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The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 947

post #28381 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

Oh but also nobody ever answered if they think anything related to the power CORD could affect anything this much or not. I would doubt it, but who knows. I recall something about the cord having tape on it or something else odd, but didn't know if that could matter or not, as far as whether it either works or doesn't or if it could work, but have worse blacks over something like that.
Not likely, but it wouldn't be hard to test for that with a replacement power cable. Surely you have a spare lying around the house (I believe it uses a standard plug).
post #28382 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

It's not a worse-rated set. In fact, there is not even a passing reference to the Kuro in his review (and Katzmaier almost always mentions it when reviewing other panels, especially when he covers black levels). Additionally, he has some pretty negative remarks about the 3D (which boggles the mind as to how a 5-star set could have such a glaring problem, because 3D is one of its selling points). You mean like in any other Panasonic or Pioneer or Sony thread? c'mon now........

are you sayng what I think your sayng? wink.giftongue.gif

I would agree with you, if it merited notiation it would ahve been notated. Price\performance wise you might have something some, but then again the Kuro was never trying to be the best bang for your buck.....Stick with it some and se eif the calibrator can help you out you might be surprised as the results as many who were skeptical before getting one done...
post #28383 of 30263
Just call me Mr. Conspiracy. redface.gif
post #28384 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Not likely, but it wouldn't be hard to test for that with a replacement power cable. Surely you have a spare lying around the house (I believe it uses a standard plug).
If you think that is it you can buy a standard IEC cable from Best Buy etc. But I doubt that will fix it, if it is broken.
post #28385 of 30263
saturn, if it's my expectations which are too high, then I am expecting a lot by thinking the full black would be even CLOSE to as good as the st30, st50, and samsung d7000 plasmas. All three of those I tried and never saw glowing to this extent. Not even close. If the way mine is performing is how it should be, then this set is far far far worse in total black than those other three. I've never seen a plasma have such a bright all black screen.
post #28386 of 30263
Calibration Report

D-Nice calibrated my made in February 2009 151-FD. Black level in ISF-Night is 0.0002 (at least I hope I read that correctly).

He listed a few Reference movies, I watched The Matrix - wow!

BTW, with nothing playing, the only way to tell the set is on, is the blue LED.
post #28387 of 30263
"BTW, with nothing playing, the only way to tell the set is on, is the blue LED."

Same here! smile.gif
post #28388 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

metallica, no. CNET did not rate this set 5 stars, so my wording was true, as well. Granted they took price into account and for pure picture quality it "seems" this model likely has better color accuracy and blacks.
The PRO-111FD was the first 5 star rated set from CNet (look it up). Since I have a ST60 and have calibrated it, it does not have better black levels compared to other 2nd gen Kuros nor is the color better.

I've never seen a defective 111FD in the blacks department but i have seen a few 60" 2nd gen Kuros that have blacks like the 1st gen so it is possible you simply purchased a defective display.
post #28389 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmmesch View Post

Calibration Report

D-Nice calibrated my made in February 2009 151-FD. Black level in ISF-Night is 0.0002 (at least I hope I read that correctly).

He listed a few Reference movies, I watched The Matrix - wow!

BTW, with nothing playing, the only way to tell the set is on, is the blue LED.
Glad to hear that you are enjoying your display. Happy pictures smile.gif
post #28390 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmmesch View Post

Calibration Report

D-Nice calibrated my made in February 2009 151-FD. Black level in ISF-Night is 0.0002 (at least I hope I read that correctly).

He listed a few Reference movies, I watched The Matrix - wow!

BTW, with nothing playing, the only way to tell the set is on, is the blue LED.

I find the 0.0002 fL very suspect. Very few light meters are that sensitive. I have one that goes to 0.000000001 fL and I find Kuro's to all measure around 0.0014 fL. The other thing I find is that displays that go too dark relative to ANSI contrast and room light levels effectively clip near black information. The darkest blacks will not define the best product for image reproduction.
post #28391 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I find the 0.0002 fL very suspect. Very few light meters are that sensitive. I have one that goes to 0.000000001 fL and I find Kuro's to all measure around 0.0014 fL. The other thing I find is that displays that go too dark relative to ANSI contrast and room light levels effectively clip near black information. The darkest blacks will not define the best product for image reproduction.

Considering the source (D-Nice) I do not at all find the numbers suspect, I am confident that if these are the numbers he is achieving then I am confident he has a meter capable of accurately measuring down to this level. In regard to your assertion that going too dark can clip near black information, have you verified this on a Pioneer that has been tweaked to this level? Again considering the source (D-Nice) I would assume if this was true he would advise his customers of the trade-off.

