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5.1 or 7.1?

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 
Is there something to be gained by going to 7.1 (there will be two sub-woofers in either case, so, technically, 5.2 versus 7.2). It will be a 16' W by 19' D room after acoustic treatments, stretched fabric, etc.

Thoughts, opinions?
post #2 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

Is there something to be gained by going to 7.1 (there will be two sub-woofers in either case, so, technically, 5.2 versus 7.2). It will be a 16' W by 19' D room after acoustic treatments, stretched fabric, etc.

Thoughts, opinions?

Better surround envelopment for off-axis listeners.
post #3 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

Is there something to be gained by going to 7.1 (there will be two sub-woofers in either case, so, technically, 5.2 versus 7.2). It will be a 16' W by 19' D room after acoustic treatments, stretched fabric, etc.

Thoughts, opinions?

Yes there is, and 16ft wide will benefit from it, so long as you are not sitting right up against the rear wall

Some sources are actually 7.1, thats self explanatory and will become more common.

PlIIx processing of 5.1 makes a very big difference to your rear envelopment and coverage. Its very transparent and accurate. This also prevents rear image collapse. when off axis.

If you need to really crank up some music you will benefit from use of the extra 2 channels.

If you only have 5.1 you get banished to the other forum. I know you love it there
post #4 of 33
Thread Starter 
LOL. They ought to just call the other forum the JVC forum. The theater will be mostly for movies -- I have a dedicated listening room for music, although the kids might listen to music in the theater. The back row will not be sitting right up against the wall.
post #5 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

Is there something to be gained by going to 7.1

When a car exits screen left, you expect its sound disappear to your left side. When a plane flies overhead, you expect its sound to disappear behind you. How are you going to get stable imaging at your sides AND behind you using only 2 surround speakers? It doesn't matter how good the speakers are, one pair of surrounds can't be in two locations simultaneously (at your sides and behind you). The solution couldn't be easier: if you want stable imaging at your sides and behind you, then simply place speakers at your side and behind you.

IF the 7.1 system is laid out properly, there are three improvements you should hear compared to a 5.1 set-up. Better directionality: 4 hard sources give you distinct rear-vs-side and left-vs-right localization in the surround field. Greater envelopment: 4 speakers can literally 'surround' you better than 2 speakers ever could. Stable imaging: no matter where you're sitting, sounds intended to come from behind you will always come from that direction. No magic involved, just a pair of speakers placed behind you (making it difficult for those sounds to come from the wrong direction). You're not going to get that kind of directionality, envelopment and stability using only 2 surrounds (where you're relying more heavily on unstable phantom imaging).

Keep in mind that 7-channel pre-pros have been around for over two decades (Fosgate in 1986, Lexicon in 1988). That's a full 8 years before there was any 5.1 material available to consumers. Obviously, the number of channels in the source material had nothing to do with the reasons behind a 7-speaker configuration. The main reason some manufacturers were using it is because they felt that 2 speakers weren't enough to create a wrap-around 180 degree surround field around the listener, irrespective of whether you were listening to 2-channel sources or discrete 5.1 material.

Use the attached diagram as a starting point for your 7.1 layout (adjust to taste).

Sanjay
LL
post #6 of 33
Quote:


Is there something to be gained by going to 7.1

Yes absolutely. It's not hugely significant, and it may or may not be a wise choice in spending your money, depending on budget, etc, but certainly putting money aside a 7.1 system has advantages over a 5.1 system, assuming other things are held constant.

Quote:


after acoustic treatmen

Excellent. Something that is sadly forgotten in many theaters and listening spaces. It's the kind of thing where if you left that out, I'd suggest that first before adding 7.1 capability to a 5.1 system, as that investment is much more important than added rearward stability and imaging which is nice, but again, not something that you will notice as sorely lacking when absent. But when present, it definitely adds to the experience.
post #7 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Better surround envelopment for off-axis listeners.

For the on axis listeners too. 7 speakers gets rid of the holes in the surround soundfield that one gets with 5 speakers, it is more seamless. Most 5 speaker users don't recognize the holes until they hear 7 speaker surround.

Shawn
post #8 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

For the on axis listeners too. 7 speakers gets rid of the holes in the surround soundfield that one gets with 5 speakers, it is more seamless. Most 5 speaker users don't recognize the holes until they hear 7 speaker surround.

Shawn

Not getting that in my setup... I hear sounds directly behind me.
post #9 of 33
Thread Starter 
Okay, I have been a two channel audio guy for a loooooong time, so going to 5 channels for the theater is going to be a big jump, but it sounds like I am going to have to make a slightly bigger jump and go for the 7.1. Actually, 7.2 -- two sub-woofers.

