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The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 944

post #28291 of 30271
Not sure why I thought it entailed a change in voltage. Some other combination of PQ adjustments in the service menu then, I suppose.
post #28292 of 30271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post

In a way I think that folk's quest for infinitely black blacks is a bit misplaced. To me the big issue with these wonderful displays is that they compress the dark end of the spectrum, masking detail in the very dark areas. I think that is the biggest failing of these otherwise near perfect displays.

I think the kuros actually reproduced dark scenes as intended. For example in that Harry Potter scene i mentioned before, on my samsung LCD you can see WAY more stuff. But i don't think it's suppose to be that way. When it's dark outside its not suppose look like a overhead lamp is shining down. It suppose to look near pitch black. I tested scenes from Sherlock Holmes AGOS and my samsung still showed more detail in extremely dark scenes. But it looks wrong and artificial.

Maby this is why people think other TV's have better shadow detail?

I remember this from Thomas J. Norton when he reviewed the 141-
Quote:
Some people (particularly competitors) have argued that Pioneer’s near-black levels are too dark and obscure shadow detail. I don’t agree. If you raise the properly calibrated black level on a Pioneer, it will sometimes reveal a few details that you couldn’t see otherwise, but you can also argue that you aren’t supposed to see them. When it was properly adjusted, this set never lost important, dark-scene visual information.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-elite-kuro-pro-141fd-plasma-hd-monitor-page-2

I was going to make a thread talking about shadow detail and how i think people are expecting the wrong things. IMO.
post #28293 of 30271
Wait a second, people are questioning Kuro's shadow detail quality? What is this BLASPHEMY?

All what's needed is a bit deeper blacks during low contrast scenes, which looks a bit gray-ish.


Also, any of you guys using the Darbee darblet? Is it worth it?
post #28294 of 30271
I just don't see how so many people say the main draw of the kuro and how it's "legendary" is its black levels, but even in the owners thread many people say it doesn't have good low light black levels. I may get my hx929 back out just in case I decide to keep it and sell this one. But the picture seems more natural on the kuro because on the 929 it's all glossy and in real life people and objects aren't glossy..... But it was sure nice seeing total black bars. Only thing is, even on the full array sets, it's still never 100% without light leakage, but, wow, the way this set is glowing in the dark for me, that's as bad as LCD light leakage anyway.
post #28295 of 30271
In comparison to any LCD I've seen, the Kuro has the lowest light output on a black screen of any of them.
post #28296 of 30271
It's just got to be that something is up with this one then. And like I said before, on a totally black screen it looks all patchy to me if I walk up to the screen. Like it's not uniform black, but patches of light like LCD screens do. At least somewhat like them.

Now I messed with the oppo player settings for video output, messed with the kuro ones, and looked at a paused screen of black using hdmi inputs 4, 5, 6, and 7 and all four of them had identical brightness. And it's also the same with various sources (blu ray, tivo, etc...) so the issue is not a source, not video settings, and not the input.

I watched a blu ray (the original movie wasn't HD though so I assume not as good of quality as a recent movie on blu ray) and I still think with a calibration the picture would be good enough for me to keep the tv...., but I obviously want to get the low light black level looking as it's supposed to. I really wonder if the issue isnt black level, but is some other weird issue. If it was an LCD I would sure think the issue is backlight bleeding through as it looks kind of similar sometimes and also it even seemed to MAYBE have a reddish tint on the dark black screen like some LCDs do with light shining through.

Still no clue what to do because 1. I don't know what to tell anyone in order to get it to be considerd an issue a warranty would cover. and 2. I want to be sure whether it's worth having them look at it to begin with because I assume if they don't find a problem, it still reduces the value of my warranty by whatever cost they charge them for coming look at it.
post #28297 of 30271
Nobody corrected me when I said I didn't understand why people said this tv was great with a 0.01 reading in low contrast scenes on the properly working elites. Now I read back and see someone said 0.001, not 0.01. I was going to say practically all tvs reviewed go under 0.01 the past few years! Then he had said his measured at 0.003 and i was like wow 0.03 is as bad as my old LCD.

