The Official Pioneer 9G non-Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 90

Funny...I found something similar with the Channel Favorites. If AV Audio is on, pressing the enter does not seem to display the list of Favorites...when off, pressing the enter brings up the list where you can navigate to one of the fav channels and switch to it. I thought it was odd.

Has anyone else found that start up time for these sets is fairly long?

I'm setting up my Harmony remote finally and I've found that it takes around 10 seconds from the time I press power to the time I can change the input.

Edit: I had to program in an 18 second delay to get the input to switch.

Hey guys, I am a hardcore gamer, and I was wondering whether the 9g Kuro has any noticeable lag compared to a CRT. I really notice lag and it sometimes makes my game unplayable. Is the lag more or less than other flat panels?

I don't think anyone has really done a side-by-side test where you run a timer on both the tv and your pc to compute the absolute lag time. I'd love to see someone do that test, and do it in a couple different modes along with the different Pure Cinema options.

I know there is a bit of lag, but so far when gaming it doesn't seem to affect me. In fact I can get more headshots when playing Gears of War compared to my old 34" tv... I guess because the heads are easier to see now :-)

Yes... you are missing something.

Sounds like the the cable box is set to 0IRE instead of 7.5IRE and the Blu-ray player is set to output digital values of 16-235.

Your choices are to make a setting change on the cable box to make it output 7.5IRE OR change the Blu-ray player to output RGB in PC mode which will have 0-255 for digital values.

That said... if you have a new video display, it's time to upgrade from an analog cable box to digital HD cable anyway and that will likely solve the problem also. Analog cable has grossly poor image quality and terrible sound.

Ok, so I am interested enough in the lag topic that I decided to pull out my camera, laptop cables, and download a trial copy of virtual stopwatch pro.

My laptop only has s-video and vga outputs, so I tested these. I would really like to see someone do this test using HDMI to see how it rates since I did find a difference in lag between s-video and vga (vga was better), so I wonder if HDMI would also outperform s-video.

I took 3 pictures for each test, and have posted all 3 results. Results are in milliseconds.

First I did a "baseline" test using s-video to my old Sony XBR960 HDTV: 30, 30, 31. This tv upconverts everything to 1080i, so it's not surprising it has a bit of lag via s-video input.

6020 in movie mode, cinema mode advanced: 62, 70, 76
6020 in movie mode, cinema mode off: 70, 70, 72
6020 in game mode, cinema mode off: 71, 70, 83
6020 in pc mode via vga connection: 50, 57?, 41

There's a question mark on one of the pc pics since I couldn't read the numbers well enough, but as you can see it knocks around 20 ms off the lag. I may decide to buy a VGA cable for my xbox 360 due to this, although again I really would like to know how a hdmi or component connection would fare lag-wise?

So far I have been playing games in movie mode, advanced. Haven't really noticed an extra 40 ms of lag compared to my old TV. Maybe slightly, but that could be my imagination. My xbox is connected via component, so quite possibly this has less lag than s-video.

We need more tests! Anyone with a pc or laptop with hdmi output should do this test please, thanks.

Important update: ignore my s-video lag results posted above.

I was thinking about my previous results, and remembered that my XBR960 can also show 480i natively, so it should be showing s-video from my laptop non-upconverted, and therefore there should be little to no lag. This made me suspect my laptop's s-video output may be lagged itself behind my laptop's lcd display.

So I took my laptop and camera upstairs where we have a very old Sony 27" non-HDTV CRT. There should be absolutely no processing or lag going on with this old tv when fed with s-video. But when I tested it, I also am showing up to 30ms of lag (I get variable between 20 and 30ms).

So basically all of the s-video results on my 6020 and XBR960 should be lowered by this amount of ms... this would put the lag performance basically on par with what I measured using the vga connection to my 6020: between 41 and 57 ms, with the average slightly below 50. So there probably isn't a real world difference in lag between the vga and non-vga inputs on the 6020.

