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The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 236

post #7051 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

How close are you sitting?

You know, after reading through his post again, it seems you may have hit the nail on the head. He is seeing the SDE.
post #7052 of 30259
I was finishing up Star wars , force unleashed last night and decided to try out game mode. Can someone tell me if Game mode is a definete recommendation for gaming? and why ? I didnt really notice a difference, but maybe because i didnt know what to look for. Maybe thats a good thing.

Thanx Chris
post #7053 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

Is it brand new?
How many hours (rough guess) do you have on it?
How did you break it in?

It seems as though you may be seeing streaking and blotching. We are aware of this. I wouldn't be too concerned, as it does disipate over time. Not to mention, the overall PQ (believe this or not) gets better after the first 500hrs!

You will notice that overall uniformity becomes parallel, and the blacks become richer.

Just give the panel some time. I am sure you have some sort of 30 day return on it, yes? If so, give it the 30 days. If you don't see any improvement, return, and get yourself another one.

Either way, congratulations on purchasing the best flat panel in the business.

I hope you have a nice surround sound system to go with it .



I agree with this assessment , the panel may have some uneveness in the picture, it will look alot better in 500 + hrs, or so says the 1150 I have. My pro111 shows what you have but it only has 210 hrs on it. I wouldn't bother returning it because its normal for a new panel to look like this.

I think the break in dvd shows makes this uneveness more obvious because not all of the pixels are aging at the same rate, so the colored screens kinda increases this look for awhile. Just enjoy the tv and not worry about it. I have seen some that over time its much less obvious, you just have to have some patience
post #7054 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackvette94 View Post

because not all of the pixels are aging at the same rate

Next thing you know people will be claiming this is a defect that should be covered under warranty
post #7055 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurohelp View Post

Hi guys, this is my first post on here, so please bear with me. I just bought a new PRO-111FD and the picture quality is awesome. But I have noticed two things that keep bothering me and I don't know if they are normal or if I am just being paranoid as I shelled-out 4k for this thing.

First: During some scenes that are in the blue or light tan/off white spectrum, I swear I can see really light, almost transparent, lines on the screen. They are very faint, but I swear I can see them. I especially notice them on sky scenes. I first saw them watching "Iron Man" on Blu-Ray. I can see them sometimes when watching cable on my Satellite too. Has anyone else seem this, or am I just crazy?

Second: When the TV is on but there is nothing playing on the screen, its full black, it looks as though there is some light being emitted onto the screen along the bottom frame. Again, it's faint, and its not a solid line of anything, but it is noticeably lighter, like kind of cloudy but just along the bottom of the screen. When I am watching a dark scene and using the whole panel, no bars on the side, I swear that dark scene looks lighter along the bottom where I noticed this when the screen is off. Does the panel power itself from the bottom of the screen, and is this normal, or is this something I should be worried about?

Like I said, I might just be paranoid, so I figured I'd ask here because I know you guys will have the answer.

Thanks!

Welcome!

Haven't noticed the "transparent lines" on mine... Like the poster above said, give it 30 days and go from there.

The full black screen with nothing playing and slightly lighter area at the bottom is normal and I think we all have it. It does not affect the quality of the picture.
post #7056 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzGuyy View Post

There isn't one (at least not that anyone has published). There is no code, even hidden, built into the Pioneer remotes. Service people need a different service remote that has the codes. ControlCal is the only way to access the service menu at this time.

For clarification, there is a code to get in using the standard remote, but I'm not able to post it.

Eliab
post #7057 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepin View Post

Michael also demonstrated to me why calibrating in the ISFccc mode versus Movie mode is making a noteworthy difference. It was great to see with my own two eyes the differences between a calibrated Movie mode and an ISFccc mode on the same set and environment.

I have much respect for Michael as he was a great influence to me in my early days and I'm certain that he left you with a magnificent picture.

However, I have achieved the exact same desirable results within the Pure mode verses the ISFccc. In other words, when all the ducks are lined up in a row, and a critical viewing mode is created, there is no perceptual or measurable difference between the two methods of calibration. That said, the ISFccc mode is certainly more versatile - and in some systems might be very beneficial. My report, which will be published either Tuesday or Wednesday of next week, will go into this further. But let me state emphatically, that when the goal is to create a reference setting for critical evening or a controlled lighting situation, there is no difference between Pure mode and ISFccc - at least one that I've discovered thus far.

