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Panasonic PZ80/PZ85 - "Color Flicker", "Brightness Shifting" Troubleshooting - Page 7

post #181 of 271
I eagerly await your response, I'm guessing because they don't care about the Panasonics enough to even comment.
post #182 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

I'm miles ahead of you on this one. And like I've told you why don't D-Nice or Ken Ross correct me if I'm wrong?

Little slow are ya?
post #183 of 271
Too fast, you edited, I understand you disagree with me but no need to be a jerk. To make it more clear to you I eagerly await D-Nice or Ken's response to you
post #184 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

^^^
You're a fanboy. And yes you do have an opinion.

I'm a fanboy because I told him I'm satisfied but he should go look at other TVs and make a choice? What would make you happy your highness?
post #185 of 271
IMO the "floating black" issue is a design choice by panasonic. To reduce banding in low APL scenes (increase gray levels), they vary the number of subfields (pulses) depending on APL (average picture level). The setup (reset) for each pulse adds background luminence (black level). Therefore, as the number of pulses vary, the black level varies as well.

As for the flicker issue. I have no idea?
post #186 of 271
I think that I am also having this flicker/color jumping issue. However, mine is on a th42pz800u. I have seen it a number of times, mostly on upscaled DVDs (Upscaled to 1080p on my Oppo dvd player) and cable HD (1080i source), it seems to be the brighter area of the picture that flickers/changes brightness. I see it a lot on bright areas (tan, yellow, and white colors) and have seen it on people's faces like in the you-tube video.

It has happened on blu-ray, but I was also able to see this same problem on a different tv using the same blu-ray disc so I assume it is a disc related problem.

Also, if I pause and slow down the dvd or HD feed, I can watch the area change from bright to normal back to bright slowly from step to step. If you pause it on one frame however, the area does not flicker or change. This makes me wonder if it just a feed related problem since it appears that certain frames are one color and then it changes the next frame. Also, it appears to be extremely consistent, meaning it always does the exact same shift pattern every time you watch it.

Anyway, I have no idea how to fix it, but there is something going on whether it is the source or the tv's processing. And this is a completely different issue (it looks different) than any 48Hz flicker, as I can get my tv to do that as well.

Is it perhaps that any small errors or problems in the source are just getting amplified?
post #187 of 271
edit
post #188 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

IMO the "floating black" issue is a design choice by panasonic. To reduce banding in low APL scenes (increase gray levels), they vary the number of subfields (pulses) depending on APL (average picture level). The setup (reset) for each pulse adds background luminence (black level). Therefore, as the number of pulses vary, the black level varies as well.

As for the flicker issue. I have no idea?

You could be right that there different issues. But D-Nice has posted from a Panasonic engineer pen pal of his that it isn't by design but a algorithm problem (floating blacks).

Now for the flicker issue? Yes I proved my plasma behaved differently with same size, model, and set up A+B swithching with same DVD player.

For the ones have this issue (for the last 3 years I know of) ask why nothing has been done or said about this issue or rectified.

I don't claim to know why this is but I've lived it and read about for quite sometime.
post #189 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

You could be right that there different issues. But D-Nice has posted from a Panasonic engineer pen pal of his that it isn't by design but a algorithm problem (floating blacks).

When I say design choice I mean they needed to vary the number of pulses to improve low level grayscale and they had to comprimise the black level stability to do so.
post #190 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

You could be right that there different issues. But D-Nice has posted from a Panasonic engineer pen pal of his that it isn't by design but a algorithm problem (floating blacks).

Now for the flicker issue? Yes I proved my plasma behaved differently with same size, model, and set up A+B swithching with same DVD player.

For the ones have this issue (for the last 3 years I know of) ask why nothing has been done or said about this issue or rectified.

I don't claim to know why this is but I've lived it and read about for quite sometime.

It appears that it is not with all plasmas they make and not even all plasmas within a specific model either. It does seem to be more of a problem with the 85u models compared to the 80u models (which I have) based on posts. I do not have this problem and I am sure many do not have this problem but it seems some DO have this problem and I hope there is a way to solve this issue for them.

