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The Official Pioneer 9G non-Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 326

post #9751 of 14941
Take that same pic at completely off axis to the panel and see what you get! I don't think the other pics were a good example of what he's seeing, mainly because the LCD is more in line with the camera. However, I too get what TBird gets even in a very bright room with large windows facing SW and three large skylights in the ceiling over the seating area. It's all about settings!
post #9752 of 14941
^^^ Looks like your window is behind your TV, my is in front. I think it may depend heavily on how the light hits the screen, not necessarily the amount of light in the room.
post #9753 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncnmra View Post

^^^ Looks like your window is behind your TV, my is in front. I think it may depend heavily on how the light hits the screen, not necessarily the amount of light in the room.

There is a window to the side and one in front as well. Neither can be seen from that vantage point.

6 other light sources are also directly in front of the set.
post #9754 of 14941
PS: The FIRST image is with the TVs OFF. Settings are NOT the problem here, the TV just can't get any darker than the base image of the screen. I'll take some more pics if you don't believe me. The first pic may be a *little* exaggerated, but its not that far off.
post #9755 of 14941
I snapped a couple quick pics for you.

The first I took with the TV off, and the second with a CG image for comparison. Again, all of the lights were on with the windows open, and there's a large window behind the camera that you can't see, so there's plenty of light to go around.

The second picture was taken in PURE mode only, which your panel should be able to duplicate pretty closely with the proper settings. Nothing about that image looks washed out to me.










post #9756 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

I don't see any reason for your plasma to be washed out like that unless your settings are completely off (brightness WAY too high), or you have an issue.

Under direct light, it's physically impossible for a plasma - or any other display - to appear 'blacker' than the color of the screen itself. The Kuros have a gray screen. This shade of gray is as black as they will ever get under well lit conditions.

I have a samsung LCD that I have compared side-by-side with my 6020, and I get exactly the same results. The Kuro appears completely washed out compared to the LCD.

I have no problem with this, as I bought the plasma for movie watching, mostly after dark. I should add that the PQ on the Kuro is leaps and bounds ahead of the Samsung when it comes to any other criteria other than daylight/bright ambient light viewing.
post #9757 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

I snapped a couple quick pics for you.

The first I took with the TV off, and the second with a CG image for comparison. Again, all of the lights were on with the windows open, and there's a large window behind the camera that you can't see, so there's plenty of light to go around.

The second picture was taken in PURE mode only, which your panel should be able to duplicate pretty closely with the proper settings. Nothing about that image looks washed out to me.


[]

Can we get any more ISF Day shots for comparison?
post #9758 of 14941
Quote:


Under direct light, it's physically impossible for a plasma - or any other display - to appear 'blacker' than the color of the screen itself.

I certainly don't disagree. But again, I have several light sources in front of the set. I do not get a washed out picture to anywhere near the degree that ncnmra's picture displays.
post #9759 of 14941
TBird, my experience is very much like your example. I have no problem with the picture during the day, but it is quite a bit nicer during the evening!
post #9760 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

Can we get any more ISF Day shots for comparison?

Sure. ISF Day....




post #9761 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

I certainly don't disagree. But again, I have several light sources in front of the set. I do not get a washed out picture to anywhere near the degree that ncnmra's picture displays.

ncnmra's picture might appear to exaggerate the effect, but, honestly, without seeing the two displays side-by-side, it's hard to appreciate the difference in black level. There is simply no comparison.

On a historical note, does anyone remember in the heyday of CRTs, manufacturers were advertising 'blacker' displays with terms like 'super black' etc? It was to address these types of issues, that CRTs started using darker tinted tubes.
post #9762 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwalsh View Post

1. Satellite (1080i)- Movie Mode with pure Cinema at Standard

2. DOD(1080p/24)- Movie with Pure Cinema at "OFF"If TV has been Calibrated) or Advanced(If has not been Calibrated)

3. ( BluRay)Same at 2 above.

4. Cannot help you about the PS3

I have the 722 and my set was Calibrated by D-Nice

Thank you...quite simple....I will use these as my initial settings to see how things go. Gonna watch tomorrow will have well over 150 hours break in using the thumb drive images by then!

Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

And "Off" for 1080i non-film and 720p from satellite?

I appreciate this addition...but what exactly do you mean? Do you mean that in addition to what rwalsh said about satellite....that Pure Cinema can be set to Standard....or Off...but only Off when it's non-film? And by non-film do you mean....hm.... what do you mean?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

Believe me, I totally understand.



