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The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 973

post #29161 of 30259
As a former (frown.gif) owner of a 101FD, I have no problem endorsing the out-of-the-box picture quality of the VT60 and ZT60's THX modes. Are they equal/superior to stock/calibrated settings of a 9G Kuro? No, but they still look fantastic in my opinion.

More surprisingly, in my latest testing trip to my local AV retailer I actually liked the stock Cinema mode on the S60. After setting the panel brightness to 'Mid,' I actually found myself preferring it to the ZT/VT. Everything about it looked extremely natural. On the other hand, for all the praise that it receives I just can't seem to make the ST60 look palatable to my eyes. Even after plugging in CNET/D-Nice settings, everything just looks too overblown and a bit soft -- I described it aloud as looking "radioactive." I've viewed it several times at several different stores now and it just can't seem to win me over.
post #29162 of 30259
As a former owner of a 111FD (a step down from you), I am quite pleased with the ZT60's out-of-the-box settings. Once I can manage a calibration, I am sure that pleasure will increase.
post #29163 of 30259
Hyperbole vinnie.

Don't think so.

The out of the box settings of the VT AND ZT - are crap - simple as that. If you think for a second they are in the class of Movie (and) Pure mode...

You sir, are simply deluding yourself.
post #29164 of 30259
I have a strong hunch every ZT owner would vehemently disagree and be similarly self-deluded in feeling that that the default settings are not crap. There is always room for improvement, especially with panel variability and the inevitable variance in the first 300 hours, but I'm afraid you're exaggerating again.

EDIT: You know, I probably misread the original post and completely overlooked the OOTB acro. It's a bit silly to make a definitive memory-based comparison of OOTB settings between sets, something I never should have engaged in the first place. Carry on.
Edited by vinnie97 - 8/16/13 at 2:59am
post #29165 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Hyperbole vinnie.

Don't think so.

The out of the box settings of the VT AND ZT - are crap - simple as that. If you think for a second they are in the class of Movie (and) Pure mode...

You sir, are simply deluding yourself.

They certainly aren't as good as the Pure/Movie of a 9G Kuro, (and that isn't to mention the ISF profiles -- stunning!) but to call the THX profiles of the ZT/VT60 "crap?" I must disagree. Without any tweaking, to my eyes they' provide the absolute best out-of-the-box viewing experience currently available. Of course, if one has the funds to support the purchase of one of these premium televisions then they probably have the means to pay a professional calibrator, but it's been my subjective experience regardless. Also, I have to give Panasonic credit for providing both a standard THX and a brighter THX for daytime viewing without making the latter look overhyped/blown out. I'm sure there are probably measurements floating around that I could refer to, but I viewed the latter mode as simply being brighter than the former without adding any of the anomalies that I expected.

*Disclaimer: I do not own a Panasonic plasma and currently own my second Pioneer.
post #29166 of 30259
Simply comparing the ootb modes - and simply telling it like it is in comparison.

Isn't the Panasonic threads more suitable for self convincing rather than comparing to the Pioneer Kuro's Pure and Movie modes ootb.

Like arguing black is white imho.

Pure and Movie modes imo are unbeatable ootb. That and they are basically 40 FTL helps for daytime viewing with contrast at default.

Pure or Movie with a move from 'LOW' to 'Mid Low' without any other tweaks for "ootb". Doesn't get any better imo.
Edited by Stu03 - 8/16/13 at 3:31am
post #29167 of 30259
Why would someone with a zt keep coming back to the pio threads!!! I can't work that one out lmao.😊
post #29168 of 30259
In the flat panel world, it marks the longest span of ownership I've ever experienced with a flat panel TV (4+ years, and prior to HD, I was not much of a videophile enthusiast), so it's tempting to come back and see the goings on with the associated product line (temptation resistance is not my forte frown.gif). Like I said, it was a mistake to respond to an opinion about default picture settings, but I missed the OOTB acronym until it was too late.
post #29169 of 30259
I find it pretty sad tbh

You only have to look at "some" websites and magazines who do reviews... And that dreaded Panasonic logo is plastered all over some sites (including review sites) Why - because they are sponsored by them that's why.