Changes a lot now. Even the 0.003 is better than the ST50 level, for example. But that just tells me even more there is some issue here, because, like I said, I've tried an ST50 before and it definitely had darker bars and full black screens than this 111. I don't necessarily care THAT much about the improvements the picture would have, as a whole, with this solved. I just want to see black bars and dark black screens! I am pretty happy with the picture as it is, in a lot of scenes. As far as black bars someone should make some sort of physical black strips for different aspect ratios which stick on the tv screen and then nobody would ever need to worry about bright bars. tongue.gif
Edited by somelogin - 4/9/13 at 4:47am
post #28298 of 30271
My 500M gives absolute pitch black bars during movies, only place where it's not inky black is during low contrast scenes, but it beats any other HDTV I've seen in the black/shadow detail combination by a mile.
post #28299 of 30271
Just my luck I get the one single one with issues. I could have sold it and bought another of them, but not only would it be a huge hassle, but I don't want someone mad if they buy it from me and indeed it does have issues. Of course I should be mad myself if it has issues when I bought it from someone, though.
post #28300 of 30271
somelogin, how exactly are you comparing the kuro with the st50 and an lcd set? are they side by side in the same room with the same lighting conditions? if you're simply going off of your recollection of how the st50 and lcd sets look, then its not a valid comparison.

Watch a bright and colorful cgi animated film. IF the bars are not inky black, then there is definitely a problem.
post #28301 of 30271
Quote:
Originally Posted by metallicaband View Post


Also, any of you guys using the Darbee darblet? Is it worth it?

I'd also like to know this - What's the scoop on the Darblet with Kuro? (Mine's 151FD, ISF calibrated.) I'm most interested in knowing if it benefits DirecTV HD source - I don't like the over-processed look ...

By the way, thanks for the help (a few pages back) re mounting, I finally got it mounted with a Peerless ST670 and it seems solid as a rock.
Edited by miami - 4/11/13 at 12:53pm
post #28302 of 30271
The darblet works between my 80.2 and the 151. I had to use reemere hdmi to stop some searching. Now seems fine. For some programs on Fios a clear improvement.

I calibrated my set a long tome ago.
post #28303 of 30271
Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

somelogin, how exactly are you comparing the kuro with the st50 and an lcd set? are they side by side in the same room with the same lighting conditions? if you're simply going off of your recollection of how the st50 and lcd sets look, then its not a valid comparison.

Watch a bright and colorful cgi animated film. IF the bars are not inky black, then there is definitely a problem.
I don't need the ST50 here to have it be a valid comparison. I never saw anything glowing to this extent with the ST50. It's bright enough to be impossible to forget. I do have a 6 year old LCD close to this. I haven't turned it on to compare, but the light output is definitely worse than a full black screen gets on the LCD. And o me, I think the black bars seem even brighter during bright scenes almost like on LCDs where light spills over. It's giving these weird eerily similar to LCD issues, which makes no sense. And I still have no clue what action to take.
post #28304 of 30271
Then get rid of it or get it fixed.
post #28305 of 30271
Nice helpful post there. As I've said countless times, I am trying to figure out the best WAY to get it fixed. Some said I should get it calibrated, which I don't think makes sense before having it checked by someone who repairs. So, as I said, I am trying to figure out the best thing to say to get it considered an issue. The people may try to not even honor it, just as when you get an LCD with flashlighting, they will just insist it's normal and not want to do anything. It's not lke the tv is broken with no picture, where they would have to do something.

I'm not really trying to find out if it does have a problem. I know it does or else people are wrong about the measurement of a full black screen as there is NO WAY this is 0.001. I see a whole screen of glowing to a shade of gray/black far FAR lighter than the bezel.
post #28306 of 30271
D-Nice what do you calibrate ISF day to vs. ISF Night? (as far as light output). Just curious if there is any standard for sets which have both day and night.

Also, i can't ever find your opinions on the ISF modes. You had mentioned in a review that you would tell your opinions on the modes some time, but I haven't found them. I am curious if you use pure or the ISF modes yourself. I would have thought ISF would still be capable of doing at least "as good as" pure.
post #28307 of 30271
You don't want help, as you don't listen when it is given.
post #28308 of 30271
what are you talking about? I've tried everything suggested other than the hilarious advice of paying hundreds of dollars to calibrate a faulty unit where I'll have to then pay hundreds all over again to calibrate it a second time. Pretty funny if that's the advice you're saying I ignored.
post #28309 of 30271
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

D-Nice what do you calibrate ISF day to vs. ISF Night? (as far as light output). Just curious if there is any standard for sets which have both day and night.