45 to 55 ms isn't horrible lag, so I am relatively happy with this aspect of my 6020. Still hope someone can test some hdmi.

Guys,

I have been getting alot of PM's from people who are stuck between the non-elite (5020/6020) and the Elites (PRO-111FD / PRO-151FD).

This is because I have had the PDP-6020FD for about a month or so and decided to sell it and buy an elite Pro-151FD.

The PM's I get are all about the same. What are the differences, and is it worth it.

I have compiled the list of differences (settings / features).
(I probably have forgotten a few things so please let me know and I will add it to the list if I did.)


So here is my answer:

Elite (111/151 OR 5020/6020)?????

It depends on what kind of person you are really to choose between the elite and 6020.

If you want the best color accuracy possible and like to have a number of settings at your disposal, then the elite is for you.

If you are the type of person who wants great color depth, black levels, contrast, not the best color accuracy (but very good),etc. and doesn't place alot of importance in being able to tweak the set to perfection, then the non-elite is for you.

If you think that you may be one of those who doesn't really want to dial in the picture and will use optimum mode most of the time, Then go with the non-elite.
IMO, If you are going to use optimum mode as your main setting then you do not need the elite because the non-elite also has it (just without the color sensor).

Here are the settings/features the Elites (111/151) have:
Settings:

1. Brighness
2. Sharpness
3. Color
4. Contrast
5. Tint
6. A/V selection (Optimum/Performance/PURE/Movie/Sport/Game/Standard)
7. Pure cinema selection (Film mode ON/OFF, Text optimization ON/OFF)
8. Intelligent mode (OFF / MODE1 / MODE2)
9. DRE (Off / HIGH / MID / LOW)
10. BLK LVL (ON / OFF)
11. ACL (ON / OFF)
12. Enhanser mode (1 / 2 / 3)
13. GAMMA selection (1 / 2 / 3)
14. Color temp (Manual/LOW/Mid-LOW/Mid/Mid-High/High)
15. CTI (ON / OFF)
16. Color management (R / Y / G / C / B / M)
17. Color space (1 / 2)
18. 3DNR (OFF / HIGH / MID / LOW)
19. Field NR (OFF / HIGH / MID / LOW)
20. Block NR (ON / OFF)
21. Mosquito NR (OFF / ON)

Features:

1. Color sensor (not availible with non-elites)
2. Backlit remote (not availible with non-elites. But you can order the 151 remote from Pioneer and use it on your 6020)
3. Elite color filter. (not availible with non-elites)



Here are the Features/Settings the non-elites (5020/6020) have:
1. Brighness
2. Sharpness
3. Color
4. Contrast
5. Tint
6. A/V selection (Optimum/Performance/Movie/Sport/Game/Standard/NO PURE MODE)
7. Pure cinema selection (Film mode ON/OFF, Text optimization ON/OFF)


So the big question is does the 6020 have enough settings/features for you?

Either way you go you will have an awesome set.
The 6020 is beyond words, but the elite breaks all boudaries IMO.


So it is really up to you if the price difference is worth it. In my case it was.

-Hope this helps you. Let me know if you want more info!

-Chadmak09

thanks for the input doug, however i was told that we should not have the ps3 on the PC type output 0-255. in that case it should be set to limited. second my p.o.s. cable box does not have any type of settings like that.

I'm considering both the 5020 and the 6020. Can anyone tell me the size of the pictures in the 2-screen mode? Might make the difference on which model I pick.

I did a little searching and apparently on the 8g Kuros there is a "Game Control Pref" in addition to the Game AV mode. Setting this Pref to "on" reduces the lag from mid-50's (like I just measured today on my 6020) to around 12 ms.

So, umm, it would really be nice if this can be turned on in the service mode settings on the 6020. Or something equivalent. Do the 9g elites have this setting in the menus? I don't see it on Chad's list above.