Eliab
post #7058 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by russwong View Post

Interesting observation by Ken regarding the ISFccc vs pure. Wonder if Eliab is going to come to the same conclusion. Does calibrated ISFccc different from calibrated Pure?

ISFccc offers much more flexibility, which may or may not be needed for a particular system. It also offers more parameters, although I've not found any use for them so far.

If one is wanting to attain the best quantifiable picture that the system can muster, and one that would be congruent with a darkened environment, I can see no benefit one way or another in terms of picture quality. But again, in certain systems, the ISFccc would afford a level of flexibility that may be very beneficial.

Eliab
post #7059 of 30259
Eliab, it seems to me that the ISFccc mode allows for more punch without crushing of whites. I don't think the Pure mode can achieve these values without white crush.
post #7060 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Hey Russ. Yes, it's been reported that the ISFccc mode does indeed produce a higher output for similar settings in Pure mode.

This is kind of a non-issue. The goal isn't to attain the same readings with the same values, but rather the same picture when everything is said and done, regardless of what the actual values within each mode end up being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Peak values are considerably higher, but importantly, without crushing whites! We are not talking about subtle differences either.

True. But the additional light output would, quite frankly, not be desirable in most environments. While it is true that the display would still be in its linear operating range (i.e., not clipping whites), the phosphors would be driven considerably harder, thus potentially shortening the lifespan of the display, not to mention produce a picture that would be sub-par as one with less overall light output.

Eliab
post #7061 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Eliab, it seems to me that the ISFccc mode allows for more punch without crushing of whites. I don't think the Pure mode can achieve these values without white crush.

You are correct about it not clipping the whites and having more light output within the ISFccc mode. But, the Pure mode has plenty of "punch" if calibrated correctly. In fact, it can easily yield 35 fl post-calibration, which is certainly sufficient for most environments.

My only point is that the additional light output that the ISFccc mode would afford isn't really a selling point in my book as the Pure mode already affords more than enough. Again, the major benefit to the ISFccc mode is one of versatility, which may or may not be needed in one's system.

Eliab
post #7062 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

This is kind of a non-issue. The goal isn't to attain the same readings with the same values, but rather the same picture when everything is said and done, regardless of what the actual values within each mode end up being.

Then this raises the question of why did Pioneer even bother with an ISFccc mode? To simply lock out settings? Not sure I agree here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

True. But the additional light output would, quite frankly, not be desirable in most environments. While it is true that the display would still be in its linear operating range (i.e., not clipping whites), the phosphors would be driven considerably harder, thus potentially shortening the lifespan of the display, not to mention produce a picture that would be sub-par as one with less overall light output.

Eliab

Well here I agree and disagree. I agree that the lifespan can be potentially reduced as the result of driving the panel & phospors harder. However I disagree that many people wouldn't find the picture more desirable. In fact the biggest complaint heard about Kuros and plasmas in general, is a lack of punch. I can't imagine that even some of those critics wouldn't be satisfied with the ISFccc potential.

I think the real danger with this mode is that one has to be more careful with the material you watch...particularly when the panel is new. The chances for IR or burn-in are heightened I would suspect.
post #7063 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwest54 View Post

My calibrator with JD Labs here in the Boston area says the difference is a myth that has been debunked through benchtesting.

You're referring to Jim Doolittle - a close friend and one of the best video specialists/calibrators in the industry.

There is a difference, however, it isn't one that most people wanting the best image for evening presentation would want. In that respect, Jim is absolutely correct.

Eliab
post #7064 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Then this raises the question of why did Pioneer even bother with an ISFccc mode? To simply lock out settings? Not sure I agree here.

Two reasons: Versatility and it separates them from the competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Well here I agree and disagree. I agree that the lifespan can be potentially reduced as the result of driving the panel & phospors harder. However I disagree that many people wouldn't find the picture more desirable. In fact the biggest complaint heard about Kuros and plasmas in general, is a lack of punch. I can't imagine that even some of those critics wouldn't be satisfied with the ISFccc potential.

I'm sure there are people that would prefer the extra light output. In that regard, I would have to agree with you. However, in a controlled lighting situation, 45fl would be way too bright for most critical viewers (KURO owners) - even with bias lighting. It could also potentially interfere with perceptual shadow detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I think the real danger with this mode is that one has to be more careful with the material you watch...particularly when the panel is new. The chances for IR or burn-in are heightened I would suspect.

