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Zenith DTT901 vs Apex DT250 - Page 2

post #31 of 52
So if Consumer Reports rated the Tivax as best possible picture, would it be reasonable to assume the Apex will achieve the same?
post #32 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post

So if Consumer Reports rated the Tivax as best possible picture, would it be reasonable to assume the Apex will achieve the same?

Theoretically it should be better since they are using the same chip to decode the stream but Apex has S-Video and Tivax doesn't. Still I wouldn't bet on it.
post #33 of 52
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Consumer Reports did not rate it as having "the best possible picture" but rather in a group of four sorted by ascending price that had the "BEST PICTURE QUALITY Capable of images that come close to DVD quality." There was no discussion of what "best possible picture" might mean.

See -> http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/e...es-ratings.htm
post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post

So if Consumer Reports rated the Tivax as best possible picture, would it be reasonable to assume the Apex will achieve the same?

I think it would be reasonable to assume that any of the Zoran based converters would be the same.
These would include the boxes availabe from AccessHD, Apex. MicroGem, and Tivax

I also agree that the Apex with S-Video should have better quality.
post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsd_us3r View Post

So far the Apex sounds like a better box than the Zenith DTT901.

Zenith



The only "con" apex has is that the zenith box has been more time out in the market and has been tested more by the public.

Uh...well, the real operational "con" for the Apex is that it does NOT have the ability to manually add channels. At all. Unlike the above pic from the Zenith, which appears to show that you actually CAN add a channel manually, the Apex DT250 screws you over by forcing you to do an "autoscan" EVERY time you move the antenna orientation, if you want to "see" the channels in the new direction. This is a DESTRUCTIVE scan in that it blows away the previously-scanned channels, rather than adding to them!

So I would say that this additional 5 or so mins. added into EVERY change of the antenna means that the Apex has a HUGE disadvantage. (We personally use at least 5 different orientations to bring in analog stations from Detroit, Lansing, Flint, Saginaw, Toledo, Ontario, etc.)

Ours is going to be exchanged for something else.
post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by some_mich_guy View Post

Uh...well, the real operational "con" for the Apex is that it does NOT have the ability to manually add channels. At all. Unlike the above pic from the Zenith, which appears to show that you actually CAN add a channel manually, the Apex DT250 screws you over by forcing you to do an "autoscan" EVERY time you move the antenna orientation, if you want to "see" the channels in the new direction. This is a DESTRUCTIVE scan in that it blows away the previously-scanned channels, rather than adding to them!

So I would say that this additional 5 or so mins. added into EVERY change of the antenna means that the Apex has a HUGE disadvantage. (We personally use at least 5 different orientations to bring in analog stations from Detroit, Lansing, Flint, Saginaw, Toledo, Ontario, etc.)

Ours is going to be exchanged for something else.

Just bought a DT250. While what you're saying about the autoscan feature is true, you CAN manually type in the channel you want to view and it will add the channel to it's "library." This is not the most user-friendly option, but you can get your channels.
post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrNo07 View Post

Just bought a DT250. While what you're saying about the autoscan feature is true, you CAN manually type in the channel you want to view and it will add the channel to it's "library." This is not the most user-friendly option, but you can get your channels.

yeah...when I first got my boxes, the problems (which I and others mentioned in earlier posts) seemed annoying. but now after I've been using them for a few weeks, and having heard the problems that some of the other boxes are having (like the DTVPal), I'm somewhat pleased with the DT250.

It's not the best box, but its definately in the top 5...with the ones by Channel master and Zenith doing as well or a little better, from what I'm guessing.
post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwiser View Post

Hello all...long time lurker first time poster here, but hopefully I have something to bring to the table as far as these CECBs go. ( Mods, please move this post if it would do members more good in another thread )

I ordered my coupons some time ago, with them expiring on the 27th of this month. I've been anxiously waiting the release of the free TR-40, then free DTVPal, and now $59.99 DTVPal before my coupons expire but it looks like I'm out of luck(and have grown more frustrated by the day as each new tidbit was released), so the DT250 looks like my best option.

I'm actually relieved that BB is gonna be carrying them, as it likely means I can go buy some Insignias before my coupons expire and exchange them for the DT250s... if the BB's in my area would ever carry them. It seems like eastern US states (like PA where I'm at) aren't getting these things as quickly as western US states.