EDIT: someone pointed out to me that this Pref option is available. You have to be in the Game AV mode, and then go find it in the Options (not in the Picture settings). I'll post lag results from this later tonight.

One other note for anyone testing HDMI lag. Make sure to use dot-by-dot mode and try to output a 1080p signal if you can. This would be the lowest lag setup I can think of.

I see. Waiting is the tricky part, as in how long to wait.

I have to say I'm personally glad I waited and didn't pull the trigger on a Kuro 60" elite less than a year ago at the market price. I now have a 70" LCoS which is performing excellently and a 60" Kuro 6020 which is just gorgeous to my eyes, particular on HD material and both for less than what was the asking price for one Kuro elite alone a short time ago! Much less.

The current frequent pricing drops in the HDTV industry and the intense competition make me wonder what the pricing will be for the same or better peformance as a current Pio Elite in the next year or two going into the 10g and then 11g Pioneer/Panasonic models? Having a really great set now at a great value can make it easier to wait.


Looking at The Orphanage blur-ray on the 6020 right now I think I'm already at the limit of what I can see in PQ. Even still I just picked up a couple of calibration disks so I guess I'm at obsessive too.


The value question is very subjective since $1,300 is different things to different people. When I was ready to buy the difference was even more than $1,300 thanks to Pioneer's policy in limiting the distance for online elite sales.


Looking at the 6020 right next to a calibrated hdtv I know I can live with a full grayscale calibration at the current Color Points. On the otherhand I'd certainly contribute to the D-nice fund if he finds and delivers even more adjustments. I think I've got a $1 lying around somewhere...

I must definately belong in the non-Elite camp, as I'm really happy with my 6020. I didn't have the break-in DVD so I watched every disc in my collection using D-Nice's settings, and thought they all looked great. Got the Direct TV hooked up yesterday, and 've been watching all the sports I can, and they look great.

Personally, I can't see how I could adjust it to make it look better. Red Sox uniforms are brillantly white, all the different players look absolutley natural, and you can count the blades of grass behind the pitcher's mound.

So, from my perspective, I think people would do themselves a favor and look carefully at the non-elites for a great picture and very satisfying viewing experience.


I would really like to hear from people as to how they use the other picture settings that are available.

Gary

Forgive me for posting this here, but the 9G threads are getting all the love these days, and D-Nice never visits the 8G thread anymore, so:

Quick question concerning pure cinema. It is my understanding this feature chooses the programming the plasma uses for deinterlacing incoming signals. The plasma is supposed to recognize a progressive signal and not apply processing correct? I have also read that sometimes this doesn't work, as the plasma "sticks" with whatever was set, even if you switch channels to another input resolution where the plasma is supposed to "grey out" the choice. Additionally, I think I have read that Pioneer fixed this issue on later manufactured date 8Gs, is this correct also? (my 5010 was made in 04/08) My main question is this, since I don't watch SD tv now that DTV has increased their HD channels, and I get all 4 major networks plus public television in HD via over the air, and I send the set an upscaled 1080P 60 signal from my OPPO 983, what happens to 1080i signals if I turn the pure cinema off? Does the plasma still deinterlace it and convert to 1080P? If so, what algorithm is it using, standard? advanced? Because of the chance for things to still get processed, even though they are not supposed to (720P 60 and 1080P 60 signals), I am contemplating leaving pure cinema off. This assumes 1080i is handled properly. Time for the gurus to come out and enlighten me :-)

John

Ok, excellent news on the lag front. I just re-tested the s-video input on my 6020 in game mode, with the game control option set to ON this time.

This time the lag measured as just 30 ms instead of the 70 range last time. Furthermore, keep in mind that 30 is the same I measured when I tested my two CRT televisions, so basically with the game control option set to ON the 6020 appears to have zero lag. The 30 ms is just some delay that my laptop inserts when outputting s-video.

I could actually feel the difference just now switching back and forth between the game control on and off in Gears of War. Aiming a gun feels "soupy" and less accurate with the control off. With it on it feels just like my old Sony CRT.

