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6 speed DLP colour wheel

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
Does anyone know of a 1080p DLP PJ that has a 6 speed colour wheel ?

I have an Optoma HD80 PJ with a 6 speed wheel. I am using a throw of 17 ft.

I am going to have to mount the Pj on the ceiling but I will need a PJ with either Zero offset or variable lenshift. I think I would prefer a 6 speed wheel, 7 segment device as the rainbow effect is minimal with the HD80. The HD80 has worked well, being virtually floor mounted with a 17ft throw, as it has a fixed offset. Unfortunately, it will not work for me if ceiling mounted with a throw of 17ft, as the upper edge of the image would end up being half way down the wall, with the lower image shining onto a sofa.

Any ideas ?
post #2 of 15
Looks like the Marantz 11S2 for a 6X wheel speed and vertical lens shift.

Anyone else know of any other models?
post #3 of 15
I am not positive but I think I read that the Marantz 11s2, Benq 5000, Benq 20000 and Planar 8150 all have the option of 6x color wheel.
post #4 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvectord View Post

I am not positive but I think I read that the Marantz 11s2, Benq 5000, Benq 20000 and Planar 8150 all have the option of 6x color wheel.

Include the W10000 with that option.
post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
thanks guys.
post #6 of 15
benq does not do 6x (at least the w5000). It only gives you the option for 6x at 50hz. Trying to set it to 6x in the service menu screws up the picture at 60hz. Is the UK Pal? then it would be 50hz and it would be fine for you.
post #7 of 15
Could someone explain why the color wheel speed makes a difference? I hear it helps reduce RBE, but I don’t quite understand why. I also read that as the speed is increased, it does so at the expense of added wheel noise.

I have intentionally rejected going with a DLP due to all the complaints on these boards about headaches and I just don’t have the option to sit down in front of one to see if it will affect me or not. But, with the latest DLP offerings that appear to have almost as good as contrast as the king and queen JVC projectors (for contrast anyway), I am very interested in giving one a try. I think I’m one of the few (per Art's review statements) that is bothered by motion blur and from what I gather reading all these threads on AVS, DLP seams to get the nod for the being the technology to get if one wants to avoid motion blur.

Also, reading through all the BenQ threads, I do not see 5X or 6X speed. All I see is options for selecting 2, 2.5 and 3X. Does BenQ rate their projector color wheel speeds differently??

…..oh the choices!!!! I suppose having all these choices is a good thing though…..
post #8 of 15
benq

2x = 4x wheel speed
2.5x = 5x wheel speed
3x = 6x wheel speed

I can only get the benq at 2.5x (5x color wheel speed) with 60hz sources. I used my HTPC to force 50hz and it did indeed work at 3x.
post #9 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrew View Post

Could someone explain why the color wheel speed makes a difference? I hear it helps reduce RBE, but I don’t quite understand why. I also read that as the speed is increased, it does so at the expense of added wheel noise.

I will give a shot at a laymen's explanation. It is important to understand the technology to get a real grasp on it.

On a 3-chip DLP machine there is 1 chip that handles displaying the red image, one that handles the blue image, and one that handles the green image. When displaying a single frame each DLP chip projects its image at the same time, when all 3 are combined it results in the colorful image we see.

In contrast, a single chip DLP machine can only display a single color at any one time. So, first one color, say red, is displayed by the chip, then another, say the blue, is displayed, then the green. This is done sequentially, at no time is more than one single color displayed. This device relies on the human eye being able to combine these separate colors to fool our brains into seeing a single full color image. I think a lot of people don't actually realize this, if you recorded the displayed image from a single chip DLP in super slow motion and played it back frame by frame, you will never see a full color image, just images of the separate color components, i.e. there is never a time when there is a full RGB color image displayed.

But, the problem arises in that the human eye, and its ability to fool the brain, is not an exact science. Some people have different sensitivities. Some brains are not completely fooled and those are the people that see rainbows. The slower the wheel speed the longer each single color is displayed by itself before the next color is displayed. The quicker the wheel the more often each set of colors is displayed in succession per frame. So, on a 6x wheel the RGB frames are displayed 6 times for each frame in succession. If we stretch this out to give an example, say a video frame lasted for a complete second of time. With a 1x color wheel for the first 1/3 of a second you will see a red only image, then next 1/3 of a second you will see a blue only image, then the last 1/3 of a second you will see a green only image. On a 6x wheel speed you will see a red image for the first 1/18th of a second, then blue for 1/18th, then green for 1/18th, then red again for 1/18th, then blue again, etc... The faster the wheel spins the easier the brain is fooled into seeing a single full RGB image. It has been posted here before that the US Air Force has done tests and 100% of our brains are fooled at the equivalent of a 27x speed color wheel. So, even a 6x wheel will not mask the rainbows to some of us, nor will a 10x, or 15x. But, as the speed goes higher the percentage of us that see rainbows goes down.

