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BH200 firmware watch... - Page 2

post #31 of 2794
Hey, I hope it happens. But I don't think we can put any store in what LG may have said to a reviewer in 2007 when they were still fully in the combo game.
post #32 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterjcat View Post

Hey, I hope it happens. But I don't think we can put any store in what LG may have said to a reviewer in 2007 when they were still fully in the combo game.

Fine how about what LG has said in several official documents?

Here's a link to the official PDF Spec sheet:

Linkage

Note on page 2 under the section "HD Playback Features" the last item in that section is "Networked Content Access" under HD DVD it has a dot indicating that it is capable of that feature out of the box and under Blu-ray it says "ready". That alone indicates that the device is BD Profile 2.0 ready

In addition to the official Spec sheet there is this press release from LG:

Linkage

Note the following from the "One Player Latest Technology" section:

"With full networked interactivity available from selected HD DVDs, and the capability to handle networked BD-Live interactivity in forthcoming Blu-ray discs , it is the latest available technology that plays both disc formats."

That's makes it pretty clear that LG intends (or intended) to make the BH-200 2.0 compliant.

The fact that LG has discontinued the BH200 does not bode well, but if they make the BH200 2.0 capable they could then release a BD only 2.0 Player and still keep the premium price on the BH200s in the supply-chain. The documents I linked above could also be used as grounds for a class action suit against LG if the BH200 does not become BD Profile 2.0 compliant and I'm pretty certain that LG would like to avoid the pleasantries their cross town rival has experienced with the BDP-1200.
post #33 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by fistofsouth View Post

That's makes it pretty clear that LG intends (or intended) to make the BH-200 2.0 compliant.

Unless I missed it, I don't think arguments were made that the BH200 is not capable of 2.0 through an upgrade, rather, I think the arguments are that there is no guarantee LG will supply the upgrade. As you say, it appears to have been their intention, so now the question is: Will they?
post #34 of 2794
Its not a question of whether it can handle the firmware because LG states it is profile 2.0 ready... Its a question of whether or not LG will make it profile 2.0... Samsung's updated product resource center lists the bd-up5000 as profile 1.1 ready and say that the firmware to make it so is already out but states that only the 1500 will get a profile 2.0 upgrade soon. All we can do now is hope and wait for LG to make the player profile 2.0
post #35 of 2794
My hopes for the next firmware update are to eliminate the DD+/DTS-HD tracking issue. My next hope would be for disc compatability issues. Next would add functions such as a: time remaining and bitrate metering functions and also to be able to hit the display button and be able to change the HD DVD options like you can in BD.

I'd love to see all those changes.

As for the 2.0 upgrade, I do believe in my heart of hearts that it's coming but not until after LG releases their latest BD player.
post #36 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Madness View Post

Its not a question of whether it can handle the firmware because LG states it is profile 2.0 ready... Its a question of whether or not LG will make it profile 2.0...

Hey!

Isn't that what I just said?!
post #37 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew2k View Post

Unless I missed it, I don't think arguments were made that the BH200 is not capable of 2.0 through an upgrade, rather, I think the arguments are that there is no guarantee LG will supply the upgrade. As you say, it appears to have been their intention, so now the question is: Will they?

I guess some posters missed my point. I did not make my earlier post to argue that the BH-200 is capable of BD 2.0, I made it to indicate that LG has said the BH-200 WILL BE 2.0 compliant. They released a press statement (the one I linked earlier) that said they intended to make the BH-200 compliant. Since LG has indicated future BD Live capability in at least two official BH-200 documents they will be leaving themselves open to a lawsuit if they do not update the BH-200 to Profile 2.0.

Samsung already faced a class-action lawsuit because the BDP-1200 was not capable of playing several BDs. The 1200 was advertised as playing BDs and since there were some it could not play Samsung is now in court. Since LG is constantly trying to prove that they are a better CE than their cross-town rival (Samsung) I suspect the BH-200 will be made BD 2.0 compliant at some point just so LG can "scoreboard" Samsung. I agree with other posters that BD 2.0 compliance may take a while and that there are other, more pressing issues that LG must resolve with the BH-200, but I do think BD Live will eventually be added to the BH-200.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davcole View Post

Next would add functions such as a: time remaining and bitrate metering functions and also to be able to hit the display button and be able to change the HD DVD options like you can in BD.