Too bad this option is limited to Game mode though. Even using D-Nice's Game mode-specific settings, the picture isn't quite as good as in Movie mode to my eye.

Thanks for researching that question. Very nice to know and excellent performance indeed on input lag response for the 6020.

I understand that it's strictly your stated preference on what looks good but I must say I do see things different however as far as Movie Mode and Video games.

One has to consider that much of the entire science and approach of ISF calibration along with it's low temp based viewing is based around NTSF standards particularly as applied to the video production standards & presentation used in Movie Films. In general you can't even guarantee that all filmakers adhere strictly to these standards let alone all video content producers such as television etc. or interactive video game developers.

This is alluded to also in the fact that most manufacturers call this style of video settings "Movie Mode" or "Cinema Mode" etc. Video games vary greatly among themselves and are often very different on all accounts from film based movies in thier use of color and intended presentation.

That's not to say that video games cannot look good in a film biased type of calibration but there is no reason to believe that the beauty of video games are optimized by this setting.

Some games may look quite good with an ISF calibrated type setting (but also can look good in other A/V settings) but some types of games are downright detracted from IMO by an ISF calibrated style setting. Some games for instance are designed and intended to be bright, punchy and even highly saturated and in the end isn't the goal of calibration to display what the designer intended as accurately as possible.

Hey guys,
I posted this in the Onkyo section as well, but thought it might be a TV related problem also, so I'm posting it here too.

First off I apologize if this is a noob question, but...well, I am a noob

I am pretty sure there is a VERY simple step I am missing but...here goes.

I have a TX-SR606 (not sure if there is a thread dedicated to the 606, but I think it's similar enough to the 605), a Pioneer PDP5020, and recently purchased an X-Box360.

Before i got the x-box, all my devices were hooked up via component (DVD and Cable Box) cable because a friend had some spares and donated them to the cause. Everything was working fine. When I got the x-box the other day, I decided to use the HDMI cable it came with and run it to the receiver. (So HDMI from x-box to receiver, and component from receiver to TV)

When I turned the x-box on, I heard the sound, but no video was going to the TV. So my first thought was that if I use HDMI in, it may have to go out through HDMI to the TV? (this seemed kinda dumb, but who knows. If not, maybe there is an option to tell the receiver to take the HDMI in and send out over component? I would have thought it would notice that there was no HDMI going out to the TV and just use the component but...)

So I then borrowed another HDMI cable from my friend and tried to connect the TV to the receiver via HDMI. But now when I select the input on the TV that correlates to the HDMI port used, all I get is static. (This is when the x-box is turned on. When it is turned off, it goes black, so I know it is trying to do something).

X-box is going to the HDMI IN labled game, and I made sure the receiver was set to that port. I also clicked setup and tried to assign it to that port like the manual says, but it didnt seem to do anything.

Is this a set-up issue on the receiver?
A set-up issue on the TV?
Or a possible defect of some sort?

Again, sorry for the dumb question...I just wanna play some x-box!!!

Oh, and I should note that when I connected the x-box via component and returned the TV to component, everything worked fine. (but I dont have enough component ports to be running everything that way, so this HDMI issue will have to be solved soon)

Thanks

....pation.

Hi all and Thanks for any advise in advance. I guess I'm coming to the all knowing AVS forum with hat in hand and hopefully not head up a$$.

So, I've read most of the Burn In Thread stuff, downloaded the Break In DVD and hope I have a clue as to knowing how not to screw up my first plasma tv. But am looking for some last minute advise.

The Plan:
Set D-Nice's settings and run the Break in DVD all afternoon.
Watch a little TV with the same settings...I have major ADD so no worries about having it on one channel for more than a couple minutes.