More people come to these forums (outside of forum regulars) to voice issues/problems so knowing that, I would think this problem is not even close to half of them, and likely closer to about 10% (as a guess). I am fairly sure some of it is source related but that is excluding those that have the issue with BD or HD DVD players playing a pretty pure (as much as a home system can have) source.

There in lies the problem I think with finding a solution. Cable sources are not even equal from house to house with the same service, never mind across various cable companies and SAT companies. I have said it before and I will say it again, HDTVs are more and more like computers each year and there are so many variables to various problems. It is getting harder and harder to troubleshoot issues because the number of variables seem to keep rising.

All that being said, I will say that there should be no reasonable reason WHY so many HDTVs have issues displaying a quality picture IMO. It almost seems like we are taking two steps back for every step forward since people started buying HDTVs compared to SD CRT tube TVs to me.

When I bought my first HDTV back in 11/2004 I went through 6 TVs before I found one that basically had no issues (except I hated the silver speakers), so I have kept it all this time. I recently bought a 50pz80u plasma to replace it and I seem to be lucky tis time with the first one bought. I will stick with this and go as long as I can before replacing it with another HDTV. That is until the upgrade bug bites again.

It is a sickness I think.
post #191 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

When I say design choice I mean they needed to vary the number of pulses to improve low level grayscale and they had to comprimise the black level stability to do so.

I've always respected your thoughts. And I believe your spot on here and thanks for explaining in detail.

For the brightness changing issue? Who knows if related or what.
post #192 of 271
some people are pointing out that some have this "issue" and some dont.

while others argue that it's deliberate (meaning then that every display would have it euqally and not just a random occurence).

which leads me to wonder, some are pointing out how few people actually are complaining of/have this issue, could it just be that they dont notice and the oens that complain do?

A thought about that, while many people so far have simply gotten a set "without" the problem, has anyone that has had the problem successfully exchange it out for a set without it? The fact that it seems like everyone that has had the problem cant escape it even after several exchanges makes me wonder if it's just that they notice it and others do not?
post #193 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post

some people are pointing out that some have this "issue" and some dont.

while others argue that it's deliberate (meaning then that every display would have it euqally and not just a random occurence).

which leads me to wonder, some are pointing out how few people actually are complaining of/have this issue, could it just be that they dont notice and the oens that complain do?

A thought about that, while many people so far have simply gotten a set "without" the problem, has anyone that has had the problem successfully exchange it out for a set without it? The fact that it seems like everyone that has had the problem cant escape it even after several exchanges makes me wonder if it's just that they notice it and others do not?

I think this might be a possibility like the rainbow issues for about 3-5% of the people who watch a DLP with a color wheel.

I usually notice light changes or flickering after going through 6 differnt DLPs back in 2004 before finding one that didn't have a shimmer so I think I would notice the You Tube video issues shown in those videos. I just do not have this problem, but I would think some people are more sensitive to this issue OR this could also mean that the source or slightly possibly the electricity from the wall are the issue. Those two possibilities could explain why some people have not gotten rid of the issue by exchanging the display also.
post #194 of 271
I was able to play around with my set last night and have a few observations. I have a couple dvds that do this color shift (bright area changes color over and over) at the exact same time and same pattern each time I play them. I don't see this shift in color on an older samsung plasma or the sony bravia ht projector we have.

I was able to see this problem every time in THX picture mode and changing any setting (CATS, Brightness up/down, Picture up/down, etc.) did not have any effect. However, as soon as I switched to the Custom setting, I could not see the problem any more. This could be either due to the presets of the Custom setting or maybe it's just not as noticable b/c Custom is rather bright overall compared to THX.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else has noticed that the problem goes away/is less noticeable on different picture settings? Also, I don't believe that this is a problem that only some people can see (I have shown 5 people what I was talking about and they all see it on certain material) but more of a processing issue on certain material.
post #195 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post

A thought about that, while many people so far have simply gotten a set "without" the problem, has anyone that has had the problem successfully exchange it out for a set without it? The fact that it seems like everyone that has had the problem cant escape it even after several exchanges makes me wonder if it's just that they notice it and others do not?