That's true also.

Eliab
post #7065 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by subhash_i View Post

David Abrams calibrated my 151fd on wednesday. Isf night for 6500-6525k and day for b&w movies around 5400k.

That's how I have mine setup as well. I absolutely LOVE the 5400k/ISF Night since I'm a huge classic cinema buff!

Quote:
Originally Posted by subhash_i View Post

Mine is mostly dark room only and is set at 34.8flt. I am trying to get used to these new modes and settings. They sure does have more pop than pure settings of D-Nice i had earlier(31.2 flt).

Don't forget that D-Nice's settings were general recommendations that were not finally tuned settings for your system. Had Dave calibrated your display within the Pure mode, 35 fl would have been achievable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subhash_i View Post

Also colours appear more vivid. It took around 2:30 hours for the full calibration.

Same as above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subhash_i View Post

It definitely looks to me worth it to have isf modes activated but it is definitely taking me time to adjust for these new settings. Overall a positive and pleasing experience

In your case, I would have to agree because you are now conveniently setup for a reference D6500 color temperature setting for color presentation and a 5400k setting for B&W material.

Eliab
post #7066 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by baddgsx View Post

I was finishing up Star wars , force unleashed last night and decided to try out game mode. Can someone tell me if Game mode is a definete recommendation for gaming? and why ? I didnt really notice a difference, but maybe because i didnt know what to look for. Maybe thats a good thing.

Thanx Chris

The idea behind game mode is that it reduce input lag to less then 1 ms, but only if you choose game control preference in the options menu. I have noticed that when you do this the screen goes to power save mode 2, which means your contrast is snuffed, they whites don't nearly as good and the uneveness on the screen is much more apparent!
post #7067 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackvette94 View Post

The idea behind game mode is that it reduce input lag to less then 1 ms, but only if you choose game control preference in the options menu. I have noticed that when you do this the screen goes to power save mode 2, which means your contrast is snuffed, they whites don't nearly as good and the uneveness on the screen is much more apparent!

Yeah , i noticed that in game mode it didnt look as punchy. I didnt notice lag in standard mode and i guess will continue using that instead.
post #7068 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by baddgsx View Post

Yeah , i noticed that in game mode it didnt look as punchy. I didnt notice lag in standard mode and i guess will continue using that instead.


I think thats a good idea, although in theory game mode sounds great for games, the picture quality in game mode can't compare to PURE or standard mode. I can't tell a difference with input lag :0
post #7069 of 30259
I would like to argue that having greater than 40fL light output is beneficial for many owners as they do use their plasmas in non-ideal environments (i.e. during the day with blinds/curtains open). Several Pros are taking advantage of this for their clients with positive results (results they were unable to obtain in the past with the 9G's until they started activating the ISFccc Interface). You simply cannot calibrate Pure mode for both a critical viewing environment and an environment described above (and I don't' doubt that the majority of owners also watch their 9G's in a non-ideal environment). Many llike to focus in on the ideal enviroment, many owners have to deal with their real world enviroment and Pure cannot handle both (Can the 9G Pioneers using the ISFccc Interface be beat by any other consumer display in these non-ideal environments?)

Another discussion involves why owners are preferring a calibrated ISFccc memory vs calibrated Pure (calibrated by the same Professional) for their critical viewing environment. I find this interesting. No one is making these people post these opinions.

I still feel the primary benefit to the ISFccc Interface are the additional memories/AV Selections (and locked) available per Input. There have been additional changes to the ISFccc Interface this generation and many are posting about this now.

This has been a long road for me (and Pioneer NA) as many Professionals had abandoned the ISFccc Interface generations ago. There were many non-believers. This 'myth' statement may have been true for previous generations, have they actually calibrated/used the ISFccc Interface in the 9G's? Do they not have customers that use their 9G's in non-ideal environments? Again, I would argue that there is a benefit for many owners beyond the additional memories/AV Selections Per Input.

Note: The ISFccc Interface has always been preferred for calibration in the UK/Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzGuyy View Post

Under what circumstances would you need that much brightness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scooper750 View Post

In a well lit room.