Well if they were to move to a unified menu system I would prefer that they modify, if possible, the BD Menu system activation process to mimic that of the HD DVD menu system. I have a bias, but it does seem more intuitive to hit one of the large, well placed up (Warner, Paramount, TWC) or right (Universal, some Imports) directional buttons instead of searching for which menu button activates a BD menu.

The HD DVD menu system also provides the time remaining function you alluded to alternately you can pause an HD DVD and the time remaining bar will immediately pop-up along the bottom.
post #38 of 2794
Not sure why you have to use a different button to bring up BD menus vs. HD DVD. Though I can't recall whether we mapped "Title/Popup" or "Disc Menu" to our universal remote...point is, that one button brings up the menu for both disc types (I think it was the "Popup" button, since those menus are essentially popups.

Time remaining shouldn't depend on how the disc is authored. Only some HD DVDs show the time remaining bar. The A3 shows time remaining for everything--main feature, special features, etc. Just press Display. Current time is displayed on-screen, while time remaining is displayed on the LCD front panel of the player.

The absence of time remaining is one of the first things I noticed as missing in the BH200. Certainly hope they can add it.
post #39 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilblue View Post

Only some HD DVDs show the time remaining bar. The A3 shows time remaining for everything--main feature, special features, etc. Just press Display.

I would say most HD DVDs have a time remaining bar; every Universal, Warner and Paramount HD DVD I have tested on the 200 has a time remaining bar. I have not gone through all of my 112 HD DVDs yet (I've only used about 40 of them on the 200 so far) so perhaps I'll notice something later on.

My A2 also provides time remaining on every disc with the display button, but as you noted, that is a player specific function that has not been implemented on the 200 thus far. I was only pointing out that AA HD DVDs all seem to have a time remaining bar when a film is paused so if LG never adds time remaining to the 200 there are still several hundred HD DVDs that will display time remaining with the touch of the pause button.

Here's hoping LG will add a time remaining function in a future update.
post #40 of 2794
my fingers have been crossed for a profile 2.0 update since the big April update!
post #41 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterjcat View Post

Hey, I hope it happens. But I don't think we can put any store in what LG may have said to a reviewer in 2007 when they were still fully in the combo game.

Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fistofsouth View Post

In addition to the official Spec sheet there is this press release from LG: Linkage

It's dated September 2007.

Things have changed so much now. I doubt LG would release a press release saying that now. Remember Samsung (and I think LG) promised their Lossless firmware months before it actually came. LG have since said they've been selling Combos at a loss. I doubt they'll want to spend much more money on hardware they're not making any money out of.

They had to release lossless firmware as it was promised. Profile 2.0 was not, except in that one press release. It was never promised anywhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fistofsouth View Post

The fact that LG has discontinued the BH200 does not bode well, but if they make the BH200 2.0 capable they could then release a BD only 2.0 Player and still keep the premium price on the BH200s in the supply-chain.

That's just not going to happen.

They're much more likely to spend time and money on a Profile 2.0 BD Player, which will use a different chipset so won't be compatible with the BH200. The premium price of the BH200 has gone, they're selling them at a loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fistofsouth View Post

The documents I linked above could also be used as grounds for a class action suit against LG if the BH200 does not become BD Profile 2.0 compliant.

Many things could happen, but I cannot see that happening either. Would it really be worth taking LG to court over anyway?

What is it with some people and wanting to sue everyone? . Maybe it's a cultural thing .
post #42 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilblue View Post

Not sure why you have to use a different button to bring up BD menus vs. HD DVD.

Unless I'm missing something you don't. Pop-up brings up the Pop-up menu and Disc Menu displays the legacy DVD type of menu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilblue View Post

Time remaining shouldn't depend on how the disc is authored.

That is my biggest annoyance with the LG BH200. I have to faff around going to the end and working out the difference, then going back again or just guessing (which is what I usually do).

I also find it very annoying their is no total time option. This isn't a problem for the film but extras it's very handy indeed. Thankfully like you say some discs have it authored on to them but it's such a basic function that my very first DVD Player even had.
post #43 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradavon View Post

I also find it very annoying their is no total time option. This isn't a problem for the film but extras it's very handy indeed. Thankfully like you say some discs have it authored on to them but it's such a basic function that my very first DVD Player even had.

I didn't realize how much I missed this until it wasn't available on the BH200. If they would add this and fix the stretching of 4X3 content with a future firmware update I would be pretty content with the BH200.
post #44 of 2794
The time remaining and total time features would be so easy to add too, probably the easiest firmware fix they need to do.
post #45 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradavon View Post

It's dated September 2007.