Also, i can't ever find your opinions on the ISF modes. You had mentioned in a review that you would tell your opinions on the modes some time, but I haven't found them. I am curious if you use pure or the ISF modes yourself. I would have thought ISF would still be capable of doing at least "as good as" pure.
I calibrate day and night based on the customer and room. I exclusively use ISF-Night for 98% of my viewing.
post #28310 of 30271
ok, thanks. I've used ISF Night more lately, although I have no idea which settings he ended up using. Do calibrators generally calibrate only one mode when calibrating? Whenever I do get a calibrationm it would be nice to have several modes calibrated, but I don't know if typically people pay a lot more for multiple modes. Do you not ever come this far west (Memphis) at all? I always figured you did at some point. If not, I've got to start figuring out how to find someone good, although I doubt i will want to pay to have one done for at least a few months, anwyay.
post #28311 of 30271
You've posted on this thread regarding this problem 51 times since 03/30/13. As a matter of fact, these are your only posts on AVS.

After repeated responses to your posts, it must be apparent by now that your display's problems won't be diagnosed over the internet.

You have been advised to:
  • Call for service to diagnose the problem
  • Hire a calibrator to see if he can fix it through calibration
  • Sell it and buy something else.

You have done none of the above. Yet you continue to post about the issue and clog the thread.

Are you just not getting it?
post #28312 of 30271
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

You've posted on this thread regarding this problem 51 times since 03/30/13. As a matter of fact, these are your only posts on AVS.

After repeated responses to your posts, it must be apparent by now that your display's problems won't be diagnosed over the internet.

You have been advised to:
  • Call for service to diagnose the problem
  • Hire a calibrator to see if he can fix it through calibration
  • Sell it and buy something else.

You have done none of the above. Yet you continue to post about the issue and clog the thread.

Are you just not getting it?

+1 Thank you
post #28313 of 30271
Hello everyone,

I recently bought a KRP-500m from a local seller in Los Angeles. I activated the ISF modes and am attempting to calibrate them. I bought an Eye One Pro spectrophotometer and I am using ColorHCFR software.

I got brightness, contrast and the grayscale to be pretty much perfect. Now, however, I am having trouble adjusting the color and CMS. Can any of you give me some advice on how to get the color points as close to perfect as they can be?

I have no idea how to use the CMS controls. I played around with them and I got some changes, but not really substantial improvements overall.

What kind of Delta E errors should I be shooting for? The colors that are off the most seem to be blue and magenta.

I am getting red with a delta E of 1.5, green with a delta E of 3.0 and blue with a delta E of 6.5 to 7.

As for the secondaries, I can get both yellow and cyan to have delta E's under 2 but magenta is WAY off, usually with a delta E of 9 or 10. There seems to be almost NOTHING I can do to get the delta E on magenta under 8.


I want to know how calibrators like D-Nice are able to get their color points so close? What type of results should I be able to expect on a KRP-500m?

Is it more important to have delta E errors that are roughly equal or is it more important that certain colors are accurate at the expense of others?


Can you clue me in on what results I can achieve and what the best method is to set the color points? I am sure there is some secret or quirk in these displays that I am missing to get the color closer.


Second, I am a bit confused on the gamma. I was trying for a higher gamma at night, like 2.4 instead of 2.2. I want to see how that would look. However, I don't really know how to adjust the gamma. As it is, I have a pretty flat 2.2 gamma but I wanted to change it to see if a slightly higher setting would be beneficial in a dark environment. But how do I do it?

It probably involves the "ISF gamma" controls, but I have no idea how to use them. Could you help me out here? I was under the impression that a KRP-500m could be calibrated to produce a flat gamma line pretty much anywhere from 2.2 to 2.5. I want to compare the different target gammas and see which looks best in different lighting conditions.