List of the color temperatures for the different A/V modes of the PDP-5020FD & PDP-6020FD models:

A/V modes:
  • Optimum: 7500K but automatically changes

  • Dynamic: 10000K

  • Performance: 8600K with S-shaped gamma

  • Movie: 6350K with a 2.3 gamma

  • Sports: 10000K with S-shaped gamma

  • Game: 8000K with a 2.2 gamma

  • Standard: 8000K with S-shaped gamma
The Movie mode is the recommended A/V mode to use on the Kuro 9G non-Elites because it's closest to the D65 standard (6500K) and it has a decent gamma.

As for the PC modes (PureCinema), that's still being highly argued, debated, and discussed in order to find definitive positive answers with no sign of letting up. If you ask about it, be prepared to: 1. probably get attacked; 2. receive at least two totally different answers (which makes #1's response rather ridiculous and uncalled for). There's back-n-forth info about that all in this thread, other Kuro threads, but one more so dedicated to it here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1124457

I believe all the PC modes behave the same way regardless of which A/V mode is used. What I would recommend, what I'm going to do, is just find a TV program that will be unchanged for a while (sporting event for example, or DVD), and just switch between each PC mode and see if you can see a difference. The problem with that is our "memory" in these cases is extremely short and one can forget exactly what they were accurately seeing in the long time it takes to go into the menu, scroll through all the items to get to the PC mode settings, and change between each of them. There should be a button on the remote where you could select PC modes on-the-fly, or least be able to make a remote macro to do it. Otherwise the way it is now, it could take a long time to come to any conclusion--which may mean, it simply doesn't matter.



You can "laminate" that color temp info above , and the PC chart here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post15926547 for starters. If you haven't already, get the PDF manual from the Pioneer site and you can search it for any specific terms.

And thank you Clint...once again! I will be sure to use yours...and all suggestions to figure out the best way to watch the different source I will be viewing. My wife has had enough of the break in...she asked me today at lunch....can we watch it tonight? LOL I told her...one more day. Since we are using break in images with a 30 sec. pause where it's black between images...I'm gonna throw in another 20 hours for good measure. Tomorrow is a big day...my PS3 will arrive....and I will have to give a bluray disk a go with DNice's post break in settings.

Thank you very much for the help!
post #9763 of 14941
Quote:


ncnmra's picture might appear to exaggerate the effect, but, honestly, without seeing the two displays side-by-side, it's hard to appreciate the difference in black level. There is simply no comparison.

I simply don't see it. LCDs will degrade under bright lights as will any other technology. I'm on an LCD right now and it certainly looks best in the dark.

In any case, I maintain that the 5020 pictured should be capable of MUCH better than that. If the effect is simply exaggerated in the photo, then that's one hell of an exaggeration. Either that, or the Elite's AR filter does a FAR better job than the non-Elite's.
post #9764 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Based on this post, specifically the reference to the PX75u and heat issues, you have what I call a defective panel. There are a few 5020FDs out there that cannot go beyond 30fL of peak light output in Movie mode. More than likely you have one of those panels as you should be able to get up to 42fL of peak light output from Movie mode on a 5020FD.

I recommend you either get your current set replaced or buy another brand/model display.

Thanks for posting the max capabilities you've found. That's quite a bright maximum capability for Movie Mode which is far from the brightest mode on the display. My movie mode was calibrated to ~35ftl and is by no means 'dim' even in normal lighting.

Some of the talk about 'brightness' without any objective points of reference such as foot lambert readings can be skewed from what excellent viewing quality in a home generally requires. It does not call for LCD type backlight driven brightness:

http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/services_support/library

Quote:


SMTPE video standard white = 30 Foot-Lamberts = 100
Candelas/sq.m

SMTPE cinema standard white = 16 Foot-Lamberts = 55 Candelas/sq.m
Foot Lamberts

"Sufficiently bright" has been defined by Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) in standard 196M as 12-22 footlamberts (41 - 75 cd/m2), though often 16 footlamberts is taken as the nominal goal.