Things have changed so much now. I doubt LG would release a press release saying that now. Remember Samsung (and I think LG) promised their Lossless firmware months before it actually came. LG have since said they've been selling Combos at a loss. I doubt they'll want to spend much more money on hardware they're not making any money out of.

They had to release lossless firmware as it was promised. Profile 2.0 was not, except in that one press release. It was never promised anywhere else.

It was inferred in the official document I linked above. I understand that the press release was in 2007 and I know things have changed, but they did say they would do so and they did it on an official document. Do you have an official document where they rescinded their earlier statement? Do you have an official document that says they will no longer issue firmware updates on the BH-200? If you don't then the official position of LG seems to be that they are discontinuing the BH-200, they will continue providing firmware support for the BH-200 and they intend to make the BH-200 2.0 compliant. Period. Until they say they won't then we should assume they will because that was their last official position on the topic. It does not mean it will happen either and people should not get their hopes up, but there is no reason to poo-poo the idea when it is LGs official stance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradavon View Post

That's just not going to happen.

They're much more likely to spend time and money on a Profile 2.0 BD Player, which will use a different chipset so won't be compatible with the BH200. The premium price of the BH200 has gone, they're selling them at a loss.

Right so your saying that since they are currently selling them for a loss they should avoid any updates that might allow them to at least maintain their current loss margin? I mean if they update the BH-200 there is a reason for it to be priced equally or higher than an LG Profile 2.0 BD only device, but if they don't update it then they are probably going to need to reduce the price of the 200 even more and thus take an even bigger loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradavon View Post

Many things could happen, but I cannot see that happening either. Would it really be worth taking LG to court over anyway?

What is it with some people and wanting to sue everyone? . Maybe it's a cultural thing .

I don't have the desire to take anyone to court and if LG does not update the BH-200 to 2.0 specs I won't sue and I won't take part in a class-action suit. Funny how I pointed out what Samsung went through, how that could influence LGs decision and you have me becoming Mr. Sue-happy.

To answer your question it is a cultural thing and I'm not sure where it came from, but pointing out that it has happened to Samsung and could happen to LG does not make me a fan of the practice.
post #46 of 2794
For LG, profile 2.0 was never mandated by a certain date. But for samsung, they released the 5k AFTER the mandatory profile 1.1 date of Oct 31st and therefore MUST follow through with profile 1.1 though. But it's definitely nice if LG makes it profile 2.0.
post #47 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by fistofsouth View Post

Do you have an official document where they rescinded their earlier statement? Do you have an official document that says they will no longer issue firmware updates on the BH-200? If you don't then the official position of LG seems to be that they are discontinuing the BH-200, they will continue providing firmware support for the BH-200 and they intend to make the BH-200 2.0 compliant.

I don't disagree with any of that, just that I don't see Profile 2.0 now coming. HD-DVD is now so dead and therefore Combos with it, there is no money left in it and thus no reason to spend much more time, and therefore money on it.

I suspect Profile 2.0 would mean quite a bit of development to be done. As we say in my neck of the woods "why get your knickers in a twist?" (joke). I wonder if Vinnie has heard of that one .

Quote:
Originally Posted by fistofsouth View Post

Until they say they won't then we should assume they will because that was their last official position on the topic.

Not really, fair enough you've found one article but there plenty of articles (from LG) which just say it may come.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fistofsouth View Post

but there is no reason to poo-poo the idea when it is LGs official stance.

There's no reason to give it much thought either. It was fair to expect LG deliver Lossless audio to the player but too much to expect Profile 2.0 (i.e - buy it on this basis). LG haven't even released a Profile 2.0 BD only player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fistofsouth View Post

Right so your saying that since they are currently selling them for a loss they should avoid any updates that might allow them to at least maintain their current loss margin?

No, I am saying it's very unlikely to happen. The reality is HD-DVD and the market for Combos has all but disappeared.

Why spend money on a product you ultimately then have to sell at a loss?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fistofsouth View Post

I mean if they update the BH-200 there is a reason for it to be priced equally or higher than an LG Profile 2.0 BD only device

Sadly I doubt it. Most people will immediately see the Combo/HD-DVD tag and say they're not paying for that, LG already have to compete with the incredibely popular PS3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fistofsouth View Post

but if they don't update it then they are probably going to need to reduce the price of the 200 even more and thus take an even bigger loss.

