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The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 941

post #28201 of 30263
Not all Kuro's are exactly the same with their reset pulse numbers, or algorithms from the factory. Some people reported blacks deepening after so many hours, most stayed the same. Some rose i guess, some went red. Every manufacturer make can't make exactly two of the same performing panels (over a period of time/hours)



Plasma is too volatile and complicated by default.



It happens with all makes of plasma displays not just Pioneers - and (will) continue to do so as long as the technology is around.
post #28202 of 30263
I have been enjoying my 151 FD since 2008. I had it calibrated in the Pure Mode. The picture was outstanding.
Well D-Nice was here on Friday and re-calibrated my 151 and unlocked the ISF modes.
Wow…the picture just pops either in the day or night modes. Glad D-Nice made a visit to my area.
While the calibrated Pure Mode was great I think the calibrated ISF modes take the picture to another level.
post #28203 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

Thanks. I wonder if it's the type of thing where through warranty they would even have someone come look at it or if they would claim it's not enough of a problem to even warrant looking into it. There is also some occasional sort of popping noise I hear from time to time. I have heard that same type of popping on someone's samsung LED before and it hasn't had any sort of failure in the years of it happening, but doesn't seem like it should be doing that either.

I'm glad that at least some glowing is normal, though. Even as unimportant as totally black screens are, it still was cool on the hx929 seeing nothing but black. I assume, in a screen of stars the hx929 would be far worse than the pro-111, though. When it comes down to it, due to my various particular concerns when finding a tv, to me it's worth the overpayment I made for the tv, but it would just be depressing knowing it has has a defect (if it does).

If d-nice were ever down here, I would be tempted to have him calibrate, as I really think it needs a professional calibration due to some scenes seeming a bit off. But 1. it would be a waste if it "did" end up the panel has issues and 2. I am thinking I won't even think of getting a calibration until the end of the year, due to financial issues. I already went through a hassle even getting this tv, as it is, and paying for the expensive warranty. smile.gif
Where are you located?
post #28204 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCJ View Post

I have been enjoying my 151 FD since 2008. I had it calibrated in the Pure Mode. The picture was outstanding.
Well D-Nice was here on Friday and re-calibrated my 151 and unlocked the ISF modes.
Wow…the picture just pops either in the day or night modes. Glad D-Nice made a visit to my area.
While the calibrated Pure Mode was great I think the calibrated ISF modes take the picture to another level.
I'm glad to hear you are enjoying the ISF modes. You should be able to enjoy that picture for years to come smile.gif
post #28205 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

On a full black screen is when I am noticing the problem to begin with. It looks like an LCD does when on a black screen, where you see the LCD backlight causing it to be lit up. If it were only on cable tv I would think well maybe the transition was so short as to quickly move into a brighter scene and the still frame already had some of the next frame in it, but when watching a blu ray last night it did the same thing. Any time the screen faded to black, it was a much brighter screen than I would assume is normal. ANd it loooked kind of patchy, like a non-uniform LCD would look, which is why I was wondering if IR maybe had something to do with it or actual burn in or something. Unless being right up at it and being in teh dark was palying tricks on my eyes, as far as patchiness.

Something is definitely wrong then if you say it looks like an LCD with full black. Last night i tested a full field black screen using the color slides i have and with a blank input also. It does glow but it's extremely dim. It looks almost black. I also tested this scene from Harry Potter-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X34HPAxlyd8

Which is murderous for any display. There's a glow to the bars but nothing distracting. It looks like a very low black. I can't tell where the picture ends and the bars begin.

What do the patches look like? Like an after image or just patches of black? I think the samething happens to me when there's an image on screen and then the it goes black. But my patches are green. I have no idea why this happens. And it only does this sometimes.

Lastly. Maby you were expecting too much as far as black levels go??? smile.gif.......but, you said your ccfl lcd looked darker so.......
Edited by saprano - 3/31/13 at 10:35am
post #28206 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by spwill View Post

I somehow failed to write down the number of hrs when the black level rose. Pretty stupid on my part. Maybe dnice can explain why certain pioneers have a higher black level after awhile. It seems to be rarer than the red tint but not everyone has a meter to check. As for tweaking voltages, don't do it. I tried it and sure you can lower the black level, but it comes with artifacts you can see clearly after going through the internal test patterns. I went back to the defaults rather than risking damage to the panel.

