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Xbox 360 settings: Black Levels - Extended or Standard? - Page 2

post #31 of 65
yes they can gain more colors vivid or not but the cause is black crush (watch avp2 in the 360 and you know what i mean tooo damn dark to see in extended mode) then its more easier to watch in standard mode. note that yes that movie was aimed for dark scenes but not crushed blacks studio rgb levels are set based on standard (16-235) while as you go to intermedite and extended PC RGB (0-255) aka vga connection for those 360 owners.

you see all games / sd dvd/hd movies are 16 -235 rgb but pc are full from 0 255, the only 360 game that was made in studios rgb levels in pc full was king kong which most 360 owners had complaints that the game was too dark on their plasma/lcd

so they made an update to support vga and thus refrence mode exsisted

(vga was the only way to do 100 upconvert and 1080p) as where componet would not do it in ALL tvs but SOME.

i hope this explains or helps in a way

Quote:
Originally Posted by sperron View Post

I think that what makes people like the "expanded" setting isn't that it makes the blacks look "better", but rather that the remapped levels when combined with a TV's natural gamma curve create a darker gamma curve (going from 2.2 gamma to a 2.5 gamma for example). A darker gamma curve has a deeper look with richer looking colors. So they really are seeing a change that they like and not imagining things. If they can calibrate and make sure that it's not crushing blacks or casuing a bad color shift in the peak whites, then there is no reason not use expanded. Truthfully if your TV isn't calibrated by someone knowledgable, it's all strictly what the owner prefers anyway.
post #32 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

yes they can gain more colors vivid or not but the cause is black crush (watch avp2 in the 360 and you know what i mean tooo damn dark to see in extended mode) then its more easier to watch in standard mode. note that yes that movie was aimed for dark scenes but not crushed blacks studio rgb levels are set based on standard (16-235) while as you go to intermedite and extended PC RGB (0-255) aka vga connection for those 360 owners.

On a well designed TV you can use test patterns to set your brightness correctly using PC levels and you will not get black crush. Black crush only happens when either you don't use a test pattern to set the brightness control correctly or when your TV is incapable of displaying the levels correctly (or possibly can't display them at all). On a well designed TV, you should be able to input PC levels and correctly adjust your brightness and contrast controls to display the full range.

What I was talking about is what happens when the level mapping changes the display's gamma curve. Each TV has an inherent gamma curve that is a result of it's natural gamma curve plus the adjustments the processing makes. Using expanded levels can cause quite a change in the gamma response, especially if the brightness and contrast controls have not been set properly. This effect would be TV dependent and wouldn't necessarily have the same result on different TV models.
post #33 of 65
you got the answers to your self man, in short most consumers are not going to go for flagship tv (pioneer and such) but want the best they can, now did you read the warnin advice from ms when you change the refrence mode? it clearly states that if the tv or moniter is incapble (hence my full / limited 0 255 rgb) the tv will decline in PQ, sure it will look like it inproves most areas but will crush blacks and shadow detail in darker areas



Quote:
Originally Posted by sperron View Post

On a well designed TV you can use test patterns to set your brightness correctly using PC levels and you will not get black crush. Black crush only happens when either you don't use a test pattern to set the brightness control correctly or when your TV is incapable of displaying the levels correctly (or possibly can't display them at all). On a well designed TV, you should be able to input PC levels and correctly adjust your brightness and contrast controls to display the full range.

What I was talking about is what happens when the level mapping changes the display's gamma curve. Each TV has an inherent gamma curve that is a result of it's natural gamma curve plus the adjustments the processing makes. Using expanded levels can cause quite a change in the gamma response, especially if the brightness and contrast controls have not been set properly. This effect would be TV dependent and wouldn't necessarily have the same result on different TV models.
post #34 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

excuse me? are you reffering to my post? the standard intermidete and extended does affect the picture by crushing the blacks (proven with a movie in a dark scene AND on on games like ex gta 4,

put standard mode on refrence and go to the menu on the gta where the stats are at and you will seee that you can see a black background when highlighted white or clear line to see the stats. Now go back to extended and do the repeat on gta and the clear color will disapear and the stats will be harder to see/ read.