I found out something interesting today, which I'm hoping will be useful/interesting, though maybe upsetting news to those who are planning to buy the DT250, or even the Insignia. With less than 4 days until my coupons expire, I went to my local BB today to see if the Insignia's that they carried were the -APT (pass through), which they weren't (and even if they were, the salespeople wouldn't know, as I asked one if the boxes they had have the APT feature and the guy said "yeah, if you have an analog TV you can use these").

At any rate, there's a Kiosk at BB that lets you look for items in the store or on BB's website, but it also serves as an employee Kiosk for them to check inventory, pricing, order status, etc. As I walked by, I noticed that some employee had left themselves logged in, and with me chomping at the bit to know if and when the DT250's were gonna come in, I quickly jumped in. (As an aside, and contrary to what I'm about to tell you, all BB employees must be required to push the Insignia boxes, as they will claim that they are the only boxes BB will be selling, whish is a lie) I was surprised at all the info that they have on there. The good news I found out was that my store has 70 on order (but not in transit yet)...and there are over 600 total on order within about 100 miles or so radius.

The disappointing news cam when I clicked on a link on the paged titled "Advanced pricing" which displayed this: while BB is selling the DT250 boxes for $59.99, the cost to them per box is $38.50. I about fell in the floor when I read that.

I'm annoyed to say the least. Anyway, knowing that they jacked up the price on the DT250, I decided to check the price of the Insignia's and again I discovered they're selling them for $59.99 but they cost the company $39.30.

I guess what bothers me the most is, aside from the lack of supply for many of the better boxes that we're looking for; we're being forced to buy these boxes if we wanna have TV after Feb 2009. I would be willing to bet that the coveted DTVPal really does cost only $39.99 as it was advertised, but they're gonna go for $59.99.

Instead of taking advantage of us by adding 50% to the price of these boxes, stores like BB would be smart to give us them in exchange for the coupon. If we could just go in, hand them our coupon, and leave with the box without paying them a dime...they would still be making $1.50 profit per box that they sell! If they were advertised as "free" with the coupon, and 1 million people bought them that would 1.5 million dollars in Best Buy's pockets.

It's very disheartening. I wish I could have printed out those screens, but the stupid printer that was attached to the kiosk kept saying it was out of paper and even though I checked it...I couldn't do too much without attracting the attention of the BB employees that wander around. I did manage to snap a picture of the screens with my cell phone...but it's such a crappy camera phone that you can barely read it. Not like it would really do me much good anyway...I doubt the manager of the store would be willing to give me the boxes for the price of the coupon in exchange for me deleting the pictures or something.

Anyway, sorry for such a long first message...but I hope it was worth it and the information is helpful. I certainly have found these forums to be a big help over the last few months at keeping me informed on these CECB's.

Hello,

After working for many years in stores like BB, I would like to add a point. The price displayed on the in-store terminals is NOT the price the company actually pays. This is the price the store pays to their distribution center for the item. It sounds wierd but the company buys the item from the manufacture then marks it up (for profit and shipping) and then re-sells it to their stores. So even if the store sells it at cost, the company makes a small mark up. This way it is easier to track store sales, profitability and account for local price changes due to competetion. Of course the store would be in trouble quickly if they did not make some profit.

The real crook here I believe is Apex themselves. They have been advirtising for months, when the unit was not available, that it retailed for $49.95. Two other retailers also advirtised similar pricing. Then as soon as it became available they raised the retail to $59.95 with no explanation or reason. The two retailers that advirtised the similar pricing have dropped the Apex DT250 entirely. WHY? It really looks like Apex decided to sort of "bait and switch" with the pricing. That is draw heavy interest with good options and pricing then switch the price to make a heavier profit before actual product delivery. Not a true bait and switch maybe, but not a resonable business practice either. It still appears to be the best box available. But I really think APEX owes thier customers some expanation and apology for the mis-representation!
post #39 of 52
Last week I exchanged my Apex DT250 for an Insignia NS-DXA1-APT manufactured in June 2008. The Apex was working fine with the exception of a composite video cable that was DOA, but I was swayed to try the Insignia by the enthusiasm of people on this forum for the functionally identical Zenith DTT900/DTT901.

I found that the Insignia offers a better overall experience than the Apex, although it doesn't come out ahead on all counts. Here's my head-to-head comparison of the two boxes. (My comments regarding the Insignia should also apply to the DTT901.)

