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The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 748

post #22411 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

"Dexter" on BD is video and and should not be output at 1080/24. Regular BD movies, which are filmed-based, are best output at 1080/24 because that is how they are encoded. But some blu-rays, like TV shows and concerts, are video-based and they're encoded at 1080/60, so they should be displayed that way. It's also important to make sure your Kuro isn't also applying unwanted frame-rate processing. Your best bet is usually to set the Pure Cinema Film Mode to STANDARD or ADVANCE.

Thanks progprog. I'll try that out this weekend and see how it works. Just out of curiosity, how did you know that BD tv shows were 1080/60? I searched for it and couldnt find anything. The only thing I could find was 1080p/MPEG-4 AVC. Should I assume that movies like "Up" should be on the same setting as well?
post #22412 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thompson25 View Post

Thanks progprog. I'll try that out this weekend and see how it works. Just out of curiosity, how did you know that BD tv shows were 1080/60? I searched for it and couldnt find anything. The only thing I could find was 1080p/MPEG-4 AVC. Should I assume that movies like "Up" should be on the same setting as well?

TV shows are generally recorded on video, which is a medium that encodes at 30 frames per second (fps). It's a format specifically meant for the legacy TVs we've watched for decades, which only used a 60Hz refresh rate. (Refresh rate needs to be an even multiple of the content's frame rate.) Blu-ray movies will typically be 1080p/24, reflecting the original film frame rate, while video-based blu-rays (TV shows) retain the original 30fps frame rate of the medium on which they were recorded. Most newer TVs, like our Kuros, can handle both types of signals and simply engage the appropriate refresh rate for the signal.

The 1080/60 and 1080/24 designations can be a little confusing. With 1080/60, it's 30fps content refreshed at 60Hz, so the label reflects the refresh rate. With 1080/24, it's 24fps content displayed (in our case) at 72Hz, so the label reflects the frame rate. I guess this inconsistency in the labeling could be because 24fps isn't always refreshed at a given rate....it depends on the capability of the TV being used. Our Kuros use 72Hz, but other TVs commonly use 96Hz, 120Hz, or even 240Hz (all just multiples of 24).
post #22413 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowknight View Post

Purchased a 101FD from Best Buy tonight, to be delivered on Saturday. Not totally happy with the experience though, best price I could get was [price removed, forgot board policy], and despite what others have said, they wouldn' throw in the stand for the tv. I pointed out that it's missing a tuner (I use OTA only and I would have preferred it) and speakers (nice backup if the receiver ever has issues) but they wouldn't drop the price further. Also, they have 34 Pioneers in the warehouse and 1,500 stands; you'd think they'd take the opportunity to free up some warehouse space for a stand that isn't selling. They threw in delivery a 1 cent without asking for it. This week, I'm going to look for a media rack/tv stand that lets you mount the TV to it, to make sure the TV doesn't get knocked over by one of my cats when it's delivered. When I get the set, is there anything I need to do to break it in? Or can I just go ahead and use it?

You should now be a BB premium rewards member so you should get a 45 day return policy. I suggest monitoring the prices every week to see if they drop in the 45 day period so that you can get a price match. I did this with speakers I purchased at BB and saved additional money.

For the first 150 hours I watched my Kuro in full screen size using the pure mode. I avoided any static images and occassionly used the white scroll bar; works great now - no issues.
post #22414 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

TV shows are generally recorded on video, which is a medium that encodes at 30 frames per second (fps). It's a format specifically meant for the legacy TVs we've watched for decades, which only used a 60Hz refresh rate. (Refresh rate needs to be an even multiple of the content's frame rate.) Blu-ray movies will typically be 1080p/24, reflecting the original film frame rate, while video-based blu-rays (TV shows) retain the original 30fps frame rate of the medium on which they were recorded. Most newer TVs, like our Kuros, can handle both types of signals and simply engage the appropriate refresh rate for the signal.

The 1080/60 and 1080/24 designations can be a little confusing. With 1080/60, it's 30fps content refreshed at 60Hz, so the label reflects the refresh rate. With 1080/24, it's 24fps content displayed (in our case) at 72Hz, so the label reflects the frame rate. I guess this inconsistency in the labeling could be because 24fps isn't always refreshed at a given rate....it depends on the capability of the TV being used. Our Kuros use 72Hz, but other TVs commonly use 96Hz, 120Hz, or even 240Hz (all just multiples of 24).