No, you're still not right. The fact that its a plasma is absolutely meaningless. The reason that it matters is because some HDTVs treat the HDMI/VGA in as a PC input and use a PC color scale, and others treat it as a video input and use a video scale. The fact that your TV does one or the other has nothing to do with it being a plasma, and everything to do with its input and how the manufacturer sets it up.
post #35 of 65
Okay, so I am considering utilizing VGA for my new Panny 65" plasma. I haven't been able to get through all this technical speak. Should I set the 360 to extended or standard? I don't have a calibration disc.
post #36 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogbuehi View Post

Okay, so I am considering utilizing VGA for my new Panny 65" plasma. I haven't been able to get through all this technical speak. Should I set the 360 to extended or standard? I don't have a calibration disc.

I believe the Panasonics use Video levels as opposed to PC levels, so standard.
post #37 of 65
Standard should always be correct for a standard TV.

You may be able to get a little more color range, if your TV could be set to accept full range video and you set the 360 to extended. For most people, it's likely not worth messing with.
post #38 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post

I believe the Panasonics use Video levels as opposed to PC levels, so standard.

Thanks.
post #39 of 65
jhoff80 what im trying to point out that if a x display is not capable of receiving full range 0-255 then it will look worse then standard, sorry if i said my "plasma" insted yes it has to do with it being capable of rgb full range or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post

No, you're still not right. The fact that its a plasma is absolutely meaningless. The reason that it matters is because some HDTVs treat the HDMI/VGA in as a PC input and use a PC color scale, and others treat it as a video input and use a video scale. The fact that your TV does one or the other has nothing to do with it being a plasma, and everything to do with its input and how the manufacturer sets it up.

michaeljhuman yeah thats what im trying to put out to everyone that standard should be for the majority of the tvs since they are not full 0- 255 rgb insted limited to 16-255 and if you play with standard and extended and the tv is not capable it does suffer PQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Standard should always be correct for a standard TV.

You may be able to get a little more color range, if your TV could be set to accept full range video and you set the 360 to extended. For most people, it's likely not worth messing with.

ogbuehi why not just use componet or hdmi?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogbuehi View Post

Okay, so I am considering utilizing VGA for my new Panny 65" plasma. I haven't been able to get through all this technical speak. Should I set the 360 to extended or standard? I don't have a calibration disc.
post #40 of 65
Every TV is differnet.

I have a 56" Sammy Dlp. I had it calibrated with DVE HDDVD/DVD combo. Standard DVD player. Then put it in the Xbox.
Tested with Component originally (later VGA and HDMI).

The same input that was calibrated with DVD player had:
Standard had WAY to much for brightness levels. Black patters were a light grey at best. Expanded was WAY to Dark as it crushed the blacks and the whites. Intermediate had the levels relative to the other inputs be very very close. But didn't have crushed whites/blacks and didn't have to move the picture settings to extremes.

All in all a Calibrated Intermediate or a calibrated Standard resulted in same results. I just didn't have to move the brightness/contrast as much compared to before. Originally this was a problem as I had component from DVD and Xbox sharing same jacks on tv due to Component video switching of AVR.
post #41 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Standard should always be correct for a standard TV.

You may be able to get a little more color range, if your TV could be set to accept full range video and you set the 360 to extended. For most people, it's likely not worth messing with.

Expanded really doesn't give you more color range even though the number range might suggest that (0-255). Standard accepts the full RGB color range but simply maps them different numbers (16-235). This allows possible numbers that could be passed below and above the range to be handled as "blacker than black" and "superwhite" displaying as black and white instead of being clipped.

Standard is usually the best bet (just as RGB "limited" is on the PS3) unless a PC video level is expected by the TV or monitor. Some TV's may be set to auto and detect the level automatically thus changing the setting would appear to show no difference.
post #42 of 65
^^^^^^

fianly someone else gets it
post #43 of 65
I decided to do some actual measurements so we can see exactly what is going on. Both consoles connected using HDMI to my Sony 70 XBR2. I used HCFR and an i1 pro to measure.