Period.

Then as usual all the truth comes spilling out a few months down the road.

Why it's a good idea to listen to independent opinions in most cases and not "inspired" reviews that most people who know even the basic principles of plasma displays - understand it - and deep down know it to to be complete and utter twaddle.

I have been reading since 2009 then 2010, then 2011, then 2012 and again this year. It always reads the same old crap... This year the ghost of Kuro has finally been laid to rest... Yeah right.

Because if it was true (even for a second) then it wouldn't be brought up year after year - review after review rolleyes.gif

Go and do one lol tongue.gif
Edited by Stu03 - 8/16/13 at 8:22am
post #29170 of 30259
If you mean Cnet, 2013 is the first year that Katzmaier has considered the competition up to par with his previous reference standard (the 111FD). I agree with him and so do others who have made the upgrade. I'm not sure which truths you think were delayed from being revealed (total light output, known from almost the beginning...black levels were marketed to be "ultimate", but it didn't take long to get measurements to attain the actual levels). The conspiracy theories about payoffs are fun but petty. Or is it you think your brethren at HDTVTest were paid off? He brings to bear the brightness limitations and his impressions about equitable black level performance. Sure, there's a link at the bottom to a Panasonic store for those whose appetites are whetted by the review (but it's merely a raw link, with no referrer's ID embedded). I'm just trying to understand this vast conspiracy meant to belittle the mighty Kuro. I am fully aware of all the speculation surrounding the king being toppled from 2009 through 2012. It was merely speculation. Finally, in 2013, minus a lower light output (only applicable to daytime viewing, which is at the bottom of my viewing list) and an approximately equivalent black level, everything is an (albeit minor) upgrade.
Edited by vinnie97 - 8/16/13 at 2:54pm
post #29171 of 30259
I am just amazed someone spends so much time trying to validate that he still owns the best display ever made. 2013 was the year they made some great new plasmas, hopefully there will be some more improvements next year before they begin to disappear from the market. There is nothing wrong with having multiple options/good choices last time I checked. Sorry if that means that someone doesn't get to be at the top of the jungle gym any more.

Craigboy, I see nothing wrong with a member who has owned a display for a number of years until a few months ago continuing to post and follow this thread. Much different then someone who never had the tech in their home. They can also offer a valid comparison between the two, vs. those just quoting numbers or what they saw at Best Buy. I think most AVS members read the reviews and posts, but ultimately buy what looks the best to them.

Having had DNice calibrate my Pioneer 4 years ago and my VT last weekend the Kuro has company. Disclaimer, extra light output is not required in my viewing environment. Light output of both of them was set to the same amount for that reason.
post #29172 of 30259
Murray if you read it as it should be you would see the comment was a light hearted one, and don't get so worked up, more important things in life than a poxy TV
post #29173 of 30259
And the debate continues.

Sigh.

*Shakes head and walks off*
post #29174 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

If you mean Cnet, 2013 is the first year that Katzmaier has considered the competition up to par with his previous reference standard (the 111FD). I agree with him and so do others who have made the upgrade. I'm not sure which truths you think were delayed from being revealed (total light output, known from almost the beginning...black levels were marketed to be "ultimate", but it didn't take long to get measurements to attain the actual levels). The conspiracy theories about payoffs are fun but petty. Or is it you think your brethren at HDTVTest were paid off? He brings to bear the brightness limitations and his impressions about equitable black level performance. Sure, there's a link at the bottom to a Panasonic store for those whose appetites are whetted by the review (but it's merely a raw link, with no referrer's ID embedded). I'm just trying to understand this vast conspiracy meant to belittle the mighty Kuro. I am fully aware of all the speculation surrounding the king being toppled from 2009 through 2012. It was merely speculation. Finally, in 2013, minus a lower light output (only applicable to daytime viewing, which is at the bottom of my viewing list) and an approximately equivalent black level, everything is an (albeit minor) upgrade.

Whatever vinnie - your paranoia about your Panasonic on a Pioneer thread knows no bounds.eek.gif

With regards to 'some' ridiculous magazine and a few hyperbolic online reviews and 'some' experts opinions over the years since approximately 2010 (and some now)... Well the expression that springs to mind for 'some' readers imho is... "Can't see the wood for the trees"

But tell me... What apart from a few inches and inbuilt 3D and perhaps a fractionally better filter have you upgraded to ?...