I had the reverse happen -- I had a pz80 that was returned for a problem other than color flicker (uneven display lighting). I used the set for 300+ hours before it was returned, and never once noticed the flicker. On my replacement set (same exact model, same wall outlet, same devices plugged into it, etc.), I was able to spot the flicker almost immediately.

I suppose it's possible that I just didn't notice the flicker on my first set, but I'm more inclined to believe that the flicker is a bona-fide defect, and not something that is always present but only seen by some.

(EDIT: One possibility that could explain why some people can't seem to escape the problem even after several returns: when a customer requests a return, particularly on an item that's prone to lots of returns, it's not unheard of for the retailer or manufacturer to issue a refurbished or previously-returned item as the "new" replacement. There could be a pool of sets with the flicker problem out there that are constantly being circulated around.)

I have yet another replacement coming to me on Thursday (this time a pz85) so I'll be sure to post here when I've spent some time with it to determine if it has the color flicker or not.

And just to chime into the flicker vs. floating blacks debate: in my experience, the two are DEFINITELY separate issues. I've experienced floating blacks on both my pz80s, but the flicker only happened on one. Interestingly, though, the set that had the flicker had notably worse floating blacks than my first set. When on Theater mode, my first set's floating blacks were almost completely eliminated. I'm crossing my fingers for the same to happen on my new pz85.
post #196 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by aKa DaShiznit View Post

Well i had an app for today between 1pm and 5pm but instead received a call from the same service guy .... He said he's not gonna bother coming back since he did what they asked and replaced both the 'A' and 'D' boards.

He is gonna set me up for the Field Service Representative ... won't be available to come for another 2 weeks, so the only thing I can do is wait for their call to set up an app with them.

I wonder if this is a coincidence or a pattern:
3 wks ago I demanded another visit from the Concierge, who got scheduled for a wk later; who didn't show up, nor call to say he wouldn't. The subcontractor said the person who make the schedule is on vacation for a week (which would have ended the week before last), and would call me when they got back. Now, a week after she's back, still no call.

I do believe I'm being blown off. I wonder if that's policy now
post #197 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firstt1mer View Post

I wonder if this is a coincidence or a pattern:
3 wks ago I demanded another visit from the Concierge, who got scheduled for a wk later; who didn't show up, nor call to say he wouldn't. The subcontractor said the person who make the schedule is on vacation for a week (which would have ended the week before last), and would call me when they got back. Now, a week after she's back, still no call.

I do believe I'm being blown off. I wonder if that's policy now

In my experience with the concierge for the issues I had on a 600U plasma, they were fairly good. I doubt you are intentionally being ignored. In my case, I definitely had to nag them more than I would have hoped - there were a few times I was told that someone would get back to me and never did. So keep calling.

Unfortunately it looks like I will be dealing with them again soon. In addition to the flicker, my HDMI 1 input is having problems (see main 85U thread). I did find another good DVD scene with the flicker where it's quite evident.

I honestly find the argument of "well, this set was designed for Blu-ray, these problems are due to source material" crazy. If other brands and models can handle upconverted SD just fine, there is no reason this set shouldn't. Heck my $300 LCD doesn't flicker, even though it's overall picture quality is of course not as good.
post #198 of 271
Hello all,

I am from Ireland and I have been following this thread with interest hoping to find a solution for this problem. I have the European version of the PZ80. But it seems like there is going to be no solution. Anyway, Two days ago I got very frustrated with everything and tried to fix the problem myself. I use this plasma as a computer monitor too, and, whenever I opened notepad and internet explorer on a dark webpage then some of my icons on the desktop flickered like crazy. And sometimes on the xbox360 playing games I could notice flickering too, most of all on the cutscenes in halo3. And you know the way when you look at one side of the screen you can see the flicker on the other side? Yeah? Well that was really bad for me.