I think the fact LG have discontinued their entire Combo range means they want to get rid of old stock and call it a day. Combos quite simply are not the future.
post #48 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradavon View Post

As we say in my neck of the woods "why get your knickers in a twist?" (joke). I wonder if Vinnie has heard of that one .

Yessir.
post #49 of 2794
Right, I must try harder .
post #50 of 2794
Quote:


I don't disagree with any of that, just that I don't see Profile 2.0 now coming. HD-DVD is now so dead and therefore Combos with it, there is no money left in it and thus no reason to spend much more time, and therefore money on it.

You continue to miss the relevant point, Brad. Of course combos are no longer a viable product. No one is debating that. You seem to believe that just because LG is no longer going to manufacture combo players that they will also no longer support the many thousands of players in consumers hands that are also Blu-ray players. Of course they will. HD DVD is only half of the BH100/BH200.
post #51 of 2794
I forgot to mention I hope they correct the stretching of 4x3 material to it's correct aspect ratio.
post #52 of 2794
@ Robert: You're missing the point . There is no money left in spending time time on either the BH100 or BH200, which pretty much counts Profile 2.0 out. I'm sure a LG Profile 2.0 Player will come but it's very unlikely to be the BH100/B200. It's just so long in the tooth now, if it was going to happen it would've happened by now.

I never said LG won't support their products, that's quite different from adding new features, which are probably tricky and time consuming to add. We're not talking about the odd problem disc here but an entire new feature, one we're not even 100% the hardware is capable of doing.

The BH100/BH200 are not BD Players, they're Combo Players. That is an important difference. Yes they obviously play BD too but the market no longer wants Combos, regardless of the fact they happen to play BD also.
post #53 of 2794
I checked the USA and Swiss sites last night, no new firmware . Last time the April firmware appeared on the Euro servers first.
post #54 of 2794
Quote:


Yes they obviously play BD too but the market no longer wants Combos, regardless of the fact they happen to play BD also

If the ebay market is any indication, then I would have to disagree. BH200s (and UP5000) seem to be selling fairly fluidly there, and often in the $500+ range (usually at least $400+). There may be no market for them at 700-900 dollars, but get down near the median Blu-player price, and people buy 'em. And why not?

Quote:


There is no money left in spending time time on either the BH100 or BH200, which pretty much counts Profile 2.0 out. I'm sure a LG Profile 2.0 Player will come but it's very unlikely to be the BH100/B200. It's just so long in the tooth now, if it was going to happen it would've happened by now.

Not sure if you've worked in the electronics/software industry before, but I have. And the name of the game is "customer good will". The software product I worked on survived for nearly two decades (unheard of for software, really) because we gave people what they wanted, even supporting user functions that were thought to be archaic in new code.

I doubt adding 2.0 functionality is that big of deal for the CEs, code-wise. If I were in charge of the LG group, I would let my superstar and veteran coders (who tend to get paid more) work on the newer products, but give the updating of earlier models firmware to interns and newbies--coders who are, by definition, trying to show their stuff. That way, it wouldn't be costing much, but would earn alot of good will with the consumer. The great thing about the whole firmware model is if the intern/newbie has a mistake slip through quality control, we can catch it in the next rev. Let the consumer make the decision whether the benefits/costs warrant an update for them or not...
post #55 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by 360_4_EVER! View Post

If the ebay market is any indication, then I would have to disagree. BH200s (and UP5000) seem to be selling fairly fluidly there, and often in the $500+ range (usually at least $400+). There may be no market for them at 700-900 dollars, but get down near the median Blu-player price, and people buy 'em. And why not?

I wonder how many though? 10-20, a few hundred of a few thousand. I've no idea how many would need to be sold before LG would consider them a success but I'm guessing more than sell on eBay, not that I know though.

Fair points on your other comments and I partially agree. I still cannot see LG spending the time or money on it now.

I used to work for a small software house where the software itself was very old (and badly in need of re-writing) but like your example it was very popular with the market it was intended for (estate agents) because it did what they wanted, better than most and it was forever being tinkered with.
post #56 of 2794
I think it would be smart for them to both release Profile 2.0 firmware for these players. The market dead? Umm, nope. I will buy one if I hear that profile 2.0 firmware is in fact confirmed.