I'm guessing some panels do it on purpose depending on how the panel loses brightness. My display doesn't look like it has any black level rise yet. Hopefully it stays that way.

No way i'm changing anything that has to do with voltages.
post #28207 of 30263
Try calibration. It's worth the cost.
post #28208 of 30263
D-nice, right now in TN.

And yeah it's defintiely not dim/almost black for me when all lights are out. Beyond depressing. All along I thought the picture looked "good" in some ways, but didn't think it looked as special as it was supposed to. Some people would say they took back panasonic plasmas, the hx929, etc... due to none of them "wowing" them and I was pretty sure this picture was not what they considered a wow factor type of picture.

And I probably paid as much as he did to originally buy the set because he got it in mid-2009, likely when it was on a good sale. It's not so much that I can't live with how it looks, but I could have got tvs half the price which won't freakin light up so much. I originally planned to try the ST60, which would cost much less than I paid, but like i said, the pannys do have more noticeable flicker for me. But heck with whatever issue this has, that may be what is reducing the flicker to begin with for all I know. Too bad I didn't need a tv in 2008/2009, so never noticed this model back then, because now there's obviously not many chances to get another one. So even if I did, by miracle, get money back, I would then be unlikely to find another which wouldn't have its own issues. Although I figure about any would have better black level. unless something could cause this other than a bad black level. The black level "looks" good to me with any light, for whatever reason. Also, when i turned the tv ON today, after not using for about 24 hours, it had some IR immediately.
post #28209 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

D-nice, right now in TN.

And yeah it's defintiely not dim/almost black for me when all lights are out. Beyond depressing. All along I thought the picture looked "good" in some ways, but didn't think it looked as special as it was supposed to. Some people would say they took back panasonic plasmas, the hx929, etc... due to none of them "wowing" them and I was pretty sure this picture was not what they considered a wow factor type of picture.

And I probably paid as much as he did to originally buy the set because he got it in mid-2009, likely when it was on a good sale. It's not so much that I can't live with how it looks, but I could have got tvs half the price which won't freakin light up so much. I originally planned to try the ST60, which would cost much less than I paid, but like i said, the pannys do have more noticeable flicker for me. But heck with whatever issue this has, that may be what is reducing the flicker to begin with for all I know. Too bad I didn't need a tv in 2008/2009, so never noticed this model back then, because now there's obviously not many chances to get another one. So even if I did, by miracle, get money back, I would then be unlikely to find another which wouldn't have its own issues. Although I figure about any would have better black level. unless something could cause this other than a bad black level. The black level "looks" good to me with any light, for whatever reason. Also, when i turned the tv ON today, after not using for about 24 hours, it had some IR immediately.


It's a pity it's disappointing for you. A couple of thing's definitely sound like they need checked out by a display expert.


The Kuro's have fabulous filters, and look black in any lights on situation practically.

With my last Kuro after it was "fixed" (it had the dreaded red tint - (but it glowed far more than was normal also) - especially compared to just out of box black depth. I struggled to tell it was on even in blackout conditions on a blank input (the displays base MLL) after it was fixed..(and thats before the screen switches off the pixels after 15 or so seconds, with hand on heart i wasn't aware when it had switched off most of the time these go mega huge dark)


But even once the screen warms up (phosphors) if it's been on a while there is an extremely tiny glow that again really has to be studied for. These are normal conditions for Kuro's when operating correctly.

But what you are describing needs help with an expert eye, no doubts about that imho
post #28210 of 30263
yeah, but dont you think the only thing which could even possibly be a problem would be related to the panel itself, and thus nobody would fix it? Did you get yours fixed when it was still either in production or not far out of production?