Why am I telling you all this? Because after getting mad 2 nights ago, I tricked and tinkered with the service menu and the picture settings. Since then I can barely notice any flicker and I haven't been able to get my desktops icons to flicker at all!!

this is what I did, remember it involves going into the service menu though!!

First I tried to make the room as near as I could to the brightness I most often use when watching movies or using the PC. Then I went into the service menu by holding down the V- button and pressing 0 on the remote three times quickly. you scroll through the various options by hitting 1 and through the various picture modes (like cinema, normal, etc) by pressing 9.
Ok when you are in the service menu press 1 once and there will be an option to change contrast, and further down you will see instructions on how to do things. If you press the yellow button on your remote it will find the best contrast ratio. Once it has done that use the volume key to change the value up or down by one. Then hit OK on your remote to write that setting to memory. Hit 9 then to change to the next picture mode and do the same thing again. I did this for all picture modes, except for ECO (which is called Auto in the service menu)

When you have done that, using the AV button on the remote and change to whatever HDMI or AV inputs you are using, and do the contrast adjust for each mode again. Repeat this for every input you are using. You might get strange colours when adjusting the HDMI inputs, but don't worry about it. and remember to hit ok each time you make a change so that it writes it to memory.

When you have finished physically switch off the TV and then turn it on again.

Ok, then you need to reproduce the flickering/strobing if possible. If you can't reproduce it or you notice a big reduction in it, then you can stop because I think that's the best you can get. But if you are still getting the flickering then open up the menu and go into picture options. then adjust the sharpness up or down until the flickering stops. Repeat this for every input that you have the flickering on. For me it was a different sharpness for each one. I had orginally the sharpness turned down to zero on all inputs.

Now, I don't know which of the two things reduces the problem!! So maybe if you are nervous about going into the service menu just adjust the sharpness in the picture menu and see if that helps. For me, it was a combination of the two as I had to look hard to notice the flicker after adjusting the service menu.

LOL of course I can't promise that any of these things will work for you. You have the American version of the TV, so maybe the firmware is different, I know your picture menu is different. It worked for me and I am now really happy with my TV again
post #199 of 271
Was planning on buying a Panny 42. Now Im not because of this issue. Kinda sucks cuz I wanted a 42" 1080p plasma. But Im not willing to go through these kinda issues. Guess I have to look elsewhere.
post #200 of 271
There is no TV without issues.

this is a superb TV, you might not even notice the problem or have the problem. Even with the flicker the TV is still amazing. I tested a lot of 42 inch screens both LCD and Plasma and this was the best within my budget.

you will not be dissappointed with the TV.
post #201 of 271
Steevo, realize that those of us experiencing a problem are a vocal minority. Read the official thread for plenty of problem-free satisfied owners. Besides the flicker defect, I have nothing but good to say about this set. In the 42" 1080p class, you can't do much better, especially for the price.
post #202 of 271
reaper12, thanks for posting your findings! Unfortunately, the replacement set I got today appears to have the flicker so I may be trying your advice once it's properly broken in.

Can any of the resident experts comment on why exactly reaper12's solution might work?
post #203 of 271
human, do you have any examples of material you are getting the flicker on?
post #204 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5 View Post

I think this might be a possibility like the rainbow issues for about 3-5% of the people who watch a DLP with a color wheel.

I usually notice light changes or flickering after going through 6 differnt DLPs back in 2004 before finding one that didn't have a shimmer so I think I would notice the You Tube video issues shown in those videos. I just do not have this problem, but I would think some people are more sensitive to this issue OR this could also mean that the source or slightly possibly the electricity from the wall are the issue. Those two possibilities could explain why some people have not gotten rid of the issue by exchanging the display also.

ok then, but it just seems a bit strange that no one that has noticed the issue and has certain scenes they recreat it on directly have been able to get a set that doesnt do it, making me think it's just people that dont notice it and/or people who didnt cull specific scenes to test it with at first.

but it would be nice if you finally got some hard idea of a fix, the issue or someone who had it, got a new set, retested and it was completely fixed, then it would at least prove those that dont have it probably really dont have it.
post #205 of 271
Spincut as I said in my post I had two sure ways of getting the flicker to appear. The first way, when using my PC through HDMI, was to open up a dark webpage and notepad or wordpad side by side then some of my icons would start flickering like crazy. The second way, using my PC through the VGA input, was just to open up any webpage, the flickering would drive you crazy!! It was so bad I had stopped using the vga input.