Hi Prog:

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation. I use D-Nice's ISF settings (PC=Advanced) on my 111 and, when I watch HD series like Dexter on cable, I get judder very similar to watching 24FPS. When watching other video sources, however, I don't get judder. Examples would be anything shot with HD cameras (newscasts, sports, etc.). All series I watch on cable have some judder, just like Dexter. When I watch video-based DVD's, such as concerts, there is no judder.

Any thoughts on why the inconsistency would be appreciated.
post #22415 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Boden View Post

All series I watch on cable have some judder, just like Dexter. When I watch video-based DVD's, such as concerts, there is no judder.

Any thoughts on why the inconsistency would be appreciated.

It's not uncommon for prime-time dramas to be shot on film or, returning to the original query, on HD video at 1080p24. Try alternate settings for PureCinema. Off or Smooth will stop trying to do inverse telecine or do interpolation to get rid of 24p motion artifacts
post #22416 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thompson25 View Post

Just out of curiosity, how did you know that BD tv shows were 1080/60?

IMDB may help you there. E.g. for Dexter they say:
Quote:


Camera
Arriflex 435 (high-speed shots)
Sony F23 (2008)
Sony HDW-F900 (modified by Panavision)

Film negative format (mm/video inches)
35 mm (high-speed shots)
Video (HDTV)

Cinematographic process
HDCAM SR
HDCAM (1080p/24)
Spherical

Printed film format
Video (HDTV)

Aspect ratio
1.78 : 1

So we see that Dexter is sourced from 1080p24 video and 35mm film.

Cinematographers and directors are schooled in the limitations of 24p. If you see motion artifacts it's because the director/editor/colorist decided they were acceptable.
post #22417 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

It's not uncommon for prime-time dramas to be shot on film or, returning to the original query, on HD video at 1080p24. Try alternate settings for PureCinema. Off or Smooth will stop trying to do inverse telecine or do interpolation to get rid of 24p motion artifacts

Thanks for the suggestion. I will try that sometime. I have to go into the ISF settings with ControlCal to change Pure Cinema. I might try using ISF Auto with PC set to off or smooth as I don't use Auto for anything at the moment.
post #22418 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

It's not uncommon for prime-time dramas to be shot on film or, returning to the original query, on HD video at 1080p24. Try alternate settings for PureCinema. Off or Smooth will stop trying to do inverse telecine or do interpolation to get rid of 24p motion artifacts

Ah ha! So some some TVs show are on film....I spoke too soon. (I'd never seen "Dexter" but assumed it was a typical video-based TV show.) This seems like just one more reason to use the STANDARD setting. STANDARD doesn't do inverse telecine either.) Frame rate/refresh rate processing just seems to cause more problems than it's worth. I haven't used ADVANCE on my panels in well over a year.
post #22419 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Ah ha! So some some TVs show are on film....I spoke too soon. (I'd never seen "Dexter" but assumed it was a typical video-based TV show.) This seems like just one more reason to use the STANDARD setting. STANDARD doesn't do inverse telecine either.) Frame rate/refresh rate processing just seems to cause more problems than it's worth. I haven't used ADVANCE on my panels in well over a year.

Now that I think of it, I seem to remember D-Nice recommended that PC be set to off with cable boxes.
post #22420 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Boden View Post

I have to go into the ISF settings with ControlCal to change Pure Cinema.

That's one of the reasons I have (and keep) Pure calibrated. I'm typically disinterested in changing an ISFccc mode just to fiddle with something.
post #22421 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

That's one of the reasons I have (and keep) Pure calibrated. I'm typically disinterested in changing an ISFccc mode just to fiddle with something.

I've never understood why Film Mode is locked in the ISF modes. It's been a pretty big inconvenience for some people.
post #22422 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

I've never understood why Film Mode is locked in the ISF modes. It's been a pretty big inconvenience for some people.

Can you elaborate on this comment? The way I'm reading it, and the reason for my concern, is that you can't change the film mode when using an ISF mode? I've purchased the patch and I'm waiting for installation and calibration so I don't have any personal experience with the ISF modes yet. I would hate to be locked on anything but OFF for the film mode as I don't care for some of the results the others provide.
post #22423 of 30268
I can't say that I have ever noticed this issue on my 141 in ISF night mode.
post #22424 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrpeterson5 View Post

Can you elaborate on this comment? The way I'm reading it, and the reason for my concern, is that you can't change the film mode when using an ISF mode? I've purchased the patch and I'm waiting for installation and calibration so I don't have any personal experience with the ISF modes yet. I would hate to be locked on anything but OFF for the film mode as I don't care for some of the results the others provide.

