The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 16

Could it be that the daylight is what's making the picture appear soft? What picture mode are you using?

*WARNING* Newbies looking for advice on this forum take notice. You have a lot of people that don't know what they are talking about like the poster above. The 8G Kuro (When properly Calibrated to D65) has a minimum luminance level of 0.004 ftL which is the best except for the 9G Kuro which when properly calibrated would give you 0.001 ftL. The poster above is wrong in stating that if there is black crush it has to do with the source. Also you purchased a Kuro because its the best set available for accurate dark room viewing. That does not mean you lower the brightness at the expense of crushing dark detail. You can set brightness by using a Sony Blu-Ray and entering 7669 on the top menu. This will give you test patterns, the first one you can use to set brightness, you simply can start off with a really low brightness setting like -15, the picture should be really dark and you should only see black boxes on the bottom. Simply raise the brightness level until you can see a little grey bar appear in the lower right corner box. That will let you know you have the darkest blacks your set can produce without crushing dark detail. I own the Pioneer 5010 and my brightness setting is at +1. If I set it one click lower to "0" than the blacks look blacker and colors look deeper but I am missing dark detail. For example look at Anne Hathaway's black outfit in The Devil Wears Prada on Blu-Ray.... at +1 I can see the fold pattern in the top part of the black dress and also differentiate between the shawl and the dress. At "0" all I can make out is a black one piece dress, which is not what she is wearing. This forum can be great but you really need to be selective about the information you get.

exactally what a stupid thing to say

its noy like they used a kill-a-wat to determine power usage did they?



I have had people at the Magnolia BB tell me things that were flat out FALSE! - like I asked about color accuracy and black levels, they told me that anything out here (in the store) is going to be better than a CRT bay far

what a dumb ass, I can only guess how many people they have told this to in the past who believed them

not to mention the Monster cable crap they try to pull (I will say that a couple of BB employees told me it is over priced and I could get it better from monoprice, I did)

hmmm....I hope not, but it's worth testing that hypothesis further as it gets darker tonight and those "5x better" blacks just keep getting deeper and deeper. I"ll dvr some of the prgrams that look soft and watch them later tonight for comparison.

The mode I'm using right now is standard. Most of main picture settings are at mid point..except the sharpness (+7) and color (+5). I keep flipping between the settings, but standard or a slightly-tweaked pure seems to be best balance so far. Orbiter set to mode 2 (i've tried "off" just to see if that helps, but it doesn't). Colorspace is 1.

I watched a few shows on discovery HD and science channel HD that looked really soft, but the sox/'cards game on Fox and the olympics trials on NBC looked pretty crisp. I even found myself watching the terrible "Meet the Robinsons" or whatever it's called on Starz for a few minutes just because I was in awe at the colors. So, I'm starting to think it may just be a broadcast/directv thing. Either that or my brain is getting used to the softer image.

Well apparently my 151, which wasn't even supposed to be in the warehouse (which is in another state from the state which I live in) until after the 27th, arrived in the store today and they actually delivered it about 3 hours later. Kind of a crazy surprise, although it's currently breaking in on the dang floor since I wasn't finished setting up the room and running the wires for the wall mount.

Anyway, the delivery guys were great, even though it had to be unboxed in the yard to make it through the insane pathway to my basement through the house. TV seems to be pixel-perfect (big sigh of relief), but does seem to be a little buzzy. Since my basement is nearly never silent anyway (water running, A/C, beer fridge, etc.) I doubt it's going to be a big issue as even with most of those things off, I can only hear it out about 3 feet on an all-white screen.

I'm not entirely sure what the blotch effect is that people describe, but I don't think the set has it. I'll know better after I have the opportunity to see some content other than the varying colors of the break-in DVD.

Here's some pics, please excuse the disaster basement, everything's just piled up while we work on cable runs and wall mounts (speakers and the panel).

This is a long shot, but are you by chance using the TV's speakers? I happened to run across some info in the manual that indicates the speakers aren't shielded too well. The manual says something about not putting a CRT monitor too close to the speakers as it could cause problems with PQ. As I said...just a long shot.