360 standard levels, black level set correctly for standard (measured contrast ratio 1861:1)

360 expanded, black level at settings correct for standard (crushed blacks and high end color shift) (1456:1)

360 expanded, black level set correctly for expanded (extreme high end color shift) (1702:1)


PS3 limited, black level set correctly for limited (1520:1)

PS3 full RGB, black level set correctly for limited (crushed blacks) (1982:1)

PS3 full RGB, black level set correctly for full RGB (high end color shift) (2895:1)


If you look at the 360 expanded with an incorrect black level (crushed blacks) and the PS3 full RGB with an incorrect black level (cushed blacks) you will see that the gamma skews way dark especially at the low end. This will have the appearance of much deeper/richer colors as well as a deeper looking image. Many people that don't know any better won't know (or possibly even care) that thier blacks are being crushed and declare expanded to look much better then standard.

With the 360 even if you set your black level correctly, the high end whites end up being discolored and blown out if you also don't lower your contrast to something reasonable. Just setting it to expanded and raising your brightness control does not result in an optimal image.

If you look at the 360 standard it has a nice even gamma curve and will result in the most pleasing looking picture without calibrating.

Here's the .chc files for anyone interested.

 

gameconsoles.zip 21.83203125k . file
post #44 of 65
I think I understand now. I thought the Standard 360 setting was the actual correct setting, and the other two were for added effect. But as many others have pointed out: Every TV is different. Therefore, for MY TV (5271), the expanded setting is the correct setting to match the able blackness of the set, because when I turn it to the Dtv signal, my display is not foggy (nor crushed). So, Microsoft knew that new sets are different and put out an update-correct? As I said: Without Expanded, my display would be trash. And I definitely got my 71 after the update, because there's no way I would've accepted that sort of foggy picture degradation. It looks like the movie The Fog or The Mist, and some sluggish monster is going to attack the characters on-screen. Thank goodness they updated.
post #45 of 65
no, lake. new tv's are not necessarily 'different'- the only time you want to use anything other than standard is if your TV is expecting a signal from a computer. Read Dhalsim's post again, he gets it.
For isntance, I have a ps3 and a 360, and I move them back and forth between my samsung DLP and a dell 2407 monitor. on the Dell, I have to set both consoles to their 'expanded' settings (RGB Full on the PS3) since that's a computer monitor. But my samsung is a tv, so if I use the HDMI or component inputs on that, I have to set the consoles to standard (RGB limited on the ps3) BUT! If I use the VGA cable with the 360 and the VGA input on my samsung, I need to switch back to expanded because the samsung considers the VGA input a computer input, so it expects signals to be in the expanded format.
Basically, you need to get to know your displays really well and how each input on them works to get this right since the 'correct' setting completely depends on your specific set up and how each piece of equipment is designed to work.
post #46 of 65
So your saying, I should be using Standard, and the fogginess is supposed to be there? Because the only way I get the same type of dark level is to turn my brightness way down to 30 from 40. Most calibrations I've seen always have brightness in the 40's, which is why I'm confused. Am I crushing blacks with brightness at 30?
post #47 of 65
sperron, thanks for posting that ... exactly what I'm seeing on my Panasonic commercial plasma. I had forgotten my xbox was still set to expanded from when I used the vga input. With the i1 display lt and color hcfr, I had my dvd player's gamma nearly spot on but the xbox's gamma looked like a ski slope--just like your second shot.

For anybody who is unsure about the technical terms or wants to learn more about display calibration, here is an excellent link:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457
post #48 of 65
So, I've been testing on some dark areas of GOW, and I definitely see a big difference between the reference levels now. As Gus said: Expanded gives off a seemingly more bright and vivid picture, but it severly crushes blacks. But, with using Standard, that vividness and pop I loved so much is gone-what a trip. So, the foggyness IS supposed to be there-got it. Surprisingly, using Intermediate and only having to lower my brightness a couple notches gives me the same pop and vividness, and also doesn't crush the blacks so severly. So, that's good enough for me. Thanks alot for the knowledge guys.
post #49 of 65
One thing to keep in mind is that if you are using a plasma or CRT based displays, there is a good chance that you may be badly overdriving the phospshurs using expanded/full RGB if your brightness is set correctly and you do not have you contrast setting farily low. Where a digital set like mine simply run out of a color (red in most cases) when overdriven, a phosphur based display will just try to display it by going brighter and brighter which may lead to a shorter phospher life and possibly uneven phoshur wear (burn in). If I had a plasma or CRT and wanted to use expanded/full RGB I'd be very sure to use test patterns to set my contrast/brightness controls correctly and be very conservative on how high my contrast was set. Video games have a lot of static images and could be a potential threat for burn in.
post #50 of 65
lake your tv is to blame for the foggyness as you describe. as for the colors being dead or not is related to the type of tv technology (no tv wars debate plz) such as lcd inaccurcy vs plasma accuracy vs crt. in short just leave your 71 sammy series to standard as is how its meant to be.