D-Nice has calibrated/tweaked my 600M and my MLL is now 0.0003 and I am very happy with the results.

Barry
post #28392 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I find the 0.0002 fL very suspect. Very few light meters are that sensitive. I have one that goes to 0.000000001 fL and I find Kuro's to all measure around 0.0014 fL. The other thing I find is that displays that go too dark relative to ANSI contrast and room light levels effectively clip near black information. The darkest blacks will not define the best product for image reproduction.
You are more than welcomed to be "suspect". I know the capabilities of my meter and know how to get the blacks that low without clipping anything.
post #28393 of 30263
D-Nice, no I was saying the kuro has better blacks and colors accuracy.

Do you not ever come to west TN even on a tour or for any other reason?

What i don't understand is why when watching actual content it looks like it has good black levels. ALl i know is to have this much glow on all black you would think it would have "bad" black levels to even do it, but I don't think it does have bad black levels. i don't know what to think. One thing's for sure.... it's not even CLOSE to a similar situation to where the guy only knows his is own by the blue light. If watched in total darkness, it's not even close to black, IMO. Yet for some reason i don't feel like blacks in mixed content look bad. Also, contraty to what some posters in here keep dumbly assuming, I am not disliking the set or wanting to "sell it". I am happy with everything other than black bars/total black screen and how funny that just because I want something behaving properly,they assume I am complaining and hating the set.
post #28394 of 30263
"I am happy with everything other than black bars/total black screen"

I think I can understand there being some frustration from not knowing whether there is a problem or not, but ... given that you seem happy when displaying ANY content, and presuming you do not intend to spend much of this cruelly short life watching a total black screen ... It seems you must have spent far more time posting here than watching the 1.5 Blu-Rays you've mentioned. Perhaps you could accept that showing content - beautifully - is the set's highest and best and actual intended use, and just move on?

If not, my personal advice would be to retain D-Nice (who I understand does travel much farther than your location in Memphis). After his ministrations, you will either be both reassured and happily calibrated or, if there is a genuine problem with your set, he will likely be able to delineate the issue such that you can then contact your warranty carrier with hard data. I know you are concerned about spending the $ on calibrating a possible-problem set, but no better solution has arisen, and it's time to acknowledge that if anyone here were able to usefully narrow the possible issues, they would surely have spoken up by now somewhere in the many pages spent on this issue.

Finally, I will concur with some earlier posts that basing your judgments on anything other than live and side by side comparisons are dubious. It is simply beyond human capabilities to make fine scalar comparisons from memory. (This is why all professional reviewers, who feed their families and pay their mortgages by making comparisons, maintain reference equipment.)
post #28395 of 30263
I do know when something wows me, however, and that is why I know the picture was different on the ST50. I said I am happy with the picture, not that it's as good as the kuros are suppsoed to be. Compared wth other tvs I like it better than any leds and it's more natural of a picture than the other plasmas. But something sems a bit off even on mixed content and since most blu rays will have black bars, I will still be a bit annoyed even when watching movies.

As for d-nice, i would probably go that route if he does end up near here and if he has a way to know right off if it's truly a problem wehre he could skip doing it and charge less if it's truly defective. It would just not be wise to pay for a calibration and then find out even that can't get it right.

One thing I am still confused on is why lowering brightness from 0 to -30 did NOTHING to the level. Look no further than d-nice's last post to remind yourself that usually sets can get darker than calibrated blacks, if you were to try to get it so without ANY concern with clipping or anything else other than black level. Yet on mine the brightness of the screen on full black looks unchanged when going from 0 to -30 in brightness. I don't know what that tells us, but it should mean soemthing. i would think if the glow is due to bad black levels that lowering brightness would make less glow down to whatever brightness is finally at the point where nothing lower does anything. But I highly doubt zero is supposed to be that number. Also who is anyone in here to tell me what I can't talk about with this tv? I am curious about this, as others probably are too, and whether it gets fixed or not and what my next course of action is is IRRELEVANT to whether or not I can talk about it in here. Maybe I don't like reading some of the other posters' posts, as they are about something i don't care about either. I guarantee I can pick a topic and look through yhis thread and see far more posts on itt han i've posted.

Also... want to bet I need side by side to know I have NEVER EVER EVER had a tv as bright on full black as this? I've tried nearly all Sonys, all the top plasmas, even low end CRTs, etc... Whatever the mind is capable of, mine is sure capable of knowing this is brighter than any other I've tried ever.

What will likely happen, though, is someone will say it's behaving normally because nobody is going to be checking it in pitch black with no light outside or inside and in other lighting the full black is not as easily noticed to be problematic and measurements with equipment can always be misleading, as mentioned by CNET when their measurements showed a ton of color error on 2012 pannys yet said they couldn't see the problems in content.
Edited by somelogin - 4/16/13 at 3:47pm
post #28396 of 30263
So what are you actually looking for as far as a response?