Plasma flat panels are not effected by speakers that aren't shielded. It's the electron beam in the CRT sets that have a problem with unshielded speakers.

thebarnman,

the "blotch" issue is a different issue then the dirty screen or noise issue.

the blotch problem was seen with a blank input where sections = "blotches" of the screen were actually noticeably darker then other areas of the screen.
pioneer did replace some members panels that had this defect although it did take a little effort when it was initially noticed/reported for warranty issues but Poneer finally recognized it as an actual panel defect.

the dirty screen issue probably is the same as some members reported having a noisey screen especially when the panel was viewed just after purchase. several members mentioned this but usually they did report it was much better or gone completey after the panel had been broken in say 200+ hours or so. see you already have noticed a lesser effect as yours get broken in that's a good sign.

note: yes be very careful if you attempt to clean the screen, the bonded filter is on the outside of the glass.

My Velodyne FSR-15 will be about 4-8 inches away from my 151 which will be on an adjacent stand. Is that too close or should I not worry? I was told that the TV should be at least 3 inches away from the speaker. Due to space limitations, the subwoofer cannot be moved. TIA for any suggestions.

Not according to Pioneer. From page 19 of the PRO151FD owners manual:

Placing a CRT monitor near the speaker can cause a blur on the flat panel TV. Keep the distance between the
speaker and the monitor.

WTF are you talking about? A lot of time, the supposed black crush *IS* due
the source, depending on the material. Yeah, an uncalibrated TV can crush blacks
and such, but there are many times when folks mistake the director's choice of
filming for a flaw in the TV. Folks often turn up the brightness to see detail
in a film that was not intended to be seen. I had this explicitly explained over
and over again by a highly respected ISF calibrator last year and he even
went on to show me examples after he properly calibrated my Pro-150FD.
Turning brightness to +3 and up will just diminish your blacks and wash the
colours out. When I comment that the black crush is due to the source, I
am referring to the apparent crush when a TV is properly calibrated. Look,
another example is how folks complained the 8g's were noisy because movies
like 300 were too grainy. Guess what? It's filmed that way!! In fact, a lot of
the stuff ends up looking noisy because of the source. In some cases, it's the
same for crush. Heck, I've seen broadcasts of the same material on 2 HD channels,
where one appears crushed and the other isn't. I'm just saying don't jump to
conclusions and blame the TV right away. My comment was solely because I
saw someone actually suggest raiding their brightness to +5 and above.

I *NEVER* said to *LOWER* the brightness, but I am saying don't *INCREASE*
the brightness too much. READ READ READ carefully again and don't put
words in my mouth. Heck, you make me sound like an idiot and go far as to
suggest I am one too. Thanks a bunch buddy! I understand what you're getting
at about advice people give, but consider the context around the advice. You
mention beware of advice on forums... well, beware of making assumptions on
threads without reading the whole thread. There's a reason I said what I said.

maybe you ned to re-read that again

CRT not Plasma

Well in this case Pioneer and their manual is wrong about calling it a CRT monitor. When it is actually a plasma and not a CRT.
It looks like Pioneer must have left the some of old the warnings for CRT based sets in the plasma manuals.

Did you say that in your original post? No you didn't. I am not assuming anything. I made a comment based on what you typed... I have no idea what you are referencing unless you state it in your post..... I am sorry for not interpreting your post correctly.

When is there going to be an official 9G settings thread? Will D-Nice be posting any Elite settings or just settings for 5020/6020's?

Most importantly, is it even remotely possible to get a D65 grayscale without a professional calibration (i.e. are the sets consistent enough that someone else's D65 settings would work on my set)?

Not that I have a problem with getting a pro calibration, just that the guy I like to use (Craig Rounds) usually takes months to schedule.

rlarsen,

I'm not trying to upset anyone here, I just want to point out that the blotch effect would be easier to see with the break in DVD. If you don't see it now, I'm sure you won't see it with regular video content.