You can't change it from within the User Menu....you have to use ControlCAL to change it. An easy workaround for some is to set ISF-Day and ISF-Night exactly the same on a given input, but with different Film Mode settings. That way, switching between those AV modes is effectively just switching Film Modes.

You probably don't want it OFF for BD sources.
post #22425 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

I can't say that I have ever noticed this issue on my 141 in ISF night mode.

What issue?
post #22426 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

You can't change it from within the User Menu....you have to use ControlCAL to change it. An easy workaround for some is to set ISF-Day and ISF-Night exactly the same on a given input, but with different Film Mode settings. That way, switching between those AV modes is effectively just switching Film Modes.

You probably don't want it OFF for BD sources.

Wow, didn't realize that. Thank you for explaining this. So if I set ISF-Day to OFF and ISF-Night to STANDARD on the same input, I can then watch my S3 TiVO on Day (or OFF) and my Sony BDP on Night (or STANDARD)? Effectively everything else is the same. Got it. Thanks for that tip - big help when the calibration comes along.
post #22427 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrpeterson5 View Post

Wow, didn't realize that. Thank you for explaining this. So if I set ISF-Day to OFF and ISF-Night to STANDARD on the same input, I can then watch my S3 TiVO on Day (or OFF) and my Sony BDP on Night (or STANDARD)? Effectively everything else is the same. Got it. Thanks for that tip - big help when the calibration comes along.

Assuming both of those sources come in on one input, yes. That's the easy solution for these situations where you want to use different film modes on a given input.

For your TiVo, though, you don't need to turn it OFF to avoid inverse telecine processing. STANDARD will function exactly the same way, so you could just leave it on that all the time.
post #22428 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Assuming both of those sources come in on one input, yes. That's the easy solution for these situations where you want to use different film modes on a given input.

For your TiVo, though, you don't need to turn it OFF to avoid inverse telecine processing. STANDARD will function exactly the same way, so you could just leave it on that all the time.

Thanks again. That would actually work better because then I can set both ISF-Day and ISF-Night to be STANDARD, and then have them calibrated for their intended purpose since the room my Kuro lives in is polluted with daytime light. Thanks again for the explanation - I like the outcome. And I will set it to STANDARD tonight to try it out. I think I only looked at ADVANCED before and I didn't like that.
post #22429 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Assuming both of those sources come in on one input, yes. That's the easy solution for these situations where you want to use different film modes on a given input.

For your TiVo, though, you don't need to turn it OFF to avoid inverse telecine processing. STANDARD will function exactly the same way, so you could just leave it on that all the time.

Same for a DTV HD DVR? Leave at standard?

bob
post #22430 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Same for a DTV HD DVR? Leave at standard?

bob

If you don't want the Kuro to do any inverse telecine processing when displaying film-based sources, any film mode except ADVANCE will accomplish that. So yes, STANDARD is a good choice.
post #22431 of 30268
I know it has been elaborated in the past, and I am still confused, but I'll ask again if I may: what is the difference between off and standard? It seems to me they have a lot in common.
post #22432 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

I know it has been elaborated in the past, and I am still confused, but I'll ask again if I may: what is the difference between off and standard? It seems to me they have a lot in common.

For TV sources, which generally "max out" at 1080i/60, those two settings do have a lot in common.....they work the same way. It's with 1080/24 sources that they differ. STANDARD will display those sources "as is" and just engage the 72Hz refresh rate. (So for 1080/24 signals, STANDARD is actually just like ADVANCE.) But OFF outputs everything at 1080p/60....even blu-ray signals coming in at 1080/24 would be converted (telecined) to 1080p/60.

STANDARD is the closest thing to "native" in the sense that it displays all signals without frame rate processing.
post #22433 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowknight View Post

Purchased a 101FD from Best Buy tonight, to be delivered on Saturday. Not totally happy with the experience though, best price I could get was [price removed, forgot board policy], and despite what others have said, they wouldn' throw in the stand for the tv. I pointed out that it's missing a tuner (I use OTA only and I would have preferred it) and speakers (nice backup if the receiver ever has issues) but they wouldn't drop the price further. Also, they have 34 Pioneers in the warehouse and 1,500 stands; you'd think they'd take the opportunity to free up some warehouse space for a stand that isn't selling. They threw in delivery a 1 cent without asking for it. This week, I'm going to look for a media rack/tv stand that lets you mount the TV to it, to make sure the TV doesn't get knocked over by one of my cats when it's delivered. When I get the set, is there anything I need to do to break it in? Or can I just go ahead and use it?