Q1: Can I use these settings to watch TV or do I need some other setting? The instructions with the Break In DVD says NOT to use these settings with anything else. The Hun's post in "the official 5020/6020 display settings thread says to use the same settings

Run the Break in DVD all night/next afternoon while at work...repeat until I hit 150 then enjoy the $hit out of my new TV.

Q2: I am absolutely going to HAVE to play some Xbox Live on this thing. 1 hour per day isn't going to goober the screen is it? I read the CNET article about pixel shift and think I can turn off the minimap, etc. on the game.

Thanks again for your assistance.

Is there any Zoom mode which does not distort the aspect ratio for HD content? While my TV (6020) is new and within the first 200 hours of operation, I would prefer to zoom my movie content (mostly what I watch) so that there are no black bars above and below. The "zoom" mode distorts the picture (everyone is tall and skinny) and the "wide" modes leave the black bars. I find it hard to believe there isn't a zoom mode that doesn't distort the picture, am I missing something obvious?

I think your problem is your ADD.

What does Hun know about this issue?

The break-in settings should NEVER be used with anything but the break-in DVD. That's according to D-Nice who posted the break-in settings in the first place.

It sounds like you have some kind of setting problem in your Xbox or A/V receiver. It's also possible that your friends spare HDMI cable is defective.

Do you have any HDMI capable components other than the Xbox?

I've played around 4 hours a night GTA IV and Gears of War on my 6020 since the first night I got it, and no problems. I was using Movie mode w/ D-Nice's movie mode settings, but now with my lag tested I have moved to Game AV mode w/ the game control pref option turned on. Anyway, I never saw any IR. This was using the Auto screen size which seems to default to Full mode. I would definitely not use dot-by-dot unless you switch on orbiter mode 2 (but then what's the point? you aren't seeing dot-by-dot anymore).

When not gaming in the first couple weeks I was either running the break-in images using the break-in picture settings, or was watching mostly full screen video in movie mode. I did also watch a handful of 2.35 blu-ray movies, also with no ill effects.

Out of the first 2 weeks I only saw one case of IR and that was after watching a show on USA HD where in the bottom left they had running some fixed text explaining to me that I was watching a NEW EPISODE. As if I didn't know :-) Anyway that IR went away in just a few minutes, and since then hasn't come back even when watching more USA HD with similar text.

Basically there doesn't seem to be any need to worry about IR on the 9Gs, even when gaming with static HUDs.

I've had no problem playing Call of Duty 4, Gears of War, GTA 4, Metal Gear Solid 4, among several other games since I got my 9G Pioneer. I did go through the break-in process, but even then, I only did that while I slept and during the day/night had normal content going.

I'm not going to be dumb about leaving stuff on the same screen for very long more than 5-10 minutes, but I also don't feel it's a need for worry, either.

Can someone answer please this? Also, the dot-by-dot stuff...where are settings that have to do with this other than Orbiter Mode?

TIA

Great. What happens if you do, then? I always use a ps3 or hd-a35 for dvd playback, but i guess my wife has used our old dvd player occasionally which I had set up for the break-in disc. Naturally, she left the AV selection on standard, which I set to the break-in settings. Is this really going to do something awful to my tv? I just can't imagine it being that easy to break.

there is not one spot in my thread stating to use the post break in settings with the break in settings. so i dont know where you are getting this... i simply started a display settings thread and used all of d-nice reference settings as a starting point.

Got the second 5020 from Amazon. No dents, dings, bad pixels, buzzing, looks great. I'm running the break-in CD now. I love it. I wanna adopt it but the fat lady at town hall won't let me.

K

After setting up a Kuro for a friend of mine (5010) it made me realize just how much better a Pioneer is than my Panasonic. I have come up with several tests over the years designed to challenge a TV, and for the first time, I found a TV that could beat a CRT in each one of them. (from my Ninja Gaiden Sigma motion blur test to the several shadow detail tests.... that Kuro was insane) so now I have to figure out some way to afford a Kuro myself, because I have tasted TV perfection, and it's name is Kuro. 5020 here I come.