Reception

Automatic channel scanning took about one minute on the Insignia versus over five minutes on the Apex. The Insignia also has a feature that the Apex lacks: if any channels were missed on the initial scan, new channels can be added easily without disturbing the old ones by using the EZ-Add rescan feature. Both boxes offer the ability to add channels by entering them manually from the remote.

The Insignia's LG-made tuner appears to be superior to the Apex's Thomson one. It pulled in all the channels the Apex did, plus some weaker ones that the Apex wasn't able to get a lock on.

The signal-strength readout is implemented differently on each box. Both have a graphical display. The Apex adds a numerical indicator, whereas the Insignia emits a beep that increases in rate as the signal improves. I prefer the numerical readout, but I can see the advantages of an audible gauge.

Video

Picture quality on the Insignia is a step down from the Apex's S-Video in terms of sharpness and definition. The Insignia's picture isn't bad -- it handily beats analog any day -- but when tuned to a channel with a strong signal, the Apex through S-Video looks sharper and richer. The Insignia's picture looks best through the composite video output, although colors look less washed-out through the RF output.

The Insignia remembers zoom settings on a per-channel basis; the Apex does not, applying the current zoom setting to all channels until the user changes it.

The Apex has an overscan problem that cuts off noticeable portions of the picture in zoom mode on some (most?) 4:3 TVs. The Insignia does not appear to have this problem.

Audio

The Insignia has a menu option to switch between mono and stereo output, although the stereo only seems to be implemented through the RCA jacks. I didn't detect any audio differences between the RF and RCA outputs on the Apex.

User Interface

Comparing episode guide implementations, I see no clear winner. The Insignia's Simple Guide is aptly named: it shows now/next program info (title and times) for each channel, permitting you to scroll to see info for other channels. The Apex shows up to three days of program listings, including episode descriptions, but only for the current channel. (Note that the Insignia's guide shows no listings for channels you have not watched recently.)

Menu and channel/guide information are significantly easier to read on the Insignia. Ditto for closed captions -- the Apex's captions were too small to use, even when set to the largest font.

Remote controls: It's a close call. The Insignia's remote can power the TV on and off, and it has a numeric keypad layout that I prefer. It also manages on a single AAA battery instead of the two that the Apex requires.

However, accessing favorite channels on the Insignia is not as convenient as on the Apex. The Insignia's "FAV" button selects the next channel in your Favorites and brings up an onscreen Favorite Channel list that you can scroll through using the arrow buttons. The Apex has dedicated FAV+ and FAV- buttons towards the bottom of the remote, where they can be easily accessed with the thumb.

Also, when I tried to use my universal remote (the economical Sony RM-VL600), none of the built-in manufacturer codes worked with the Insignia, so I had to "teach" it all the buttons individually from the Insignia's remote. The Apex responded to a code for Hughes satellite boxes, although several buttons were not mapped and had to be learned.

The Insignia has channel up and down buttons on the box in addition to the power button, while the Apex has only a power button.

The Insignia takes a bit less time to power on and off than the Apex.

The Insignia has a prominent LED indicator on the front of the box that lights blue when powered on and red when in sleep mode. It flashes whenever a remote command is received. The Apex is more understated, with a small lighted switch that is green when on and red when off.

Connectivity

In the Apex's favor are its S-Video output and Smart Antenna controller. The S-Video connection makes a small but tangible difference in picture quality, as noted above. I didn't get to use the Smart Antenna function.

Cables: The Apex's included RF and composite video cables are more substantial than the Insignia's, but not by much -- and in my case, the Apex's composite video cable didn't work. The Insignia's cables are lightweight offerings of bottom-of-the-barrel quality.

Both boxes have analog pass-through. I wasn't able to detect any differences in how well analog signals were preserved by the boxes.

Power Consumption & Heat Emission

The Insignia easily gets the nod here. It is Energy Star-approved, using just 3.9 watts when in operation and 0.5 W in sleep mode, and emits very little heat when in use. It has vents on top of the box in addition to on the bottom and sides. The Apex is not Energy Star-approved, lacks a top vent, and gets hot to the touch when in use.
post #40 of 52
Nice write-up.

I've been wanting to get my hands on an -APT, but my local BB hasn't had any available the last couple of times I've been in.

Station reception is my top priority and having RF stereo option is wanted. Looks like I'll be contacting my local BB tomorrow for availability. Too bad they're in MD where they'll tax my coupon.