Foot lamberts relates to how bright the screen actually is. The ideal measurement is 11 fL with 10-11 fL good. For reference a direct view TV measures between 25-35 fL

For these type displays then 30FTL should be right on the money per THX HT recommendations. A pro calibrator is going to generally shoot for a range not far off from this anyway even in a normally lighted room so the ability to go to 42FTL in movie mode means the display exceeds "sufficient brightness" even in that mode let alone in its brighter modes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

Quote:


Quote:
Originally Posted by mt14942
Thanks Eliab, very informative read. In your opinion what would be the ideal FtL setting for a dark room with just a 6500K Ideal-Lume lamp lighting behind the display? I have my ISF Night calibrated with a 30FtL output. By the way my ISF Day is set to 37 FtL as my viewing room is not to bright even in the day time due to both wood blinds and drapes over all the windows. I just use the Optimum mode for those rare occasions when the blinds and drapes are drawn and the room is real bright.
Thanks,
Mike
Thanks,


You're welcome. 30 fl for critical evening and 37 fl for a somewhat bright room are good numbers.

Eliab


A normally lighted room is different even from a room where sunlight is directly pooring on the screen. Reflectivity alone dictates a poor image on a glass screen. I don't think any any screen looks great in that scenario (the LCD posted certainly doesn't either) but I'd definitely consider an LCD in that case where you simply don't have a normal or proper Home Theater environment. If the light were not directed to front of the screen the Kuro would fare much better than the pic. In fact I do have an LCD hanging in a room where I can open the window on it (although I don't often do so). I never use anything near the brightest level on the LCD anyway.



Quote:


How bright or not bright are the Kuros? THX recommends 30 fL as the peak white level for a 100% white window pattern viewed in a dark room on a self-contained video display (like a plasma or LCD). This level will look plenty bright in a dark room, but it is low enough that you won't have problems with eyestrain over the course of a 2 hour movie (or longer).

The problem some of those LCDs have is that the peak white is so bright, they can't be turned down to 30 fL... they won't go below 50 or 60 fL in some cases. So in a store, with light and other displays nearby, it's pretty easy for the Kuro to look "dim" but I GUARANTEE that when you get the TV home into a home theater room where there's little or no light, it will look better than anything else you can buy today at any price - by a fairly large margin.
post #9765 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

Depending on your budget, you may want to invest in a 111 to get the ISF modes. ISF Day will provide more of an LCD "pop" and help during daylight viewing.

The Elite Kuro will enable a more accurate bright setting but not really a brighter display overall. If he's using a bright setting as he says like Sport or Performance or even Standard then he's seeing just a bright or brighter a picture as he would get on ISF Day setting of the Elite. Non-Elite still gives "LCD Pop" in these modes esp. when you consider that most people's "LCD pop" modes are also inaccurate and high temp as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Quote:


Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice
Actually they can achieve way above that. Performance mode, out of the box, pushes 63fL. On the Elites, the ISFccc modes are capable of 50fL+ of peak light output without clipping, discolorization, or loss of a linear grayscale or gamma.

I get 58 fL in Performance mode, but nowhere near that in any other mode. And you can only setup the ISF modes in the Elites that way if you own ControlCAL which the average owner doesn't have nor do any stores I know of - at least not the large retailers, maybe some savvy hign-end or custom store might have it.

And if the store did happen to be using Performance mode instead of Optimum, and there were any LCDs in the vicinity, the LCDs are STILL going to make a 58 fL display seem dim in comparison as the LCDs will still be running 100-140 fL in many, perhaps most, cases.


If he doesn't think that NE bright modes are bright enough the Elite is not going to get him to LCD range brightness of 100FL+, not even close. For that brightness he will need an LCD.
post #9766 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by andiron View Post

Thank you...quite simple....I will use these as my initial settings to see how things go. Gonna watch tomorrow will have well over 150 hours break in using the thumb drive images by then!



I appreciate this addition...but what exactly do you mean? Do you mean that in addition to what rwalsh said about satellite....that Pure Cinema can be set to Standard....or Off...but only Off when it's non-film? And by non-film do you mean....hm.... what do you mean?




And thank you Clint...once again! I will be sure to use yours...and all suggestions to figure out the best way to watch the different source I will be viewing. My wife has had enough of the break in...she asked me today at lunch....can we watch it tonight? LOL I told her...one more day. Since we are using break in images with a 30 sec. pause where it's black between images...I'm gonna throw in another 20 hours for good measure. Tomorrow is a big day...my PS3 will arrive....and I will have to give a bluray disk a go with DNice's post break in settings.

Thank you very much for the help!