Since I changed the service menu settings and the sharpness for each input I haven't been able to get my icons to flicker at all. And the VGA is useable now, and doesn't feel like I am straining my eyes. There is still a slight flicker but nothing much and for me it's fine now.

Human, good luck I hope it works, because nobody else has tried this. If it works for two people, then maybe it might work for everyone. The most important thing is to make sure you apply the settings for each input in the service menu. Then find a scene or TV program that you know gets the flicker and to raise or lower sharpness until the flicker goes away. Again you have to do this for each input. The worst settings are sharpness at 0 or maxed out. Good luck
post #206 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBoomer View Post

human, do you have any examples of material you are getting the flicker on?

I've been meaning to take video, but so far have not had a chance. I can remember a few specific instances of flicker:

- A scene in No Country For Old Men (BluRay) where a dead man was sitting in a truck. Half of his face was in a darker shadow than the other half, and the shadowed half was flickering like crazy.

- A scene in Dumb & Dumber (HD cable channel, but the movie itself was upscaled) where Harry was standing in front of their van (the one that was converted to look like a sheepdog) at a gas station. The van itself was flickering back and forth.

- A scene on an HD cable channel in which a hostess was standing and talking to the camera in kind of a dimly-lit room. Every so often, her face would flicker from one shade to another.

The condition seems to occur most on darker colors, particularly browns and tans, and usually in scenes that have a high contrast level. It's possible to not encounter it for hours if the material you're viewing doesn't have any scenes that fit this criteria. For example, the scene I mentioned from No Country For Old Men was only one of two or three brief moments of flicker in the entire film, so I wasn't really bothered by it, and could almost forget about it. But then I watch something that has more flicker-prone scenes, and then all of a sudden it's happening every five seconds and completely ruining the experience.

Reaper, thanks again for the info. I will definitely try your method after the TV has been broken in (don't want to try it now in case the "best contrast ratio" is different after the break-in time).
post #207 of 271
OK well I just received a call from concierge today and they want to just exchange out my set. They asked me how I felt about that and I said well with a whole new set comes a whole new possible set of problems and I was not looking forward to a whole new break in period. I'll have to wait and see how the new set is and hope for the best, but hey I was honest with them.

All I have to do is fax a copy of my Best Buy receipt to them and its just a matter of when the set becomes available for delivery. They also asked me what the website was that I had mentioned that had the other people with the same issue. I told the avsforum.com and to just search by model and they should see owners threads among others that they can search to see what people say.

I hope this means they recognize a problem and want to look further into a solution.
post #208 of 271
There was an issue with the 58" 75U that costco sold. It turned out that they were using the 42" PSU.
post #209 of 271
Should have my new set in about 2 weeks. I'm trying to be optimistic about it, hell what are the chances I'd get another bad set the 2nd time around if there are those that have no issue? Well I'm hoping that I don't end up getting a set with different problems either like the bad black levels or bad phosphor lag, cause my current one got no other problems but the flicker.

I am also surprised that not only did they call me back quicker than they said but that they're gonna swap the set so easily?! I'm glad they're trying to reslove it insead of ignore it like I thought they would. Well I can say I'm pretty impressed with Panasonic and the way they handled this for me and gives me confidence in them and their products for future purchases.

Here's to hoping I don't join the 2-4 exchanged group. Also to those with the same problem, here's to you getting and easy solution like mine!!!
post #210 of 271
well considering we are yet to get a realy beleivable reason, origin, or source for the issue it's hard to say.

I mean, I'd be curious to know if it is indeed a "bad batch" whether that's an earlier one, or perhaps the earlier sets were made better or different (which often seems the case so it does the best it can in reviews) and then most sets made in later batches were otherwise.
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