Thanks for the input guys!
post #10 of 33
Bah sfogg, now I am questioning whether or not I should just add the extra two speakers... Thanks a lot.

Does anyone have any recommendations for sound material that puts sounds directly behind you, so that I can experiment?



I wasn't going to do it, but this lady in spain sent me an e-mail saying she is dying, and she is going to give me a couple of million dollars! So, that should cover a speaker or two....
post #11 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Bah sfogg, now I am questioning whether or not I should just add the extra two speakers... Thanks a lot.

Does anyone have any recommendations for sound material that puts sounds directly behind you, so that I can experiment?



I wasn't going to do it, but this lady in spain sent me an e-mail saying she is dying, and she is going to give me a couple of million dollars! So, that should cover a speaker or two....

How appropriate that I started this thread a week ago. Just what you are looking for......

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1035349
post #12 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

How appropriate that I started this thread a week ago. Just what you are looking for......

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1035349

Great and double great...

I guess I'm going to be using the money just made selling my WP8s and Ayre equipment on another set of Salon2s and Bryston PowerPacs. Damn you AVS Forum!!!
post #13 of 33
"Does anyone have any recommendations for sound material that puts sounds directly behind you, so that I can experiment?"

It isn't just that it can put material stably behind you though that is a benefit too. It is also a sense of a continual seamless surround. You hear that on ambient effects and on music. It just sounds more natural.

It also gives you the benefit of not having to compromise speaker placement in a 5 speaker system between side imaging and rear imaging. Either way you end up with 'holes' in the sound field. If the speakers are at your sides you have holes in the back corners of your room and surround pans will sort of sound like they jump through you. If you put the speakers in the rear a surround pan sounds like it occurs behind you but in turn side imaging suffers and surround pans jump more from front to rear.

It really is one of those things you need to hear for yourself in room to understand it. Before spending the money see if you can get a loaner speakers from your dealer to try it out, even with lesser speakers for your rears. The Lex. has the 7/5 button on the remote to allow you to easily compare 7 speakers vs. 5.

As far as speaker positioning goes the link Sanjay posted is a good one. Lexicon recommends the sides directly to the sides if possible. They get into speaker setup some in this booklet:

http://lexicon.com/products/download...ID=6&FileID=63

Shawn
post #14 of 33
Shawn,

I can't put them directly to the sides, but I can put them at the 110 degree angle, which is where I currently have them. Will that still make it worthwhile, or does that diminish the side to side stereo effect and strengthen the rear stereo effect enough to make it sort of pointless?
post #15 of 33
I may be able to move the seating forward a bit more, but I am already at 1.39 viewing distance for 16:9 material... If we were in the age of 2000x4000 native resolution video sources I could move forward enough to use 90 degree side speakers (my problem is an equipment room door on the right side of the room...). Right now though, I am stuck using 110 degrees since it is behind the seating couch. Perhaps I can get it to 108 degrees or 106 degrees (likely not on the 106 degrees).

I will take a look later to see if I can move the door to open the other way, and perhaps do 90 degrees, but I think it will hit the speaker...

I don't mind moving things, like doors and treatments in the room to accommodate a better surround setup. I do not want to ruin my Blu-Ray movie experience with pixelization though...
post #16 of 33
I recently switched from 5.1 to 7.1 as I moved to my renovated room and find it to be worthwhile. As noted above, the rear information plays more seamlessly. This, in concert w/the fact that it's also more speakers energizing the air w/that information gives the impression of greater solidity.

My 'sides' are at about 110 degrees back because of the layout of the room, but I'm going to experiment now w/temporarily rigging them at 90 degrees. A permanent move may mean some exposed wiring, but so be it.
post #17 of 33
I just checked the room... I am very excited. It appears that moving the seat forward from ~1.56 viewing distance to ~1.4 previously in order to get better speaker interaction with my room made it possible to place Salon2s in the room at 90 degrees. They will be against the walls though, so I don't know how well that will work for surround sound QoS (Quality of Sound). I can EQ only so much, so I don't want it to sound like crap either.

What sacrifices are made as you move from 90 degrees to say, 110 degrees (and vice versa...), in terms of a 7.2 surround field? I can either do 90 degrees or 108-110 degrees, there is no in-between unfortunately due to my equipment closet located in the underside of a staircase... I would like to have the freedom to get flatter responses if possible, but also would not want to sacrifice immersion factor.

