colors have less like Red and Yellow.

i have tried to match the less dithering with the night profile by changing the white ballance but i cant get the same result.
sure it is depending on white ballance
i can see that the noise reduces and increases when i change it.

is it something else that i have missed?
i have almost the same settings on both.
something else must be different.

can it be that a higher contrast setting reduces the Dithering?
i just need to test it... smile.gif

Remember that the panel has started again so patience is needed with calibration imo. I wouldn't worry hugely about calibration until about 100hrs.


When you max the light output on the 5090H how is the low end of the greyscale by eye or by measurements ?
post #14874 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

When you max the light output on the 5090H how is the low end of the greyscale by eye or by measurements ?

clean as an LCD wink.gif
no noise or anything
how it measures can you see in the charts above.

i got some tips from Turbe that im going to try out

Edit:
more tests done
the only way to get rid of the dithering is ro raise contrast.
thats bad.
i wonder why
Edited by pg_ice - 12/5/13 at 2:35pm
post #14875 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by roth79 View Post

Thanks Stu and Action, its a 6020 so reading and plugging them back in is not an option from what I'm reading

Sorry, I meant KuroControl. That should work with a 6020. Kuro Reader is read-only anyway.
post #14876 of 14941
can someone do me a favor

put up a 100% white window
set the contrast low at about 25

stand close so you see the dithering
raise the contrast and watch how the Dithering changes and should ( if my screen is ok) disappear at around contrast 40.

you may also find steps that the dithering is less and then raises the next step

post a comment how the dithering changes on your kuro

Edit: this testing lol
do the test if you want but i found just ONE point where the dithering was completely gone.
contrast at 30 no Dithering/PWM noise! so i will use that for ISF Night
its about 116cd/m2 so its great.

this was strange
Edited by pg_ice - 12/6/13 at 7:48pm
post #14877 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_ice View Post

can someone do me a favor

put up a 100% white window
set the contrast low at about 25

stand close so you see the dithering
raise the contrast and watch how the Dithering changes and should ( if my screen is ok) disappear at around contrast 40.

you may also find steps that the dithering is less and then raises the next step

post a comment how the dithering changes on your kuro

Edit: this testing lol
do the test if you want but i found just ONE point where the dithering was completely gone.
contrast at 30 no dithering! so i will use that for ISF Night
its about 116cd/m2 so its great.

this was strange

I'm not sure what you mean by dithering. Dithering is a method of processing an image such that a smaller number of available colors can look more smooth as if you had a larger number of colors available. This is most noticeable with gradients where you end up with banding when you don't have enough colors. Dithering can smooth out that banding by blending in alternating pixels of similar color.

If you put up a 100% white window, then there is only one color and dithering doesn't make any sense.

Depending on the size of the white window, some artificial and undesirable effects will kick in such as the voltage and brightness limiter, but I don't think that's what you are seeing either because I wouldn't guess that those would turn off at one particular contrast setting like you observed.

Can you try to visually describe what it is when you say dithering?

Regardless, I will try to fulfill your request and follow these same steps on my TV.
post #14878 of 14941
He's most likely referring to PWM noise (oftentimes referenced as dithering), manifesting as tiny moving particles blanketing the entire screen.
post #14879 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

He's most likely referring to PWM noise (oftentimes referenced as dithering), manifesting as tiny moving particles blanketing the entire screen.

lol this thread is dead.
has everyone of you bought a crappy Panasonic plasma wink.gif?
yes thats PWM Noise= Dancing Pixels.

im going to put the question in another forum.
i need an answer.
Edited by pg_ice - 12/7/13 at 12:15am
post #14880 of 14941
I sold my calibrated 111FD for a ZT60. My living arrangements for the last 2 years call for BIG. Call me stupid, crazy, or blind (or all 3?), but I had them side-by-side before selling the former and the differences were so tiny as to be inconsequential. I'm in the minority in these Kuro threads. Most of the others have retained theirs.
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