NOONE here can diagnose what is happening with your display without actually standing in front of it. If someone could, they would have, and really, what kind of faith would you put in their guess, since it would just be a guess.

The most qualified person to check to see if your kuro is working as it should is D-Nice, as he has probably calibrated more Kuros than any of us combined.

Your posting the same thing in every post is like beating a dead horse.

Many have given you sound advice, and have asked you to not continue posting the same thing over and over again, as it has become tiresome. By continuing, you are alienating the very people who were willing to help you, which isn't very productive.
post #28397 of 30263
No one can "diagnose" whether or not people like this tv either, but they still posted in it when the set came out talking about liking it. Since whether or not they like it has no response which matters, I guess you're aying nobody should post opinions.

Again, I asked what could make the screen not dim below 0 when almost all tvs can get dimmer than the calibrated setting, if you ignore all other variables. And also how can black look good sometimes, yet not on full black? I am still not convinced black level alone is the only thing which affects the glow.
post #28398 of 30263
I'm getting close to unsubscribing from this thread, this poor dead horse won't rest in peace.
post #28399 of 30263
Quick fix: Sell it. Defective or not, it will sell.
Long term fix: Hold on and wait until D-Nice is in your area.

One thing to keep in mind, you have a 111fd. While no slouch, it is inferior to the krp's and the elite signature series (101fd and 141fd). Therefore, you should not expect your set to mimic what owners of those particual sets are reporting, especially if your set has NEVER been professionally calibrated.
post #28400 of 30263
D-Nice also suggested Prometheus for black and contrast, I watched it tonight, and WOW!
post #28401 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

No one can "diagnose" whether or not people like this tv either, but they still posted in it when the set came out talking about liking it. Since whether or not they like it has no response which matters, I guess you're aying nobody should post opinions.

Again, I asked what could make the screen not dim below 0 when almost all tvs can get dimmer than the calibrated setting, if you ignore all other variables. And also how can black look good sometimes, yet not on full black? I am still not convinced black level alone is the only thing which affects the glow.

In order for others to assist you, you need to test it in a manner that is consistent and can be objectively evaluated, so that others can attempt to replicate the same problem.

Please do the following:
1) Turn off the lights and black out the room as much as possible.
2) Put in a blu-ray disc, or anything of high quality, with a 2.40:1 aspect ratio.
3) Jump to various scenes of different brightness. Can you make out the black bars easily? Does the picture appear to float in black space?
4) Report your findings. Be as detailed as possible.

I'll give you an example. I have a Panasonic 65" VT50. My viewing room is approximately 350 sq ft. Using the disc "How To Train Your Dragon", I can observe that at the 30 second mark, where the Dreamworks logo shows up, the following:
1) The black bars are barely visible. I basically have to stare at them for a few seconds and let my eyes adjust to darkness to see that it's not black.
2) It's about as dark, or slightly darker than the wall behind the TV. My wall is not white; it's slightly darker than a white wall. In other words, the total amount of light from TV in my 350 sq ft room lights the room to the point where the walls are brighter than the black bars.

Now if I go to very start of Chapter 2, I can see the black bars more easily, since this scene is darker. Now the black bars are slightly brighter than the wall behind the TV, which is now darker than before.

Considering a 9G Kuro should have a black level, at most, half of the VT50's, your black bars should be not brighter than the wall behind the TV, or the rest of the room, except for in a very dark scenes.
Edited by superbooga - 4/16/13 at 10:49pm
post #28402 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

Quick fix: Sell it. Defective or not, it will sell.
Long term fix: Hold on and wait until D-Nice is in your area.

One thing to keep in mind, you have a 111fd. While no slouch, it is inferior to the krp's and the elite signature series (101fd and 141fd). Therefore, you should not expect your set to mimic what owners of those particual sets are reporting, especially if your set has NEVER been professionally calibrated.
A couple of clarifications/corrections: He hasn't seen a functional KRP as far as I can tell and only has inferior Plasma sets with which to compare it (so it would be quite difficult for him to have any expectations, other than the glowing reviews in forums and on the web in general). The 141FD is not noticeably superior to the 111FD in PQ (other than size), and it is only the KRP-500M and 101FD (50" panels, otherwise known as 9.5G) that have the deeper blacks. To keep things in perspective, the new panels from Panasonic and Samsung have thus far been measuring higher than what the 111FD is capable of. Full-array LEDs are a different story of course (with all of their associated caveats and artifacts).
post #28403 of 30263
Where does the 5020FD rank in the lineup of 9g and 9.5g Euros?
post #28404 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watcher12 View Post

Where does the 5020FD rank in the lineup of 9g and 9.5g Euros?