I would really appreciate if someone could help me here. Thanks.
post #28314 of 30271
Quote:
Originally Posted by miami View Post

I'd also like to know this - What's the scoop on the Darblet with Kuro? (Mine's 151FD, IFC calibrated.) I'm most interested in knowing if it benefits DirecTV HD source - I don't like the over-processed look ...

By the way, thanks for the help (a few pages back) re mounting, I finally got it mounted with a Peerless ST670 and it seems solid as a rock.

The Darblett will benefit any source. Oddly enough, the better the source, the more the Darblett's processing can do with it, so a well-encoded Blu-ray can look even more 3-dimensional and contrasty without over-processing.

People seem to have the best experiences with it set in Hi Def mode, at a setting of between 45-65.
post #28315 of 30271
Ignoring them (one in particular posts a lot of misinformation and rudeness constantly, anyway). I was asked to do various thigns and report back and I did, so grow up. (edit: in fact even in that post by him he gave misinformation.... go figure)

Back on topic, though, for the ones of you who are helpful: I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what I should do to get it looked into. Paying for a calibration "just to see" if it can be fixed that way is laughable, so obviously I need to get someone who repairs, but my QUESTION is what to tell them or the warranty peeps to get it checked out. You know good and well if you say "my pic doesn't look dark enough" they will never agree it's a problem.
Edited by somelogin - 4/11/13 at 12:45am
post #28316 of 30271
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

Ignoring them (one in particular posts a lot of misinformation and rudeness constantly, anyway). I was asked to do various thigns and report back and I did, so grow up. (edit: in fact even in that post by him he gave misinformation.... go figure)

Back on topic, though, for the ones of you who are helpful: I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what I should do to get it looked into. Paying for a calibration "just to see" if it can be fixed that way is laughable, so obviously I need to get someone who repairs, but my QUESTION is what to tell them or the warranty peeps to get it checked out. You know good and well if you say "my pic doesn't look dark enough" they will never agree it's a problem.

You have to get a professional's eyes on your TV. Whether you call Pioneer and set up something, or do the same with a Pioneer- approved service technician, that is your next step. (If you'd bought it from someplace with a return policy, you could do that, but life sometimes hands you lemons. I get that.)
post #28317 of 30271
Yes, I am aware, but he's acting like it's impossible that anyone here would know the tvs enough to know what it could "likely" be. i highly doubt there are more than two or three issues which would cause this problem. And like I said, I was hoping someone had advice on how to word it to where it will be taken seriously. What a reason for him to be rude... Just because he doesn't have an answer doesn't mean I should shut up and nobody else would come along who has the answers. Out of a thousand pages, I'm sure some posters in here know what I'm asking, unlike him, who you'd think would know.

By the way, sometimes motion looks funky too. I have a feeling that's normal for the tv, though. Only settings I ever use are Off and Advance. I think the tv just deosn't handle motion well. All the claims LCD bashers always made about what plasmas are better at sure have been untrue from what i've seen with this. Not as black bars, even worse motion, worse input lag for gaming, etc...
post #28318 of 30271
somelogin, please take some pictures so we can have an idea of what you're seeing.
post #28319 of 30271
55 posts....nearly two weeks.

How is that working out for you?
post #28320 of 30271
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

Yes, I am aware, but he's acting like it's impossible that anyone here would know the tvs enough to know what it could "likely" be. i highly doubt there are more than two or three issues which would cause this problem. And like I said, I was hoping someone had advice on how to word it to where it will be taken seriously. What a reason for him to be rude... Just because he doesn't have an answer doesn't mean I should shut up and nobody else would come along who has the answers. Out of a thousand pages, I'm sure some posters in here know what I'm asking, unlike him, who you'd think would know.

By the way, sometimes motion looks funky too. I have a feeling that's normal for the tv, though. Only settings I ever use are Off and Advance. I think the tv just deosn't handle motion well. All the claims LCD bashers always made about what plasmas are better at sure have been untrue from what i've seen with this. Not as black bars, even worse motion, worse input lag for gaming, etc...

With all due respect, we cannot diagnose your TV problem for free on an internet forum.

Firstly, it's not our job.

Secondly, none of us want the liability.

You simply must get a service technician out to troubleshoot it.

There is no other way.
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