Banding, noisy fans, less accurate color/greyscale, less accurate AV presets, black level, light output only suitable for dark rooms, video like film motion, much more input lag, lesser panel quality, lesser build quality, lesser component quality ??? - i could think of more but my fingers are becoming tired lol.

I think you know all this hence the need to hammer your Panasonic "upgrade" on the Pioneer threads.

:EDIT:

Don't get me wrong, i am not saying they are bad displays by any manner of means... But an upgrade except for size or age - most certainly not.
Edited by Stu03 - 8/17/13 at 3:43am
post #29175 of 30259
"Whatever" describes your post pretty well actually. I wish we could all be like you and have the last great panel ever manufactured. wink.gif

What banding? There's DSE but that was present on the ole' 111FD and is part and parcel to the manufacturing process (filter application), the treasured 500Ms aside. Less accurate color and grayscale? I'll have to get back to you after looking at some calibration charts, but the minuscule differences that you're assuredly attempting to elevate to grand proportions aren't detectable without a reference panel beside it (and color accuracy is not a limitation on these panels with the robust calibration controls). Video-like film motion? Say what? That is optional, and it's called frame interpolation! The Kuro has that same "feature!" Input lag, you say....the Kuro was nothing special here at around 50 ms, just middle of the road, just like the Panasonic (~46 ms). Your remark about lesser build quality is without merit, as is the lesser component quality (as this is something "under the hood" and not even quantifiable by any stretch but based on your own hunches, and even more meaningless when accounting for the recent historical failure rate of 3%). Light output is NOT only suitable for dark rooms, but the narrative you've imagined is one laughable fiction. Adding 3D actually means the Panasonics have a higher refresh rate along with the associated benefits in 2D PQ this can impart, and the 69% increase in size makes for a MUCH more enveloping picture than the potential negative effects one might experience from your laundry list of (mostly) unsubstantiated complaints.

No, the only time I hammer anything is in frustration and directly after you remind us about how nothing can surpass a 5-year-old TV as if we're living in a vacuum, as if Panasonic has been standing still since the time of Pioneer's display business exit, and as if the engineers they acquired have simply been sitting on their tushes instead of imparting their knowledge and expertise for their new employer. I should leave well enough alone, but temptation gets the better of me.
Edited by vinnie97 - 8/17/13 at 4:53am
post #29176 of 30259
This is getting kinda ridiculous:

Fact: There's no TV that outright beats a calibrated Kuro today in terms of PQ, there are some that are arguably as good or better in certain stuff like the Panasonic plasmas or Sharp Elite. This is indeed SAD because for a tech so old (regardless of how expensive it was) we expect something that outright beats it today without even debating about it.

Now please drop the comparisons because it's getting really old and I wish we keep this thread about the Kuros.
post #29177 of 30259
Sure, we can wish for that, but then we can recall 2008 and note how the fallout of that economic calamity continues to this day. The OLEDs just released actually have us all in the obsolescence camp, if only just. smile.gif

Also, the Kuro needs no defense, but let's not exaggerate its performance in 2013 while belittling the competition with a laundry list of exaggerated complaints (not that there aren't any whatsoever, as there is always room for improvement).
Edited by vinnie97 - 8/17/13 at 5:26am
post #29178 of 30259
Well denial or not vinnie,

The Kuro's panel/module will never be bettered (not in a plasma sense)

Not unless Panasonic do a massive u-turn and decide to start the R&D again... In their words "they have built their last panel".

Identical components, gimmicks and hype from here on in then.

U-HD 0MLL OLED (flat version) remains the (only) "realistic" upgrade in a few years for me.
post #29179 of 30259
I will chime in a bit. I have had just about every model kuro except for the elite 151/141. My primary display up until recently was a calibrated 6020 that developed the red tint issue. I also just had a Sharp elite for a few weeks (2 actually) and I can say that the image was better than my 6020. Yes the viewing angles are worse but the inky blacks were noticeably better on the Sharp Elite. Now let me state that my set had the red tint issue and probably needed to be recalibrated again. I still don't think it would have beat the Sharp though but would have come close. My old 500m/600m were the best Kuro's I have ever owned . I believe those were truly a bit better than the Sharp Elite or the VT/ZT plasmas. I wouldn't say leaps and bounds though, just barely.