Not surprisingly, the guy who sold it doesn't want to take it back and said I am just looking for a problem because "this is the elite and has the best black levels". Just because the model is great deosn't mean this specific unit doesn't have problems, obviously.
post #28211 of 30263
somelogin: You did check your color spaces? the effect you describe could be the result of the display being set in RGB 0-255 and the source(s) set to RGB 16-240 (or 16-235, don't remember the exact designation).
post #28212 of 30263
yeah I have the color space back on auto. At one point I did have it set to the one which is for the tv type of RGB (w/e it's called) and the oppo player set to it, as d-nice suggested somewhere and I then watched cable with it still that way and all the colors were messed up and I thought the tv was broken. lol Then realized it may be due to the cable not outputting it that way. So I put it back to auto for now.
post #28213 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

yeah I have the color space back on auto. At one point I did have it set to the one which is for the tv type of RGB (w/e it's called) and the oppo player set to it, as d-nice suggested somewhere and I then watched cable with it still that way and all the colors were messed up and I thought the tv was broken. lol Then realized it may be due to the cable not outputting it that way. So I put it back to auto for now.

It may not be the setting as the Kuros do not read RGB 16-235 color space properly from some devices, it will "read" it as 0-255 in error. If the color space coming in to the Kuro is RGB 16-235 you can manually set the color space on the Kuro to 16-235 to force it to read it properly.

Barry
Edited by blb1215 - 4/1/13 at 1:38pm
post #28214 of 30263
When it gets dark enough to judge this again I'll try it that way to see if there is any difference. I've done it that way before, but that was before I tested this tv in total darkness. I doubt it's the issue, though, because I don't think even the sources are using that setting either.
Edited by somelogin - 4/1/13 at 1:49pm
post #28215 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

yeah I have the color space back on auto. At one point I did have it set to the one which is for the tv type of RGB (w/e it's called) and the oppo player set to it, as d-nice suggested somewhere and I then watched cable with it still that way and all the colors were messed up and I thought the tv was broken. lol Then realized it may be due to the cable not outputting it that way. So I put it back to auto for now.
It is not necessary to change that setting on your display. Owners of the monitors are the ones who need to worry about that setting. Where in TN are you?
post #28216 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

It is not necessary to change that setting on your display. Owners of the monitors are the ones who need to worry about that setting. Where in TN are you?
Close to Memphis.
post #28217 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

Close to Memphis.
I wish you closer. I could have stopped by to see what is going on with your display.
post #28218 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I wish you closer. I could have stopped by to see what is going on with your display.
I wish so, too. And even when I want a calibration on a tv at some point, it's very hard finding any to begin with, and no real way to be sure who is truly good. Obviously people know about you and a few others, and then 99% will be ones not many know anything about.

Also, I wonder if I will have trouble even getting it checked out for repair since the tv is "working". I'm surprised the other person who posted earlier even got someone to deem it a problem rather than insist that it was acting fine.

edit: Oh I see now you're in SC. If only I were on the other end of TN...

I wonder if the problem "must" mean black levels themselves are bad. They sure look good when not in darkness, but maybe they are still not as good as they can be. And I wonder what was done to fix the other poster's. Oh well. About all i can do now, since the guy won't elt me return it is hope someone can figure it out at some point.
Edited by somelogin - 4/1/13 at 3:42pm
post #28219 of 30263
I found an old thread on here, from back when the tvs were still being manufactured, where multiple people mentioned the glow and how they thought it was too much of it for a tv talked about as having such great black levels. All anyone really even suggested was using bias lighting, so sounds like me where even the slightest light makes the bars look black, but I like watching some movies, such as horror movies, in darkness! Also, one mentioned shadow detail being murky, which I feel mine is also, despite the elites said to have such good shadow detail. I wish I knew the best way to have a good chance of a repair person actually admitting and fixing a problem. I figure, especially if done through a warranty, they will just say "looks fine to me", especially if they aren't experienced enough to know how good the black levels should be on this tv.