tv inputs from rca s vid/componet hdmi use standard

vga dvi etc etc pc moniters etc check if your display supports full 0-255 rgb or limited 16-255 rgb

everyone can blame ms or thank ms (depending how you look at it) by adding a vga port to add full colors to the people that take

short cuts by using a pc moniter vs those who actualy own a tv

lake fianly i dont want to sound rude or to attack you but too vividness and super whites is not a proper way to accurately see a tv my guess would be thats the reason you probably bought a lcd because in the store it "pop" out in vivid aka torch mode....

also the foggyness is maybe related to the limits of lcd technology pm me if u wish to describe it more.




Quote:
Originally Posted by LAKE4742 View Post

So, I've been testing on some dark areas of GOW, and I definitely see a big difference between the reference levels now. As Gus said: Expanded gives off a seemingly more bright and vivid picture, but it severly crushes blacks. But, with using Standard, that vividness and pop I loved so much is gone-what a trip. So, the foggyness IS supposed to be there-got it. Surprisingly, using Intermediate and only having to lower my brightness a couple notches gives me the same pop and vividness, and also doesn't crush the blacks so severly. So, that's good enough for me. Thanks alot for the knowledge guys.
post #51 of 65
You're exactly right. In the store, the "pop" was unbelieveable. And then I get it home and start calibrating and reasearching AVS, and realize all that "pop" is due to a potentially blinding backlight and contrast both set at 10, and bright colors that make real people look straight out of The Simpsons, along with losing tons of detail.
One thing is evident: The picture still impresses with my Dtv signal and HD programming, and I still like LCD for gaming. I was just unaware of the uses for the 360 settings. Now I know what they're for, and know a little bit more about tech, thanks to you guys.
post #52 of 65
so what would be the proper setting for a 9uk with component input?
post #53 of 65
As it was told to me: Pretty much, standard Tv's should use Standard 360 setting (unless you're using a VGA connection) to avoid crushed blacks. I was losing detail in places I wasn't even aware of. I calibrated my 5271 with Standard and games look muuuuuch better!-more natural! Just sayin...
post #54 of 65
i remember not seeing a diffrence on my LG, but i will test tomorrow and post results
post #55 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

jhoff80 what im trying to point out that if a x display is not capable of receiving full range 0-255 then it will look worse then standard, sorry if i said my "plasma" insted yes it has to do with it being capable of rgb full range or not.



michaeljhuman yeah thats what im trying to put out to everyone that standard should be for the majority of the tvs since they are not full 0- 255 rgb insted limited to 16-255 and if you play with standard and extended and the tv is not capable it does suffer PQ



ogbuehi why not just use componet or hdmi?

I'd like to use VGA because it allows upconversion, frees up an HDMI cable for something else and allows 1:1 pixel mapping for my set which has a PC input on it.
post #56 of 65
1080p, no handshake issues, and no DRM FTW.... VGA for me!
post #57 of 65
Can someone please help me? I posted this on the 67a750 thread and no one helped.

I have a Samsung 67A750. My current setting for the 360 are source, standard, 1080p. For the TV i have the hdmi black level set on low. Is there a better suggestion out there for my settings?

Reviving an old thread

Thanks
post #58 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

so does this prove that i am correct?

I couldn't understand enough of your posts to tell you
post #59 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogbuehi View Post

I'd like to use VGA because it allows upconversion, frees up an HDMI cable for something else and allows 1:1 pixel mapping for my set which has a PC input on it.

Ogbuehi, if you are going to use the VGA connection you will want to use the expanded setting for the Panny. It expects PC levels through that input.
post #60 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilent1 View Post

Ogbuehi, if you are going to use the VGA connection you will want to use the expanded setting for the Panny. It expects PC levels through that input.

Hmm. All the Panny TVs I've owned (3 so far) expect 'Normal', not PC levels, from VGA.
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