As far as I know the technology to economically spin a color wheel at 27x speed is not in existence. The reason a color wheel is noisier at higher speeds becomes obvious when you realize how fast the wheel is actually spinning. A 1x speed wheel is spinning at 60 revolutions per second, assuming a 60 frames per second source video. This is 1,800 revolutions per minute (RPM). A 6x wheel runs actually at 5,400 RPM as they double up the color filters on the wheel, rather then having a single R, G, and B filter they put two of the filters in succession creating a wheel with RGBRGB allowing them to run double the "wheel speed" of a particular RPM. Thus, a 6x speed color wheel actually physically runs at a 3x speed while displaying 2 sets of R, G, and B frames per revolution of the wheel. A 27x speed wheel would have to run at 24,300 RPM assuming an RGBRGB filter section on it.

This is where LED lighting comes into play. LED lighting for single chip DLPs are promising because not only are they a more efficient light source, but they are able to switched on and off, so you can use an array of 3 LEDs, one R, one B, and one G, allowing them to replace a color wheel. LED's can be switched on and off at 27x speed and much higher. At 27x speed, this means the set of 3 RGB frames are displayed 27x per frame, at 60 frames per second this means the single DLP chip is displaying 4,860 frames per second, compare that to the lazy life of a 3-chip system where each chip displays just 60 frames per second. DLP mirrors can go from an on to off state in 15 microseconds, so the DLP chip theoretically can display over 66,000 fames per second if needed, well within the needs of the system.
post #10 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

benq does not do 6x (at least the w5000). It only gives you the option for 6x at 50hz. Trying to set it to 6x in the service menu screws up the picture at 60hz. Is the UK Pal? then it would be 50hz and it would be fine for you.

Yes, and actually the resistance to rainbows will be identical between the two. On a 60 fps video the 5x wheel displays 300 frames per second of RGB. On a 50 fps video the 6x wheel also displays 300 frames per second of RGB. So, while 6x sounds better then 5x the wheel is actually spinning exactly the same speed.
post #11 of 15
Thanks for taking the time to provide such a well written and easily understandable explanation. Posts like that give the forum title, AVScience meaning.
post #12 of 15
Excellent post michael. I do not see rainbows very easily so I guess I can be fooled easily as well.
post #13 of 15
In addition to only showing one color at a time, DLPs also only show one of two brightness levels at any given moment in time (full on/ full off). To approximate a brightness level in between, the mirror quickly switches on and off - since your eye has a certain 'response time' it perceives this as a brightness level somewhere between full on and full off. As you increase the color switching speed (4x, 6x, 27x, etc), you are reducing the amount of time each mirror has to switch on and off to simulate the brightness level. This sort of digital approximation of varying intensity levels is called pulse width modulation or PWM and is also used in digital switching amplifiers and other digital technologies.

So the number of times a dlp mirror switches per second = wheel speed X number of PWM switches per color segment

I am not certain at what speed DLPs hit their maximum switching speed - i.e. I am not sure if they have enough time to modulate colors properly and smoothly at higher wheel speeds - does anyone know if they could do 27x and still provide true 8 bit per color component?
post #14 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by sethk View Post

In addition to only showing one color at a time, DLPs also only show one of two brightness levels at any given moment in time (full on/ full off). To approximate a brightness level in between, the mirror quickly switches on and off - since your eye has a certain 'response time' it perceives this as a brightness level somewhere between full on and full off. As you increase the color switching speed (4x, 6x, 27x, etc), you are reducing the amount of time each mirror has to switch on and off to simulate the brightness level. This sort of digital approximation of varying intensity levels is called pulse width modulation or PWM and is also used in digital switching amplifiers and other digital technologies.

So the number of times a dlp mirror switches per second = wheel speed X number of PWM switches per color segment

I am not certain at what speed DLPs hit their maximum switching speed - i.e. I am not sure if they have enough time to modulate colors properly and smoothly at higher wheel speeds - does anyone know if they could do 27x and still provide true 8 bit per color component?

I don't think the speed of the color wheel (within reason) has any effect on the ability of the DLP chip to modulate the brightness of each pixel. This is because every 1/60th of a second each R, G, and B frame is displayed for the exact same cumulative amount of time whether the color wheel is 1x or 6x or 27x. It is just the faster the wheel the more often each frame is interleaved rather than displayed continuously.
post #15 of 15
That makes perfect sense - since there is no 'spoke time' with LED to add delays between wheel rotations.

With a color wheel though, the more color changes per second, the more time is spent when an opaque area in front of the DLP prevents modulation.
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