As far as shadow detail, that could PARTLY be due to it needing a professional calibration, but settings wouldn't have much to do with the black level itself, as mentioned before lowering brightness to -30 didn't make it any darker, so obviously it is unrelated to my settings. I wish there was some way to be sure whoever would check it would know the elites well, thus being less likely to BS that it's working properly.
post #28220 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

yeah, but dont you think the only thing which could even possibly be a problem would be related to the panel itself, and thus nobody would fix it? Did you get yours fixed when it was still either in production or not far out of production?

Not surprisingly, the guy who sold it doesn't want to take it back and said I am just looking for a problem because "this is the elite and has the best black levels". Just because the model is great deosn't mean this specific unit doesn't have problems, obviously.


Nope it's not the panel itself. The panels just sit there idle waiting for information on firing up from within if you know what i mean (driving algorithms)

No, mine was fixed out of production. Problems on my panel stemmed from driving issues (voltage algorithms) Similar to colour correction (calibration) everything in plasma is voltage related one way or other
post #28221 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

I found an old thread on here, from back when the tvs were still being manufactured, where multiple people mentioned the glow and how they thought it was too much of it for a tv talked about as having such great black levels. All anyone really even suggested was using bias lighting, so sounds like me where even the slightest light makes the bars look black, but I like watching some movies, such as horror movies, in darkness! Also, one mentioned shadow detail being murky, which I feel mine is also, despite the elites said to have such good shadow detail. I wish I knew the best way to have a good chance of a repair person actually admitting and fixing a problem. I figure, especially if done through a warranty, they will just say "looks fine to me", especially if they aren't experienced enough to know how good the black levels should be on this tv.

As far as shadow detail, that could PARTLY be due to it needing a professional calibration, but settings wouldn't have much to do with the black level itself, as mentioned before lowering brightness to -30 didn't make it any darker, so obviously it is unrelated to my settings. I wish there was some way to be sure whoever would check it would know the elites well, thus being less likely to BS that it's working properly.

Hi somelogin,
D-Nice, one of the most respected calibrators on the forums, has already stated that 'even' Kuros glow in the dark. This glow should be very low in measured values, lower than any other plasma panels - only the LED backlight LCDs that can fully shut off the drive will actually go black. What you have to remember is that the Human Eyeball (MK 1) is extremely sensitive to low light levels, when viewed in dark surroundings - it's more sensitive than any light meter. The usual advice is to NOT view a direct view screen in total blackout conditions because it causes eye fatigue (as the iris opens and closes as the overall light levels decrease/increase), but to have a weak bias light. This actually enhances black level perception, if setup correctly.
The side bars on 4:3 content, or the top/bottom bars on wider (2.4:1) content, should appear black when there is any content being displayed - unless the bars have been set to go grey (this is an option to reduce uneven pixel wear when the panels are used with a lot of non-native aspect ratio content - maybe someone can tell you how to check your panel setup)
Regards, Mike
post #28222 of 30263
Yes, I pretty much know all of that, but I am almost certain this is more glowing than what d-nice is saying the norm is. My vision is not good to begin with so for me to notice bright bars from like 7 feet away means it's REALLY got to be noticeable. If i were even 2 feet from it I wouldn't notice the dithering most likely, for example.

I wanted to get in and change the grey bar setup and check hours, but I'm not clear on which cables to get and whether that one site still sells licenses or not. Then I have read where people said they used it and it messed up their tvs. The guy who first owned this did use it and I wonder if he could have done something in the menu to cause a problem. I wish the service remotes were available somewhere to make it easier. smile.gif SOme sites say if you go to a certain url on your computer with the elite on your network it will tell hours of use, but it never goes to a page for me.

Also, I know all of that about watching in the dark, but movies are not nearly as enjoyable to me if there is any light at all. I already am thinking about covering the annoying blue light on the elite, for example. Especially for movies taking place in the dark, it's not the same when light is on. But yes, I have a bias light strip of 6500k lights on the back of the tv and use them most of the time.

I'm sure if whoever checks this out knows what they are doing, it will end up being fixed, but that's my main worry is someone who doesn't know enough will be the one they get out here. Otherwise, if the warranty doesn't cover it, I will get them to refund the warranty and pay myself for a repair.
post #28223 of 30263
You can change the gray bars to black by changing the side mask detection in the settings menu.