Now if you are comparing the VT series to the Kuro, Panasonic has finally broke even in my opinion. I think there are things that the Kuro still does better (smoother image in my opinion, better IR prevention, contrast) but there are also things that the VT series improves on also. I am biased a bit as a former Kuro owner. I can say though that a calibrated Kuro will still beat anything out there right now but just barely. Again this is all my opinion. I actually am quite impressed with the Samsung 8500 more this year with the improvements they have made. I just wish the input lag wasn't so high.


I honestly have regrets now selling my Kuro even with the red tint. I got quite a bit for it but now I am struggling to find it's replacement. I even looked at used 151's but I am not sure I want to go this route. I will probably flip a coin between the VT/8500 and then look towards OLED in 3-4 years. I wish the Sharp Elite would have worked out but their QC was bad on one set I had and another open box had a lot of issues. That was the first LCD I have ever seen that I was truly impressed with.
post #29180 of 30259
The true fact is the Kuro has not been beaten and nothing is close, I would agree that the ZT is over half way there on performance, however if you just look at the performance measurements, figures and facts of each display, then the others are really miles away!

All the reviews read like they have a Panasonic influence as they are so biased as such, how can they say "it's been beaten", when it's measured results, show a far less performance figure than a Kuro, it's just outright lying in my book, to get the not so experienced to upgrade or purchase their product and cause disillusion, which we are seeing all over the world rolleyes.gif

Until a display that can actually measure a better black reading without fluctuation and a higher than 50fl peak without compromise, then I would buy that display as it would truly be better than what I have now.

The Krp-600m I have is the most filmic and true to life display I have ever seen with perfect skin tones, after my recent self calibration using todays offered measuring media and creating a 48fl calibration, I am even more astounded by the picture quality produced utilising this huge contrast ratio that the Kuro can achieve and the majority of standard definition source is very close to HD quality, it just continues to impress me daily, nothing like this is available from Panasonic, period!
post #29181 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

The true fact is the Kuro has not been beaten and nothing is close, I would agree that the ZT is over half way there on performance, however if you just look at the performance measurements, figures and facts of each display, then the others are really miles away!

All the reviews read like they have a Panasonic influence as they are so biased as such, how can they say "it's been beaten", when it's measured results, show a far less performance figure than a Kuro, it's just outright lying in my book, to get the not so experienced to upgrade or purchase their product and cause disillusion, which we are seeing all over the world rolleyes.gif

Until a display that can actually measure a better black reading without fluctuation and a higher than 50fl peak without compromise, then I would buy that display as it would truly be better than what I have now.

The Krp-600m I have is the most filmic and true to life display I have ever seen with perfect skin tones, after my recent self calibration using todays offered measuring media and creating a 48fl calibration, I am even more astounded by the picture quality produced utilising this huge contrast ratio that the Kuro can achieve and the majority of standard definition source is very close to HD quality, it just continues to impress me daily, nothing like this is available from Panasonic, period!
out of interest hit man what do you have your contrast set at in day mode?
post #29182 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigyboy View Post

out of interest hit man what do you have your contrast set at in day mode?

Hi Craigy,

it's set to 38 and I could go higher on fl as per my cal report I posted on here a while ago but the current fl just looked perfect for my environment and everything seemed to fall into place at this level giving a great gamma curve, so left it there.

Using a 40 setting i think gets to be at the ~ limit before high end gamma problems start and is backed up by users reports during calibrations, I have experienced this myself during test cals but can't remember if it started specifically at 40 or above setting.
post #29183 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

Hi Craigy,

it's set to 38 and I could go higher on fl as per my cal report I posted on here a while ago but the current fl just looked perfect for my environment and everything seemed to fall into place at this level giving a great gamma curve, so left it there.