With that being said, I see a blotchy screen (effect, and I'm not saying you have it) just from both of the images you posted. Here are the same images with increased contrast to make it easier to see what I see even with your regular pictures.



There's some similarities with mine, but the patterns are a little different. First the before and then after (with increased contrast to make the blotchy effect to stand out.) Interesting that you have light areas and dark areas that have similar pattens as mine. Again, I don't even know if I have what is called the "dirty screen". And I'm betting I don't even see it with regular content. But I won't know till late Monday night after the 150 hours with the break-in DVD.


If you look carefully, In this image you can make out what looks like a dirty screen effect as it's easy to see all the blotches. Makes me wonder if it needs a simple cleaning? Since I've read about how easy it is to damage the screen coating, I have not touched it...YET...


Here I've increased the contrast on the screen to exaggerate the effect I'm seeing.

Wow, well thank you for pointing out the differences!

Two questions,...ok, three!

1. Can the Blotch effect be seen with regular video content?

2. Can the "dirty screen" effect be seen with regular video content?

I only had about 20 seconds of "regular" video content displayed on my screen and did not see that "dirty screen" effect at all. I'll know more after late Monday night (after the break-in) but I think I probably won't see it.

3. Is 200 hours more of a complete break-in?

No worries... I don't think I explained myself too well anyhow so I can see where things could be misunderstood. I was continuing a discussion
that started in the thread earlier without making proper references. Oh well... my bad.

Thebarnman: You're absolutely right. Now that I've had some time to actually sit and watch the thing play away on the break-in DVD, the blotchiness/dirty screen effect has become more apparent. Since I'm not used to looking at a plasma (this is the first I've ever owned), I think I was looking right past it initially. Now it's hard to miss.

I will probably try cleaning the screen tomorrow morning as I was going to let it cool down for awhile after about 12 hours on the break-in disc. I'm just going to use the cloth it comes with, dry, and see what happens.

It's VERY noticeable now on the all-white screens of the disc.

I've also noticed a stuck sub-pixel (seems blueish on red and green screens) in the top left, although it's not visible at 5-6 feet. I might be willing to let it go if the rest of the set is okay, but I suspect the blotchiness is a returnable offense. I'm not sure I don't have a streaking issue too (my mother, who's in town for the week, actually noticed it as well).

It's not exactly silent either, it buzzes pretty good. Just not really an issue for me as the basement is usually pretty noisy and I don't really hear it that much at 5-6 feet.

Figures.

I'm glad you did not get mad at me. I was just pointing out something I could see in your pictures. One thing I was in fear of was if you did not notice till I pointed it out.

Anyway, one thing that helped improve it for me was to use the break-in settings that D-Nice set up. HOWEVER, there are two noise filters that are not listed in D-Nice's settings since they apparently are not in the 8G series.

The point is, all four of them should be turned off. (only two are listed in D-Nice's settings). About a day after I started to use the break-in DVD, I read that those two other noise filters should be off and so when I went to turn them off, it helped smooth out that "dirty-screen" effect. Now it's much harder to see them.

Also from reading this thread, the break-in period also helps with the "dirty screen" effect. It's to the point where it's not as noticeable as it used to be.

Most important, I don't think you or I would be able to see this effect with "reguar" video content. Even if we looked very hard for it. I know once I get my set "broke-in", I will be looking at regular video content to see if I can see the "dirty-screen" effect.

I don't think we have too much to worry about.

About cleaning the glass. It's been posted in this forum as how to do it without ruining the filter on the front of the glass. Don't use any cleaning liquids either. I don't even know if it's ok to use the cloth that came with the Kuro. Someone else might be able to ring in with that information.

I'll be waiting to hear how it turns out for you after you do your cleaning. And most important of all is to use D-Nice's break-in settings and turn off ALL the noise filters.

Sorry to hear about your stuck sub-pixel. It might fix itself with the break-in DVD with the break-in settings. I've got my fingers crossed!