Thanks.
post #18 of 33
"I can't put them directly to the sides, but I can put them at the 110 degree angle, which is where I currently have them. Will that still make it worthwhile, or does that diminish the side to side stereo effect and strengthen the rear stereo effect enough to make it sort of pointless?"

I know it isn't easy but if at all possible try it and see how it works out. Alternately could you put the sides slightly ahead of you... maybe 80 degrees? I'd try it both ways, with rears too of course, and see which layout you prefered.

If you were stuck with 110 degrees I'd probably make the rears a little closer spaced then normal. But again it would be one of those things to try various positions to see what works out best in your setup. Of course with your Revels that won't exactly be easy to keep trying new locations.

Shawn
post #19 of 33
Actually, moving the Revels is surprisingly easy. I haven't set them up on spikes yet! I'm waiting until everything is perfectly set up before I take that final leap.

As I mentioned, I can do the 90 degrees now!

If I do 90 degrees, what would you recommend as the angles for the back speakers?
post #20 of 33
Just to amplify a bit and provide some background on the rationale for the above advice…particularly with respect to the benefits of 7 speakers and in particular of placing side speakers at 90 degrees…

The reason for using two pairs of rear surrounds is grounded in a solid body of psychoacoustical research that clearly establishes why a 5.1 speaker configuration is inadequate when attempting to create a seamlessly immersive soundfield. This has been well-known in audio engineering since the definitive work by Theile and Plenge, as reported in their paper “Lateralization of Phantom Sound Sources,” published in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, April 1977. Their tests into side panning and phantom imaging effects showed quite conclusively that due to differences in the way we hear sounds originating from the side vs. the front, if we attempt to create phantom images at the sides using only front and rear speakers, the images are highly unstable. Their conclusion is that: “in the search for a loudspeaker arrangement that allows for ‘all round effect,’ the directions right and left on the lateral (90 degrees) must be represented through real sources.” In other words, stable side imaging *requires* a *real* pair of speakers placed directly to each side of the listener.

It is easy enough to demonstrate this fact for yourself in any system or room. Sit or stand in the sweet spot, and play a mono source through your two front L&R speakers--you’ll hear a typical stable phantom center image. Now turn 90 degrees, so that one ear is pointed towards that phantom center--rather than remaining locked to a fixed location, the “image” will break apart. Hence the reason why a pair of physical speaker is needed directly to the sides of the listening position.

Of course, placing the side speakers at 90 degrees inevitably leaves a huge gap in the rear soundfield. That is why many 5.1 speaker setups have the surrounds positioned farther behind the listening position. The popular speaker placement at 110-degrees is a compromise that narrows (but does NOT eliminate) the rear hole, but this partial improvement comes at the expense of seriously weakened side imaging, because of the problem described above. Thus, there is no way to achieve a seamless soundfield using only one set of surrounds. Dr. Robert E. Greene wrote a very cogent article explaining the inherent limitations in attempting to create surround with only 5 speakers in “The Perfect Vision,” Issue 30. May/June 2000.

Adding a second pair of surrounds for a 7-speaker setup solves this problem handily. The sides can be placed at 90 degrees for stable side imaging, the rears can be placed at 150 degrees to close the rear gap, and voila!--seamless, smooth envelopment.

This is why home surround processors from manufacturers with expertise in psychoacoustics (Lexicon, Meridian, and PL II developer Jim Fosgate) have been building their technologies around 7-speaker configurations for decades. This is also why in developing even the Surround EX format, THX and its Pro-Logic II partner Dolby Labs adopted a 7-speaker playback configuration for an immersive soundfield.

Once you know what to listen for, the ambient envelopment which makes up 99% of a film soundtrack (rain, wind, traffic, crowd noises, etc.) will never sound realistic with only 5 speakers because of the soundfield gaps that cannot be solved with only 5 speakers. And of course you obtain the intended directionality of EX and ES rear channel effects that are specifically encoded to be extracted and reproduced from the rears as distinct from the sides.



With respect to an earlier question in another thread about the use of a single rear speaker, this too is not a good idea for reasons that are grounded in a substantial body of psychoacoustic research dating back to the 1970s showing that 6.1 configuration is inherently flawed.