Look at the several Posts on page 322 of this Forum. I think this will provide you with the Answer.
post #9767 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by andiron View Post


Quote:


Quote:
Originally Posted by rwalsh
1. Satellite (1080i)- Movie Mode with pure Cinema at Standard

2. DOD(1080p/24)- Movie with Pure Cinema at "OFF"If TV has been Calibrated) or Advanced(If has not been Calibrated)

3. ( BluRay)Same at 2 above.

4. Cannot help you about the PS3

I have the 722 and my set was Calibrated by D-Nice


I appreciate this addition...but what exactly do you mean? Do you mean that in addition to what rwalsh said about satellite....that Pure Cinema can be set to Standard....or Off...but only Off when it's non-film? And by non-film do you mean....hm.... what do you mean?

Non-Film means essentially recording that wasn't shot on FILM or rather as Cinema, for the theater, as a Movie presentation so to speak. These are most commonly captures at 24fps. There are some TV shows shot 24fps (and some movies not shot 24fps) but mostly they will be 30fps or 60fps if they are not Movies.

The PS3 if it's used for games or non-movie video and not to play Blu-ray or DVD is generally going to be 30fps or 60fps so you can leave pure cinema off to be safe or mostly ignore it since none of the modes should detect it as a FILM signal.

Please see this post:
Quote:


The names of the features can actually be helpful here. "Pure Cinema" is actually focused on FILM content aka Cinema which is usually captured at 24fps. Hockey is not film content, it'll be 60fps most likely so you can process it in Standard way (PC:Standard) or leave Pure Cinema OFF.
post #9768 of 14941
Ok so I have a local authorised dealer that has an amazing deal on Non-elites while they last.

5010s and 6010s going out while they last. Wish I had waited and dont ask me here.

P.m me for info.

Paul
post #9769 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

I don't see any reason for your plasma to be washed out like that unless your settings are completely off (brightness WAY too high), or you have an issue.

Mine looks absolutely nothing like that.

Here's mine in Pure mode only, which your non-elite should be able to replicate fairly closely. The room is extremely bright with lots of sunlight beaming in.







I agree,
That TV's brightness looks jacked up or something or something is wrong with it. If mine looked like that during the day it would be returned immediatly. I could not handle that.

The kuros actually do pretty good in a brightened environment.
Not as good as LCDs but very good.

Check out the video of the Pro-110fd next to a huge window and surrounded by other windows:

Pro-110FD during the Daytime with windows
post #9770 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by DOMAIN64 View Post

Ok so I have a local authorised dealer that has an amazing deal on Non-elites while they last.

5010s and 6010s going out while they last. Wish I had waited and dont ask me here......

shouldn't that be 5020/6020? if he still has 5010/6010 models then it should be a super duper extra lowball great deal for anyone to want one now.
post #9771 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by iatacs19 View Post

With all this talk about buzzing, dead pixels, flickering and dirty whites I am a little bit concerned. I am taking delivery of my 5020FD tomorrow from Amazon and I am paranoid as hell right now. I guess being too informed is not always good.


There is also the majority like me that see none of these problems...
I love my 6020....
Sonny
post #9772 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwalsh View Post

After decompressing the Downloaded File, I moved the folder "Update" to a Flash Drive. I formatted my Flash Drive to "Fat32". When Re-starting my TV, it took a few seconds before the Firmware update started. It went smoothly. Before this, moving just the 3 files in the "Update" Folder to the Flash Drive and not Formatting the Drive, it would not work.

I agree, you need to reformat the USB flash drive. That's the only way it worked for me. I tried and tried to do the Firmware update on my 5020FD and it wouldn't start the update (and I didn't have any errors) even though the 3 files were in the "update" folder. I finally decided to reformat my USB flash drive to "Fat32" and put the directory "update" with the 3 files on it. I think formatting it to "Fat32" did the trick finally. The drive was formatted over a year ago to "Fat32" to begin with, but reformatting it did the trick finally. Firmware update was sucessful after the reformat.
post #9773 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncnmra View Post

Remember, I'm talking about a well lit room (ie: windows open, but NO direct sunlight coming in. I took these pictures this morning. The sun was on the opposite side of the house, but the plasma looks dull. If you think this is a defect then GREAT, I'd love to get it replaced, but from what I've seen and read, its been well discussed that under non-ideal lighting conditions, plasmas screens get washed out.