Here is a whole thread about cleaning the screen (I'll also have to read it!!)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798122

Break-in Settings...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858851 (First Post)

Are you sure the filter is on the outside? I always assumed it was on the inside..

How do I clean my flat panel TV?
To clean the screen surface, gently wipe it with the supplied dry cloth. Rubbing hard on the screen can scratch
the special film coating. Use a clean soft cloth (cotton or flannel, for example) for the TV cabinet. For details on
cleaning, refer to “6.3 Cleaning Methods.”

6.3 Cleaning Methods
Before cleaning your flat panel TV, unplug the power cord from the outlet.
When cleaning the screen or the glossy front bezel, gently wipe with a clean, dry cloth such as the supplied
cleaning cloth or a similar type of soft cloth (e.g., cotton, flannel, etc.). Avoid a wet or damp cloth as that can let
moisture seep into the panel. A dusty or rough-textured cloth (or if you rub too hard) can scratch surfaces.
Note: Do not use liquid cleaners or aerosol cleaners on the screen.
The chassis or cabinet of the panel is mostly composed of plastic. Do not use chemicals such as benzene or paint
thinner to clean the cabinet. These chemicals can mar the finish or cause other deterioration. When cleaning the
cabinet, use the same type of cloth and method as described for the front bezel.
Note: Do not affix labels, tapes, etc. to any visible location on the flat panel TV. Adhesives can discolor or mar the
panel surfaces.

This read is interesting...
I'm pointing it out because I think someone had stated there were just over 2 million pixels but it is reading to be 6.2 million. I guess that number comes from the fact that there are 3 sub pixels for every pixel. Also, it states for the "Elite" series models. I wonder if the non Elites have less...that just would not make sense. It's probably old wording for when they were still making 720p glass?




Pixel Information
Plasma screens show picture using pixels. Pioneer flat panel TVs contain a very large number of pixels. The size
of the panel determines the number of pixels. With the ELITE Series models, there are over 6.2 million pixels in
the 50/60 panel. All Pioneer display panels are manufactured using a very high level of ultra-precision
technology and undergo individual quality control.

And you would know through the tons of processing that goes through to make bluerays and dvds what is off the tape of the film? Go grab those tape rolls and put them through your plasma and then come let me know what the director did or didn't do...

This is something I have questioned from the shots I have seen. In dark scenes, some things look wonderful, but in other scenes, you cannot see part of the picture since it's blacked out.

I'm very curious how these amazing black levels are A) Destroying the overall PQ or B) Giving a more "subjectively accurate" look vs. the past 8G and even the Pro model 7G set.

This whole thing about blacks seems overblown...I just dont feel comfortable to take delivery of the 151FD with the blotching,details....I rushed and placed an order because I did not want to lose out on my opprtunity to get the last pioneer glass and also the F...ing HYPE about the blacks....
who the hell wants to see just a black screen where there was supposed to be an image....
and how would you know what the director wants you to be able to see and what not to see....

I think you are confused about black level. Just because a TV has great black levels does not mean that it's images/details will be dark. The black level gives more "pop" to colors and more depth to the picture. IMO, the black level actually makes these TVs better at reproducing tiny detail. And you bought a PRO-151FD, in part, for the many finite picture adjustments that it is capable of. As you can see from somebody's daytime photo of a 6020 below, these TV's are plenty bright and have great contrast. I think the blotching issue is being overblown as well.

http://www.marketnews.ca/videos_detail.asp?vid=131

If you watch that video closely and compare the 9G with the 8G, I can see more picture details in the 8G compared to the 9G even though the guy insists that we can tell the difference only if we watch closely.
I am not TV expert but I could tell that the 9G screen was showing just black screen where there was actually an image in the 8G.
If you dont trust me just pause the video where the guy shows both 8G and 9G together

This is probably what some of the dealers on the forum are concerned about

Do you currently own a pioneer ...or are you waiting for one just like me

My 151 is running the break-in dvd as we speak. I have only watched about an hour of planet earth on blu ray but can promise you that the image quality is nothing short of stunning.