In the first place, our hearing behind us does not mirror the acuity of our hearing in front. Quite the contrary--sounds that originate along the median (center axis) plane between our ears, whether from above or directly behind are extremely difficult to place accurately, and not just because of those fleshy appendages called ears that sit between us and the sound source.. In large part, this reduced localization ability is due to the lack of certain fundamental localization cues, such as slight timing offset in the arrival at each ear, that are present when sounds originate from one side or the other. The result is the localization problem known as "back-to-front reversal," in which we actually hear sounds from directly behind as coming from in front of us. In an ambiguous situation, we "hear" the sound from the front center because that's where the focus of our visual field is, and basic survival instinct has taught us to give it more of our attention. There are certain sounds, such as voices, that we expect to hear coming from in front of us, so we do. And when we're watching a film with an EX soundtrack, our attention is firmly fixed ahead, hence we're even more susceptible to the auditory confusion.

The research documenting this phenomenon is abundant, but you don't have to take my word for it; here are some references to get you started: Butler, R.A. and K. Belendiuk, "Spectral Cues Utilized in the Localization of Sound in the Median Sagittal Plane," Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, 61 (1977); Morimoto, M. and H. Aokata, "Localization Cues of Sound Sources in the Upper Hemisphere," Journal of the Acoustical Society of Japan, 5 (1984); Musicant, A.D. and R.A. Butler, "The Influence of Pinnae-Based Spectral Cues on Sound Localization," Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, 75, (1984); Kuhn, G.F. "Physical Acoustics and Measurements Pertaining to Directional Hearing," in Directional Hearing, edited by W.A. Yost and G. Gourevitch, 3-25. New York: Springer-Verlag, 1987; and Wightman, F.L. and D.J. Kistler, "The Dominant Role of Low-Frequency Interaural Time Differences in Sound Localization," Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, 91 (1992).

The reversal problem tends to be contextual--what we expect to hear has a lot to do with where we place sounds. Not all sounds will get incorrectly localized, but some will, and that is even more problematic because only hearing some of what are meant to hear from behind lulls us into thinking we are hearing the soundtrack correctly, wheresas we can never be sure whether we are or not.

So, in light of this problem, we can now see that far from being MORE accurate, even with discrete rear channel content, the use of a center rear speaker in a 6.1 speaker configuration is actually FAR LESS accurate --unless your definition of accuracy is hearing a sound coming from the opposite side of the room from where it's meant to be heard.

The back-front reversal problem disappears, however, when using two rear speakers placed off the center axis. This is precisely the reason why THX, Dolby and DTS ES all mandate the use of TWO rear speakers, even when they're only reproducing the same mono rear content.

Lexicon's chief scientist David Griesinger recommends rear speaker placement at 130-150 degrees for the best balance of excitement and envelopment. Check his presentation "How Many Loudspeaker Channels are Enough?" at the bottom of his website page at
http://world.std.com/~griesngr/

Cheers,
Philip Brandes
post #21 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Actually, moving the Revels is surprisingly easy. I haven't set them up on spikes yet! I'm waiting until everything is perfectly set up before I take that final leap.

As I mentioned, I can do the 90 degrees now!

If I do 90 degrees, what would you recommend as the angles for the back speakers?

Good idea about not spiking them yet. If you put the sides at 90 degrees I'd try the rears at 135 degrees to 145 degrees.

Shawn
post #22 of 33
There is an excellent article on the mixing and setup of 7.1 interviewing Mi Casa in the current WSR. It is far more complicated than one would want it to be.
post #23 of 33
Well, I just ordered two more Bryston PowerPac 300 SST amps, and two more Salon2s. 7.2 here I come!

BTW, thanks for the informative post Philip.
post #24 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Well, I just ordered two more Bryston PowerPac 300 SST amps, and two more Salon2s. 7.2 here I come!

BTW, thanks for the informative post Philip.

Sweeeeet! That is going to be an incredible setup!
post #25 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Sweeeeet! That is going to be an incredible setup!

If you are ever in NY, you will have to come and visit Rydenfan.
post #26 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Well, I just ordered two more Bryston PowerPac 300 SST amps, and two more Salon2s. 7.2 here I come!

Nothing like diving straight in headfirst!

Have fun,

Shawn
post #27 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Nothing like diving straight in headfirst!

Have fun,

Shawn

Impulsive? Who me? Nah!
post #28 of 33
What is the consensus about the height of the side and rear speakers?

Bill
post #29 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Impulsive? Who me? Nah!

Once set up properly, you'll be glad you did it. For me, with a wide room, the difference was huge.

Let us know how it goes.
post #30 of 33
"What is the consensus about the height of the side and rear speakers?"

I am not sure there is one. I have had them both ways and it depends upon the setup on which way I prefer it. If you have sufficient room between the listeners and the surrounds ear level can work fine. If the speakers are fairly close to the listeners then putting the surrounds up higher seems to help keep the close proximity from being distracting.

Shawn
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