Using a 40 setting i think gets to be at the ~ limit before high end gamma problems start and is backed up by users reports during calibrations, I have experienced this myself during test cals but can't remember if it started specifically at 40 or above setting.
thanks, yes just had mine calibrated at 40 day 35 night
post #29184 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigyboy View Post

thanks, yes just had mine calibrated at 40 day 35 night

Do you know what fl you ended up with at that setting?
post #29185 of 30259
My problems start at Contrast=41, which seems to give the absolute peak ftL output before it starts decreasing again. So yeah, 40 sounds like a good max, and I also had some high end gamma problems with 40, yet 38 is easy-going with nicer cal results. Nice to have so many configurable inputs to play with, so I can go back and forth and not rely on my so-called memory... [151 BTW]
post #29186 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

My problems start at Contrast=41, which seems to give the absolute peak ftL output before it starts decreasing again. So yeah, 40 sounds like a good max, and I also had some high end gamma problems with 40, yet 38 is easy-going with nicer cal results. Nice to have so many configurable inputs to play with, so I can go back and forth and not rely on my so-called memory... [151 BTW]

I used a single channel RGB gamma graph, not a combined gamma line (default) and this showed the rgb gamma split off in different directions when going over the limit and gave a severe drop off.

Having 3 separate ISF memories per input was really helpful in dialing in various calibration levels that could be compared to cherry pick the best results.
post #29187 of 30259
Hi everyone don't post often,

Although my display isn't professionally calibrated, it is still amazing (I use D-Nice's settings from years back) - one of the most important investments, now that I think of it, of at least the last 10 years of my life.

The picture, sometimes, is so good I almost feel guilty - Proud 111FD owner going on 5 years and what seemingly is a testament to the following of the Kuro line this thread has over 2.6M views...and is still the benchmark so many years later.
post #29188 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by keefy6 View Post

Hi everyone don't post often,

Although my display isn't professionally calibrated, it is still amazing (I use D-Nice's settings from years back) - one of the most important investments, now that I think of it, of at least the last 10 years of my life.

The picture, sometimes, is so good I almost feel guilty - Proud 111FD owner going on 5 years and what seemingly is a testament to the following of the Kuro line this thread has over 2.6M views...and is still the benchmark so many years later.

Blimey, then you've missed out on it's true potential, posted results are nowhere near what your own display can benefit from a personal calibration as all displays and viewing environments are different!

Get it calibrated!
post #29189 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

Do you know what fl you ended up with at that setting?
not to sure on that one:)
post #29190 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

The true fact is the Kuro has not been beaten and nothing is close, I would agree that the ZT is over half way there on performance, however if you just look at the performance measurements, figures and facts of each display, then the others are really miles away!

All the reviews read like they have a Panasonic influence as they are so biased as such, how can they say "it's been beaten", when it's measured results, show a far less performance figure than a Kuro, it's just outright lying in my book, to get the not so experienced to upgrade or purchase their product and cause disillusion, which we are seeing all over the world rolleyes.gif

Until a display that can actually measure a better black reading without fluctuation and a higher than 50fl peak without compromise, then I would buy that display as it would truly be better than what I have now.

The Krp-600m I have is the most filmic and true to life display I have ever seen with perfect skin tones, after my recent self calibration using todays offered measuring media and creating a 48fl calibration, I am even more astounded by the picture quality produced utilising this huge contrast ratio that the Kuro can achieve and the majority of standard definition source is very close to HD quality, it just continues to impress me daily, nothing like this is available from Panasonic, period!
It's much closer than halfway and 90% of my viewing with the Kuro was in a darkened environment, not too different from the new panel. In that setting, there isn't really a longing for the panel it replaced. I can say the same for moderate lighting (probably not for brighter). I don't think it's any secret that an OLED will be the only tech at this juncture to beat the maximum attainable black level on any Kuro (and simultaneously go brighter). Any Pioneer panel aside from the 101FD/500M, however, is approximately on par with what Panasonic has unleashed in the low-end.

YOTR, I think that was a fair comparison and less biased than most. I don't/didn't envy your position, since you already had a 60" panel...I saw in another thread that you "settled" on the VT.
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