Shadowknight,
They didn't have to throw it! It's FREE. I just pulled the plug on 101FD from BestBuy. They even had 3 in stock at the store Will be delivered tomorrow morning. I did ask if there any current promotions on Pioneer Elite (thx WiWavelength) and the guy said ""NOpe", so I asked him about the price of the stand alone, he quoted $200 for it, so I told him to add both and give me total for both...and watched the magic began To his surprise the stand was $0.00. I'm sure you can still adjust that.

P.S. Now I'm complete Pioneer Elitist! 101FD/SC25/23FD
post #22434 of 30268
Hey thanks a lot ProgProg! It really was that simple. Just selected 1080i on the dvr and Auto select is now back and all is good. People like you who actually give great quick fixes make this forum very useful. Thanks again and have a great St. Patty's Day.
post #22435 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

For TV sources, which generally "max out" at 1080i/60, those two settings do have a lot in common.....they work the same way. It's with 1080/24 sources that they differ. STANDARD will display those sources "as is" and just engage the 72Hz refresh rate. (So for 1080/24 signals, STANDARD is actually just like ADVANCE.) But OFF outputs everything at 1080p/60....even blu-ray signals coming in at 1080/24 would be converted (telecined) to 1080p/60.

STANDARD is the closest thing to "native" in the sense that it displays all signals without frame rate processing.


... Crystal clear, many thanks.

As the OP, I am experiencing the same with my panel.
'Standard' will be the chosen setting.
post #22436 of 30268
The legend D-Nice will be calibrating my 111 over the weekend. Can't wait. I will report post-cal, but I am sure it will be fantastic.
post #22437 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryB1124 View Post

The legend D-Nice will be calibrating my 111 over the weekend. Can't wait. I will report post-cal, but I am sure it will be fantastic.

Hi Barry. If you don't mind would you be able to ask D-Nice how a ISF calibrated 111, like yours, compares to a ISF calibrated 101 and KRP-500M. Will the ISF'd 111 look just as good as the ISF'd 500M or is the gap wider than I think it is because of the 500M's advanced calibration abilities.

You may post here or PM me if that is okay with you.

Thanks
post #22438 of 30268
As much as I hate to keep bringing up the DSE issue, I tried the earlier poster's cleaning advice to no visible result, so I finally bit the bullet and called Pioneer. Pioneer want me to capture a picture or video, but all that I have is an iPhone and a poor quality point and shoot and I'm having issues recording the problem. Has anyone had any luck capturing something similar, and if so, what tips can you give me?
post #22439 of 30268
I have had my 60 inch elite for a year and a half now. How much longer till my tv is beat out by another tv. I don't see any tv topping the elite models for a few years
post #22440 of 30268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptwo View Post

As much as I hate to keep bringing up the DSE issue, I tried the earlier poster's cleaning advice to no visible result, so I finally bit the bullet and called Pioneer. Pioneer want me to capture a picture or video, but all that I have is an iPhone and a poor quality point and shoot and I'm having issues recording the problem. Has anyone had any luck capturing something similar, and if so, what tips can you give me?

I tried this as well and nothing changed on mine either, but I'm not sure how severe mine is compared to yours.

What is the model of your tv? When do you see the DSE the most? By DSE I mean horizontal lines or streaks in the AR coating. Some people get this confused with blotching. Post # 308 below shows how bad it can look on a static image(mine doesn't look nearly that bad). This is the best I think I've seen as far as trying to capture it in a photo.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post16260120

On my pro-101 it can be seen when bright light colored images are displayed and the scene pans vertically and is most noticable in gaming. If there is a clear blue sky and the screen pans if I look hard I can see it. If watching regular programing it can be seen mostly on HGTV when they're inside houses and the screen pans on light colered walls. Even then you kind have to be tuned in to see it. The streak that seems to be the most noticable is in the top right of the screen. I seem to remember someone with a 141 that had it stand out the most in a similar spot.

On most regular viewing it is something that if you blink you might miss it and that is why I think a lot of people don't see it which means to them they don't have it. I'm not sure how many people that own these sets use them for gaming and then be drawn away from the game itself to look for or see DSE.
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