Just regular 9G since it was the first released I guess? I think only the ones vinnie97 mentioned beat it, AFAIK the launch elites didn't have deeper blacks compared to non-elites.
post #28405 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

Quick fix: Sell it. Defective or not, it will sell.
Long term fix: Hold on and wait until D-Nice is in your area.

One thing to keep in mind, you have a 111fd. While no slouch, it is inferior to the krp's and the elite signature series (101fd and 141fd). Therefore, you should not expect your set to mimic what owners of those particual sets are reporting, especially if your set has NEVER been professionally calibrated.

Only the 500m and 101FD have deeper blacks than the regular 9G's. The 141 is the same except for extra picture controls.

I'm pretty sure i think something is wrong with his kuro now. Comparing kuro blacks to LCD's is crazy. He even said other plasmas looked darker. He shouldn't be experiencing any extreme grayness. I'm guessing his panel has higher blacks from long term use, or like D-Nice said his panel is defective. You have to wonder about either of those two when people report their disappointed in the blacks. I guess i have one of those variance panels where it's darker than another cause i can tell you right now light and gray doesn't come to mind when i watching low contrast scenes in my 151.

I wish i could see his TV in person.
post #28406 of 30263
Until he has a calibrator to look at it like D-Nice, no way he will know what is really wrong with it or not.
That is the price to pay for buying a tv sight unseen on E-Bay.
post #28407 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmmesch View Post

Calibration Report

D-Nice calibrated my made in February 2009 151-FD. Black level in ISF-Night is 0.0002 (at least I hope I read that correctly).

Does any one know what MLL 500M and 101's are getting compared to the 151 above?
post #28408 of 30263
1. The 101 is only "slightly" better in low contrast scenes and different in no other ways, picture-quality wise to trhe 111, according tow aht D-nice ahs posted before. very misleading to act like the 101 is on some level above.

2. As I said, the ST60 is the first ever 5 star review. I looked to confirm and idneed the kuro got 4 and 1/2.

3. I already said I am not selling the set. Only way I would is if I could get the SAME amount of money it would cost to buy another of the same model from ebay and its shipping cost.

4. Almost every post has a different question, most of which go unanswered, so lol @ dead horse. So i guess that subscriber does like getting notified of these other posts which 1 in 100,000 would care about, which are not mine. I havent seen a post that an owner would really "care" about in ages so if he thinks me not posting is going to improve his subscribing results.... he is wrong.

5. As I said, I have already looked at the bars with various kinds of content on it. To me it "seems" like maybe brightness from the picture is somehow creeping into them. I don't see part of the picture. I thought maybe it was related to my glasses, but qwith them off I think it's still easier to notice the black bars than it should be.

6. skip, ANYWHERE you get this set, whether seen or unseen, it's a used set. Also had I gone and seen it in person I likely wouldn't have noticed this anyway because for the full black screen it's easy to not notice if there is ANY ambient light whatsoever.

7. Paying for a calibration just to "see" if it would fix it is pretty ridiculous. For the price of a calibration you could pay for a visit AND new part for a tv. And D-nice can't come here, so it's not an option anyway.

I just think people with knowledge about these units will know what "type" of problem would have excessive glow and it not even get better by loweing brightness to -30. I am kind of hoping it's a power supply issue since Pioneer still has those. And the cost is more than my warranty cost, so would make the warranty end up being a good deal. the problem is ever getting someone to consider it a problem unit when they see it has a good picture still.
post #28409 of 30263
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

...I'm pretty sure i think something is wrong with his kuro now. Comparing kuro blacks to LCD's is crazy. He even said other plasmas looked darker. He shouldn't be experiencing any extreme grayness. I'm guessing his panel has higher blacks from long term use, or like D-Nice said his panel is defective. You have to wonder about either of those two when people report their disappointed in the blacks. I guess i have one of those variance panels where it's darker than another cause i can tell you right now light and gray doesn't come to mind when i watching low contrast scenes in my 151....

And this is where somelogin is stuck. We already know somelogin believes the black level to be too high. Could just be in need of a calibration, could be defective. Until a professional that knows these panels looks at it, we'll never know. Repeating this over and over and over isn't going to change anything. If a forum member out there had the answer, it would have been posted by now (there have been great suggestions posted).

Time for a new topic in this thread........

Anyone here have D-Nice's black level tweak applied to their 9g Kuro (I have a 151)? How much difference did it make to your eye?

Thanks. smile.gif
post #28410 of 30263
Either get the set fixed or calibrated, it's your call. Stop whining here, it is doing no good!
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