Did you ever ask how many hours was on the TV, or how long he had it?
Edited by saprano - 4/2/13 at 9:30pm
post #28224 of 30263
yes, but he said he didn't know how many, but only used it "a few hours per week". I just took a chance on it because it's not often you can even find a used one anymore. I didn't ask him when he got it, but I know it was mid 2009 because when he sent some printouts, the manual, etc... it had his original warranty in with it, and had some info written down such as the serial number and purchase date on the warranty and also he had a receipt in there for a blu ray player bought around the same time. SO it's less than 4 years old, which is about the best you can hope for with a used elite anymore.

I'm getting more sure that the black levels overall just aren't right because I was just playing rock band 3, and the blacks didn't look inky, as they do on other tvs I tried. Also, I wonder if the occasional popping noises may give someone here an idea as to what could be wrong. Maybe some certain part would cause that and could affect the blacks too, somehow?

I'm starting to wish I just waited and got an ST60. Right from day 1 the 50ST60 is under $1k! And the ST50 blew me away much more than this set has, but like I said, I noticed flicker easily with it so I'm sure I would with the 60 series as well. Maybe if I could get this fixed, it would be better, but from my particular set vs. the ST50 I tried, the ST50 had better clarity, more pop (with realistic settings), and better blacks. That's why I assumed right off this set has a problem is that it's known for great blacks, hyet NEVER did I see a bright screen when all black on the ST50. I really don't understand how people say even the best 111 blacks are unmatched, though, if it's really 0.01, which other sets have gone below.

Either way, I figure i'm just screwed because I doubt square trade will end up agreeing that this is something they should cover to begin with. The set "works" is what they will say. So, like I said, I may end up having to try to get the warranty refunded and pay myself. I hope someone here may know the best way of me discussing it with them or with someone who repairs to get them to agree it's a problem. Who knows if many people who repair even know the kuros were supposed to be so good, so they may just think it's behaving normally.

Oddly, some content looks better than others, and black levels sometimes seem better or worse to me.
Edited by somelogin - 4/3/13 at 5:17pm
post #28225 of 30263
Depressing reading how great the ST60 is. lol Here i thought I got such a great tv and it's performing worse than something half the price, which I had been waiting on, and which apaprently has little buzz, unlike this, as well.

I used the pixel flipper on the wow disc, and for whatever reason it changed the piucture quite a bit, to seem to be more vivid. Not sure what's up with that. Also I still pay attention to blacks and none ever look inky. Guess I ended up with the 1 in a million duds (not horrible, but compared to others). Skin tones are way off too and I am in enough issues over money to make it where I can't get a calibration yet and even if I could I wouldnt know who is good in the area. Blah.
post #28226 of 30263
You likely did not end up with a dud, The previous owner tweaked settings too much. Get the TV calibrated and it likely will be great.
post #28227 of 30263
I don't think so. Because he had printouts of d-nice info on doing the slides and most modes (all but pure) were set to d-nice settings. And the main settings relevant to black levels are easy to set just with a wow disc, anyway. When I see professional calibratiors give general setting suggestions, I already had my contrast and brightness almost exactly as they came up with in their calibrations. The main things which will be off without a professional one would be colors and grayscalee, I assume. I'm sure as far as those go, it is needing a new calibration (professional), due to changes over the years. But I really doubt it is affecting black level. Anything possible, I guess, though.

There's probably not a way I can easily test black level on my own with rented equipment or something which can be returned, I am assuming? I don't need confirmation to know something is wrong, but it could be possible that it's not exactly the black level itself, maybe. I don't know, but there are multiple things off. How many have to do with settings, who knows. Hopefully the color issues are settings-related.
post #28228 of 30263
The settings are off! Why, we may not know, but we know that!
post #28229 of 30263
But others have said they had the same problem and it was a failure. By the way, is the red push something where the whole picture had a reddish tint? I don't think I have that (my old tv does have a greenish one so I assume I would notice), although I think skin tones have oddly become redder.
post #28230 of 30263
omg why does this subscribe me over and over? Maybe editing is resubscribing me...
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