Think of it like this: These companies already have hardware out there, and in the retail channel, that are capable of doing Profile 2.0. They and these players are in competition with other blu-ray player manufacturers. How good would it look if they can pull out a Profile 2.0 update? It would be great marketing. The PS/3 is suspected of being able to be firmware upgraded all the way to profile 2.0 (maybe not if it cannot pass high def audio streams to the AVR without first decoding). This is one of the points that helps make it a good seller NOW. Everyone knows it is the most future proof player in this half-baked format.

The LG and Samsung combo players would be selling alot better, would make all the current selling blu ray players obsolete if they simply announce that Profile 2.0 capability is coming soon.


Cost? I would wager the cost is relatively minor to develop Profile 2.0 capable firmware. There's no reason for them not to pursue making them 2.0 capable.

Combos are dead? Think again. In 2 years I bet that all players can play bluray + dvd + hd-dvd. A year ago a single lens mechanism was developed that reads both bluray and hd-dvd. It isn't going to cost much if anything to have the ability to play both built in. If they do not go this route it would simply be due to one company being too snubby to add that (something from a prior competitor) to it's products.
post #57 of 2794
Quote:
I've no idea how many would need to be sold before LG would consider them a success but I'm guessing more than sell on eBay, not that I know though.

That's a fair point. I have no idea how many they are really selling. I've found a few sitting in my local Best Buy's, but I'm in a part of the country for which HD is probably not a huge priority. I'll tell you this, though, the last time I was in a BB, the salesmen recommended the combo players to me because of "the great HD DVD deals you can get on the Internet". Kinda funny, considering they sell HD software in their store. (BR-only now, of course.)

Quote:
I used to work for a small software house where the software itself was very old (and badly in need of re-writing) but like your example it was very popular with the market it was intended for (estate agents) because it did what they wanted, better than most and it was forever being tinkered with.

Yep. I wonder how many of those Frankenstein products are out there still...? Probably thousands.

Quote:
Combos are dead? Think again. In 2 years I bet that all players can play bluray + dvd + hd-dvd. A year ago a single lens mechanism was developed that reads both bluray and hd-dvd. It isn't going to cost much if anything to have the ability to play both built in. If they do not go this route it would simply be due to one company being too snubby to add that (something from a prior competitor) to it's products.

They certainly could be that snobby, of course. From what I gather, the whole format war was created because of a bunch of chest-thumping on both sides...but that is yesterday...

Personally, I think they're marketing these combo players wrong now (and probably were even during the format war). They should market them as 'everything players', because frankly that's almost what they are--especially the LG model. They shouldn't just allow the region hacks, they should capitalize on them. Given a choice, who wouldn't want a player that can play everything fairly well? Better yet, they should up the ante on finding disks the players don't play. Instead of fixing them 'maybe' when the next firmware comes out, they should say a public "give us something it doesn't play" and then when they come, fix them within a month or two. It could change the morale on their team from being "oh, we're working on a dead-end product" to "we're working on the best darn everything player out there".

Just my two cents.
post #58 of 2794
By the way I don't think adding BD-Live will cost LG much because their engineers must (should) be working on a BD-Live player by now. All the have to do is port code over the BH200 platform or the other way around. Just my 2 cents.
post #59 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by rveras View Post

By the way I don't think adding BD-Live will cost LG much because their engineers must (should) be working on a BD-Live player by now. All the have to do is port code over the BH200 platform or the other way around. Just my 2 cents.

Good point.

Surely it would be a good idea to try and perfect the code for Blu-Ray Profile 2.0 on the BH200, with all the 'enthusiasts' from this forum (and others) at least trying it out with all sorts of disks from all over the world. This would be a good test for the code/firmware.

Then they could release a standalone Blurry player with this tried and tested code? With HD-DVD compatability (or not)

Saying that I would still like continued development with HD-DVD as I've just had to rollback my firmware )to Feb) to play Planet Earth UK, but I digress.

Just a thought.....

Matthew
post #60 of 2794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tspeer View Post

The PS/3 is suspected of being able to be firmware upgraded all the way to profile 2.0 (maybe not if it cannot pass high def audio streams to the AVR without first decoding). This is one of the points that helps make it a good seller NOW. Everyone knows it is the most future proof player in this half-baked format.

The PS3 has been Profile 2.0 for a few months now -- none of the Blu-ray profiles require bitstreaming the HD audio codecs. The PS3 can internally decode everything including full DTS-HD MA though, so it really is the player to beat.

...but now I just use it for games and the BH200 for movies.
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