Plus consider that you should be shooting for maximum dynamic range as long as there is no clipping, discoloration (color shift) and eye fatigue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scooper750 View Post

For the ambient lighting of the room during the day, the 42 ftl worked out great. Never did push the set to the limit of clipping so can't be sure how far beyond 42 ftl I could have gone. I hit 42ftl and for the given environment figured that was enough.
post #7070 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

I would like to argue that having greater than 40fL light output is beneficial for many owners as they do use their plasmas in non-ideal environments (i.e. during the day with blinds/curtains open).

I would like to argue that for those individuals - you're correct. But frankly, the overwhelming majority of the people that hire me are viewing their displays either in the evening or in a light controlled environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Several Pros are taking advantage of this for their clients with positive results (results they were unable to obtain in the past with the 9G's until they started activating the ISFccc Interface).

If by positive you mean increased light output, than I would concur. However, it is only potentially beneficial if the viewing environment is flooded with light. And under such circumstances, no display is capable of rendering an accurate image. Again, the majority of my clients are infinitely more concerned about attaining the best image possible for critical presentation. Having said that, I'm certain that there are many that would prefer the brightest image possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

You simply cannot calibrate Pure mode for both a critical viewing environment and an environment described above (and I don't' doubt that the majority of owners also watch their 9G's in a non-ideal environment).

I agree. But that is a non-issue for me and the vast majority of my clients. My goal is to calibrate a display as closely to system standards as can be had on it and its associated gear. If they want increased light output, they can turn Energy Save off and increase contrast to 40.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Many llike to focus in on the ideal enviroment, many owners have to deal with their real world enviroment and Pure cannot handle both (Can the 9G Pioneers using the ISFccc Interface be beat by any other consumer display in these non-ideal environments?)

Believe me, I'm not knocking the ISFccc interface. Personally I LOVE IT and think you did an outstanding job with ControlCal! The flexibility that it affords can be incredibly beneficial in some systems (like mine ). The only thing that I'm stating is that the increased light output wouldn't be beneficial if one is looking to attain the absolute best image possible for critical presentation - that's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Another discussion involves why owners are preferring a calibrated ISFccc memory vs calibrated Pure (calibrated by the same Professional) for their critical viewing environment. I find this interesting. No one is making these people post these opinions.

This is entirely beyond my understanding as I have tested this thoroughly over the last two days with absolutely no difference whatsoever - none. I am more than happy to be corrected on this, but all of my testing - and again, I own a 111 myself - has concluded that they will both offer the same quality image if calibrated correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

I still feel the primary benefit to the ISFccc Interface are the additional memories/AV Selections (and locked) available per Input. There have been additional changes to the ISFccc Interface this generation and many are posting about this now.

I couldn't possibly agree with you more. The fact that I can switch between a reference color and B&W mode is phenomenal and well worth the price of admission for me. Many of my clients whose 111 & 151s I'll be calibrating soon, are eager for these modes as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

This has been a long road for me (and Pioneer NA) as many Professionals had abandoned the ISFccc Interface generations ago. There were many non-believers. This 'myth' statement may have been true for previous generations, have they actually calibrated/used the ISFccc Interface in the 9G's? Do they not have customers that use their 9G's in non-ideal environments?

Your work is tremendously appreciated! I myself, will use the ISFccc method for my own 111, not because of the increased light output, but because of the convenience of switching between color and B&W modes. PLEASE keep up your great work!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Again, I would argue that there is a benefit for many owners beyond the additional memories/AV Selections Per Input.

I respect your argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Note: The ISFccc Interface has always been preferred for calibration in the UK/Europe.

And in many of my upcoming Pioneer jobs, it'll likely be the preferred method as well.

Eliab
post #7071 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

The fact that I can switch between a reference color and B&W mode is phenomenal and well worth the price of admission for me. Many of my clients whose 111 & 151s I'll be calibrating soon, are eager for these modes as well.



I want to calibrate one memory for B&W too...

I run everything through an AVR, but I use a hdmi matrix switch to output to my Pioneer and Projector. I will send another output from the switch to one additional Input on this Pioneer.. I want to end up with 1 memory for D65 (light controlled environment) 709, 1 for D65 (light issues) 709, 1 for b&w and 1 for SD DVD (just for some testing I want to do).