I've played with a Venturer, Apex-DT-250, and a DigitalStream 9950. I too like the Apex. The Apex delivers stereo through both RF & RCA.
post #41 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonPerson View Post

I have heard that the APEX unit does not allow for accurate adjustment of the sound, and the remote will not control the TV at the same time? Where as the newest Zenith, Insignia, LG (May release with pass through), do allow for that.

Can anyone confirm that?

My brother just got the Apex box but hasn't hooked it up yet; will report what I hear when he does.

The Zenith/Insignia remote will indeed control the tv, and was easy to setup for that. I also like that the Z/I remotes have some dedicated buttons that allow you to make a few changes (aspect ratio, for instance) without having to go to the menu.
post #42 of 52
A couple of things I've found while using the DT-250 & the Insignia -APT:
  1. Both boxes pass the analog signal unmodified (even stereo/SAP audio), when you turn them off, but the Insignia passes the analog signal even when you unplug the power cord.
  2. There appears to be some sort of audio dimming on the Insignia box. I don't know if this has to do with my location to the transmitters or not (2-edge @ 70 miles).
  3. The Insignia "Signal Meter" timeout's too quickly compared to the APEX (stays until released).
post #43 of 52
Nice write up by daleac and I basically agree with all except on PQ. Here's my attempt:

I'll compare the Apex DT-250 to 2 other CECBs I own, mostly my CM-7000 which I side by sided to the Apex and my Zenith DTT-901 in the basement.

Reception-CM able to pick up my weakest station at a steady 70%(similar to the Zenith) while the Apex was 20-50% and broke up badly. Other locals were 100% on my CM (and Zenith) while 70-80% on the Apex.

S-video-The main reason(IMO) for getting the Apex. CM was clearer and less dot crawl than the Apex. If I had to guess I'd say the Apex was on par with the Zenith composite for PQ(remember boxes were in different locations). Neither as good as the CM.

Guide:The Apex is also touted as having a better guide than the Zenith. While it does go out 12 hrs compared to the next/now of the Zenith, I really didn't like its operation. You could still only see next/now on the screen and you need to arrow left and right to see more. The CM has a much better guide than both.

Aspect ratio:Zenith has the edge here. It allows individual channel adjustments that stick. Both other boxes are global for all type of that channel, HD or SD. Between the CM and Apex I'd give a slight edge to the CM.

Temp. of box after leaving on for 30 min: The Zenith wins this, it remained relatively cool. The CM got warm but was OK. The Apex got even a little warmer but probably still OK.

Remote:I prefer the small skinny somewhat universal remote of the Zenith. The CM is a little big and clunky and the Apex is in between. I'd say more personal preference.

Apex negatives other than mentioned above:Over scan. I knew the box would have over scan thanks to RunchMachines(I think) review but I wanted to try it for myself. It sure does and is a deal breaker for me. Watching 11.2 (WX+) it's easy to see the large over scan which cuts off a inch or so of the bottom and top of the screen. A person can just barely see the local temps. at the bottom of the screen. Their should be 3/4" of blue below those temps on a properly adjusted TV/box. Both the CM and Zenith are much better for over scan.

Summary:While I really wanted the S-video for PQ, at least for the Apex it doesn't make any difference and considering all the other negatives of this box I don't really see a point to it. I think I'll try and see if BB will let me exchange it for another Zenith(Insignia). While the Zenith is not quite as good as my CM it is $20 less and available locally.

Note all testing done on my Panasonic 32" HD LCD TV. Watching on a old(non HD) tube set you probably won't see much of a PQ difference between any of the boxes. I was disappointed by the DXing ability of the Apex. It's similar to my older Panny TV and not in the same class as my new Sony LCD or either the CM or Zenith box. Stay away from this box if you live out state and have a weaker signal.
The Apex is not a bad box, but I'm just spoiled by the other 2.
post #44 of 52
A quick observation...... The S-Video cable that came with my Apex DT250 (I bought the converter box as an open-box item, so I don't know if it originally came with it.) was a pitiful S-Video cable. When I used it the picture quality was terrible. When I used a different S-Video cable, the PQ was much improved.
post #45 of 52
I think you got a freebe. No S-cable is supposed to come with the box. In my case anyway I used a mid quality cable for both the CM and Apex. BTW BB let me exchange the Apex for another Zenith(Insignia) even though my coupon was long expired. I was pleased.
post #46 of 52
Are you sure it wasn't a cheap, push-on RF coax cable that comes with some of these boxes, rather than a true, s-video cable?
post #47 of 52
It's definitely an S-Video cable but it's not good for anything. I'm going to toss it in the garbage can. I have learned through this ordeal that cable quality does matter.
post #48 of 52
Maybe it was returned, and somebody just threw their old, crappy one in there.