Now, in a darkened room, its a different story, but the change in screen appearance is DRAMATIC. These pictures aren't 100% ideal, but they are pretty close to what I'm seeing in real life.



If you were to place the 5020 on the stand and the Sammy on the floor, and take the identical picture...you might choke at the results.

I thought everyone knew that the Pioneer panels lose 50% brightness when viewed at this kind of off axis in the VERTICAL plane. All kuro owners...walk up to your set so you are a few feet from it and see just how dim it gets. Yet on the horizontal axis the viewing angle is huge.

In order to get the vertical plane off axis for a tv mounted at he proper height...you would have to be lying on the floor, or standing right on top of it. With you normal viewing distance there is ZERO dimming effect.

ISF day mode will blow the doors off that Sammy. Get with the program please.
post #9774 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by dssturbo1 View Post

shouldn't that be 5020/6020? if he still has 5010/6010 models then it should be a super duper extra lowball great deal for anyone to want one now.

Yeah, I know DS, but its a little crazy out there right now, and I wanted to help.

Look im a lawyer, not a salesman, but it is super duper, lol.

I think you would agree, the prior non-elites were very good as well.

Thats all
post #9775 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

Non-Film means essentially recording that wasn't shot on FILM or rather as Cinema, for the theater, as a Movie presentation so to speak. These are most commonly captures at 24fps. There are some TV shows shot 24fps (and some movies not shot 24fps) but mostly they will be 30fps or 60fps if they are not Movies.

The PS3 if it's used for games or non-movie video and not to play Blu-ray or DVD is generally going to be 30fps or 60fps so you can leave pure cinema off to be safe or mostly ignore it since none of the modes should detect it as a FILM signal.

Please see this post:

Awesome! Thank you! I think I'm starting to get a grasp of the settings...at least a little bit....and I have some good directions on specific other threads I will be reading here in a bit. I've been copying and pasting so that I can digest this stuff while I do my set-up tomorrow. One thing of note...seems like a bit of a hassle to have to set Pure Cinema back and forth depending on whether or not you're watching a movie...yes? I'm sure this has been discussed...so I will crawl away now...very slowly...nothing to see here...carry on!
post #9776 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd1 View Post

set your box to display just 1080i & it should get rid of the delay.

Thanks. I'll give it a try and let you know how it turns out.
post #9777 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncnmra View Post

Well then consider yourself lucky, because I think you're case is the exception rather than the rule.

No I don't think so. In the buzz thread there are quite a few people who have posted they don't have buzz. I guess people tend to look over those posts as well as the poll that shows that over 200 others don't have it. I understand its a real issue for a lot of people. But at the same time its a non issue for a lot of people.
post #9778 of 14941
I just had a calibration of my Pioneer 5020 today by Doug Weil of Clearly Resolved out of St Louis, MO. I have to say Doug was top notch all the way. Not only did he give me a much better picture but he expained everything in great detail all the way through. Explaind every screen and test he was looking at, showed me how it was off and then showed me how it should look. I am very satisfied with my calibration and I was one of those skeptic types and I am now a true believer. Whites are not so dirty any more and detail in black just pops now, very impressed. I give Doug Weil of Clearly Resolved 5 stars out of 5, he was very friendly and professional. At the end I already had my holes in the wall and the bracket secured to the wall and he took time to help me run the wires through the wall and lift my TV up on the bracket for no extra charge, I would recommend Doug to any one he can reach out of the St Lois area that is in his coverage area.

As for the 5020 itself wowowowowowow is all I can say, I watched my first DVD today on my Sony BDP-350 and holy ----, looked far better on the 5020 than it ever did on my Samsung DLP I love this TV...
post #9779 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ta23 View Post

I just had a calibration of my Pioneer 5020 today by Doug Weil of Clearly Resolved out of St Louis, MO.

As for the 5020 itself wowowowowowow is all I can say, I watched my first DVD today on my Sony BDP-350 and holy ----, looked far better on the 5020 than it ever did on my Samsung DLP I love this TV...



Thanks for your Report
post #9780 of 14941
Quote:
Originally Posted by iatacs19 View Post

With all this talk about buzzing, dead pixels, flickering and dirty whites I am a little bit concerned. I am taking delivery of my 5020FD tomorrow from Amazon and I am paranoid as hell right now. I guess being too informed is not always good.

LOL most of us here have none of these issues. Although I must confess I have no idea what the dirty white is all about. Everything looks normal to me.
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