Outside NA, many have been using one of the memories for SD or b&w in additional to D65 (BR/HD DVD) for sometime... again I want to point out that the ISF Memory Labels are meaningless, they can be used/calibrated as you see fit (i.e. Day doesn't have to be used when ambient light control is an issue). I am constantly getting questions in regards to the labels, some are still confusing these with the AV Selection Modes, they are not modes, rather fully adjustable memories.
post #7072 of 30259
As someone with both sensitive eyes and a tendency to motion sickness, I find Pure mode quite bright enough. In fact, I've had to turn the brightness down (to -5 currently), to alleviate the dizziness/nausea I've had when watching. If either ISF mode makes the set brighter, I don't want it.
post #7073 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

For clarification, there is a code to get in using the standard remote, but I'm not able to post it.

Eliab

With all due respect, there was absolutely no point in posting that. Unless you like the attention of people asking you for it so you can say "no."
post #7074 of 30259
You beat me Prog, I was just going to ask for it too.
post #7075 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

With all due respect, there was absolutely no point in posting that. Unless you like the attention of people asking you for it so you can say "no."

No, in Eliabs defense there is a point in posting what he said because nobody here has confirmed that there IS in fact a code to get into the service menu. Its the FACTS!

He isnt going to give the code and neither is anybody else on this forum and thats the point. But you dont have to go and lie to people and say there is no code and the only way to get into the service menu is by controlcal up until this point.

Question.....is there a code to get into the service menu?....fact....yes there is.
Question.....can I have this code? I will not provide you this code, please dont ask me.

Nuff said, people arent babies here...we are all adults.
post #7076 of 30259
I find the biggest benefit to using ControlCal & the ISFccc mode is to expand the dynamic range of the picture, for lack of a better description. Without any eye fatigue, I can produce a picture with brighter whites and no crush, while maintaining the colors, blacks and shadow detail the Kuros are known for.

Want to go back to Pure mode when you want, it's there. To me this is a win win. It simply makes the Kuros a more versatile tool and makes the best display available, even better.
post #7077 of 30259
ISF MODE,

Guys, Eliab is not knocking ISF MODE. Please stop contorting this as so. He has said this several times here so far that the increase light output that ISF mode will provide does not benefit a controlled light room. What does a controlled light room mean? A room that is completely dark almost 24/7 like my home theater room. This increase light output that ISF mode provides will not benefit you and will probably burn your retinas. But! if your room is a plague of light polluted environment then by all means this WILL benefit you and hence ISF mode will be more bang for your buck.

For those with a light controlled room, ISF mode IS beneficial for switching between D6500K and D5400K (color movies and b&w movies)
post #7078 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

With all due respect, there was absolutely no point in posting that. Unless you like the attention of people asking you for it so you can say "no."

I simply wanted to clarify that there is in fact a code that can be accessed via the regular remote. Despite the fact that I cannot make it available, because of an NDA that I signed, I think the forum members should at least know that it's doable.

Eliab
post #7079 of 30259
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthmaul40 View Post

ISF MODE,

Guys, Eliab is not knocking ISF MODE. Please stop contorting this as so. He has said this several times here so far that the increase light output that ISF mode will provide does not benefit a controlled light room. What does a controlled light room mean? A room that is completely dark almost 24/7 like my home theater room. This increase light output that ISF mode provides will not benefit you and will probably burn your retinas. But! if your room is a plague of light polluted environment then by all means this WILL benefit you and hence ISF mode will more bang for you buck.

For those with a light controlled room, ISF mode IS beneficial for switching between D6500K and D5400K (color movies and b&w movies)

This is the EXACT reason I had Eliab calibrate my 151 in Pure Mode. I can tell you my picture has pleanty of "punch". I may not be one for technical jargon but my eyes don't lie. I rarely if ever watch TV in the daytime with the execption being football games on Sunday's and even then my room is not bright since I keep all the blinds closed.
post #7080 of 30259
As a non-tech fan of my 151, I'd just like to say that it makes perfect sense that my 151 would look exactly the same if calibrated for optimal conditions in Pure vs ISFccc modes. However, my viewing room is one of those non-optimal rooms that is a light sink during sunlight hours, which in the summer is until almost 9PM. For me, not having a dedicated home theater room has made ISFccc modes a blessing. So yes, there is a noticable difference between my Pure vs ISFccc picture and I do understand that the calibrated Pure is a more accurate picture when calibrated for optimal conditions, however the calibrated ISFccc modes allows me to enjoy my 151 even in my worst of conditions. When the lights are low, I now have the choice of watching a movie in Pure or ISFccc.
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