I just ordered a couple of premium, 3-wire ones from Monoprice.com. I hope they're good. Gotta be better than most of the ones I already have, anyway.
post #49 of 52
I've had good luck with Monoprice S-cables, as well as all the other cables I've ordered from them. Can't beat the price. I just wish the S-cables were a bit thinner and flexible, although I suppose they can't be thin and be decent too.
post #50 of 52
S-video is only 7 megahertz wide. You don't need some exotic cable to carry such a narrowband signal, so I just use whatever freebies I have collected over the years from VCRs or Laserdisc boxes. If you did have a bad cable, it was probably pinched & broken at some point in its life, but worked flawlessly when it was brand new.

re: Retail markup.

When I worked retail, a 200% markup was standard. For example, we'd buy Levis for around $14.44 and mark them up to $29.99 on the floor. You might that's outrageous until you stop and consider the ~$20,000 a week paid to the employees..... $5000 a month paid for the rent..... $10000 a month spent on full page newspaper ads..... and a heating or air conditioning bill for a warehouse-sized building.

The ~$15 markup on a pair of Levis (or Dockers or CECB box or whatever) is really, really tiny compared to the ~$100,000 per month expense of operating a store.
post #51 of 52
COMPARISON of APEX DT250 to ZENITH DTT901 (DIGITAL CONVERTERS)

After you see details, there may be a tendency to say Zenith is much better than Apex.
That's not the case. Both boxes produce essentially same pictures.
So here's the conclusion first:

CONCLUSION (sort of......)
Tests imply ZENITH is better than APEX, but
APEX has two major features that MAY offset most of ZENITH's advantages: >
"Smart antenna" connection, and S-video connection.

IMHO, the antenna problem is going to be big. I haven't done any "smart antenna" research, but if it will improve the ghosting/snow problems, then it is an important feature that Zenith lacks.
Also, in theory, S-video from box to TV should produce a better picture (TV must have S-vid).
(An interesting question is whether new 'digital' TV sets have "smart antenna" connections)

Noted that Consumer Reports rates both Zenith and Apex as mid-range performance.
I find it hard to believe that unknown (and cheaper) boxes outperform Zenith's 15-year history in HDTV, and Apex's presence in TV industry. If I had an extra $40 coupon, I'd try one of CR's.)

COMMENTS:
Getting a viewable 'digital' channel is totally dependent on quality of signal that you get.
ANY visible ghosting and/or more than minor snow on current analog channel will result in unacceptable 'digital' picture due to digital 'hash' (pauses, drop-outs, pixel loss, sound drop).

You will effectively lose ghosted and/or snowed channels, even thought viewable in analog.
(there is more to this when analog VHF ch. (2-13) moves to 'digital' UHF, but it's still valid).

DETAILS:
Antenna is VERY important. Tests below use: >
(1) a medium range UHF-only outside type (Yagi) and
(2) a very good high-gain outside type VHF-UHF combo (fringe area >log-periodic antenna <(edited)).
These directional antennas produce outstanding analog pictures, equal to or even better than the 'digital' pictures. A few channels have very minor ghosting, but both converters tested are equally hampered; and also, ghosting is a real-world scenario (even for 'omnidirectional' antennas).

UHF antenna is the DTV choice, because almost all DTV broadcasts are/will be in the UHF spectrum. (hi-band VHF 7 thru 13 allowed, but only one used in my area ch 11)

TESTS:
Tests done in Charlotte N. Carolina suburban area. Nine good signals are available (my antennas) TV is 10-yr old Toshiba table-top. Weather was good, at night.

(NOTE: I do not have any association to any aspect of the TV industry)

COMPARISON > APEX 250 to ZENITH 901
(for brevity, only major differencies are listed)

'DIGITAL' mode off UHF antenna >
ZENITH produced 4 more viewable 'digital' channels than APEX ( 8 Zenith vs 4 Apex > out of 9 good signals)

'DIGITAL' mode off VHF combo antenna >
ZENITH produced 2 more viewable 'digital' channels than APEX ( 9 Zenith vs 7 Apex > out of 9 good signals)

ANALOG PASS-THRU off UHF antenna >
ZENITH produced 3 more viewable analog channels than APEX ( 9 Zenith vs 6 Apex > out of 9 good signals)

(ANALOG PASS-THRU off VHF combo antenna was same for both boxes >8 of 9 good chs)

MINOR DIFERENCES > (BUT read "CONCLUSION" also)
ZENITH has wider sound control range (means less resort to TV remote to control sound)
ZENITH is considerably cooler (vents on top of box). (Both about same power consumption.)
ZENITH has better signal strength display
ZENITH remote has "TV" power-on button (tested OK <(edited))
APEX has more features (see "CONCLUSION")
post #52 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwiser View Post

Hello all...long time lurker first time poster here, but hopefully I have something to bring to the table as far as these CECBs go. ( Mods, please move this post if it would do members more good in another thread )

I ordered my coupons some time ago, with them expiring on the 27th of this month. I've been anxiously waiting the release of the free TR-40, then free DTVPal, and now $59.99 DTVPal before my coupons expire but it looks like I'm out of luck(and have grown more frustrated by the day as each new tidbit was released), so the DT250 looks like my best option.

I'm actually relieved that BB is gonna be carrying them, as it likely means I can go buy some Insignias before my coupons expire and exchange them for the DT250s... if the BB's in my area would ever carry them. It seems like eastern US states (like PA where I'm at) aren’t getting these things as quickly as western US states.

I found out something interesting today, which I'm hoping will be useful/interesting, though maybe upsetting news to those who are planning to buy the DT250, or even the Insignia. With less than 4 days until my coupons expire, I went to my local BB today to see if the Insignia's that they carried were the -APT (pass through), which they weren’t (and even if they were, the salespeople wouldn’t know, as I asked one if the boxes they had have the APT feature and the guy said "yeah, if you have an analog TV you can use these").

At any rate, there’s a Kiosk at BB that lets you look for items in the store or on BB's website, but it also serves as an employee Kiosk for them to check inventory, pricing, order status, etc. As I walked by, I noticed that some employee had left themselves logged in, and with me chomping at the bit to know if and when the DT250's were gonna come in, I quickly jumped in. (As an aside, and contrary to what I'm about to tell you, all BB employees must be required to push the Insignia boxes, as they will claim that they are the only boxes BB will be selling, whish is a lie) I was surprised at all the info that they have on there. The good news I found out was that my store has 70 on order (but not in transit yet)...and there are over 600 total on order within about 100 miles or so radius.

The disappointing news cam when I clicked on a link on the paged titled "Advanced pricing" which displayed this: while BB is selling the DT250 boxes for $59.99, the cost to them per box is $38.50. I about fell in the floor when I read that.

I'm annoyed to say the least. Anyway, knowing that they jacked up the price on the DT250, I decided to check the price of the Insignia's and again I discovered they're selling them for $59.99 but they cost the company $39.30.

I guess what bothers me the most is, aside from the lack of supply for many of the better boxes that we're looking for; we're being forced to buy these boxes if we wanna have TV after Feb 2009. I would be willing to bet that the coveted DTVPal really does cost only $39.99 as it was advertised, but they're gonna go for $59.99.

Instead of taking advantage of us by adding 50% to the price of these boxes, stores like BB would be smart to give us them in exchange for the coupon. If we could just go in, hand them our coupon, and leave with the box without paying them a dime...they would still be making $1.50 profit per box that they sell! If they were advertised as "free" with the coupon, and 1 million people bought them that would 1.5 million dollars in Best Buy's pockets.

It's very disheartening. I wish I could have printed out those screens, but the stupid printer that was attached to the kiosk kept saying it was out of paper and even though I checked it...I couldn’t do too much without attracting the attention of the BB employees that wander around. I did manage to snap a picture of the screens with my cell phone...but it's such a crappy camera phone that you can barely read it. Not like it would really do me much good anyway...I doubt the manager of the store would be willing to give me the boxes for the price of the coupon in exchange for me deleting the pictures or something.

Anyway, sorry for such a long first message...but I hope it was worth it and the information is helpful. I certainly have found these forums to be a big help over the last few months at keeping me informed on these CECB's.

Whatever the unsuspecting market is willing to pay they will get. Yes while it would be great to do an even trade for coupon. It don't keep the lights on and the doors open, oh ya can't forget all those well educated Best Buy employees screwing off all day paid
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