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Official REL Subwoofer thread... - Page 5

post #121 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novice2009 View Post

--The standard high level hook up procedure is: attach the red wire to the
amplifier's right positive speaker output terminal; attach the yellow wire to
the amplifier's left positive speaker output terminal; attach the black wire to
whichever of the amplifier's ground output terminals is convenient; plug the
Speakon connector into the Sub-Bass System's high level input.


Which option should I be using? Thanks in advance.

That is the correct setup for you.
post #122 of 732
"attach the black wire to whichever of the amplifier’s ground output terminals is convenient;"

Thanks. Grateful if you could please tell me what is the amplifier's ground output terminal?

You can see the back of my amplifier here http://us.marantz.com/Products/2518....o+AV+Receiver# (click on "Back" at the bottom).

Thanks in advance.
post #123 of 732
The black ones are the "ground" terminals. SO either use the left fronr or right front black terminal.
post #124 of 732
Thanks. That is what I have done.

1. When does the amp switch to the .1/LFE cable (I have that too connected). Is it only when the source recording is in 5.1 format? Or is it when the audio (regardless of type of format) input to the amp is via any digital connection?

2. The manual recommends a specific song to use to help in setting up. Does anyone know if there is a list of songs that are good to use to set up subs (since I don't have that specific CD)?

Thanks in advance.
post #125 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novice2009 View Post

Thanks. That is what I have done.

1. When does the amp switch to the .1/LFE cable (I have that too connected). Is it only when the source recording is in 5.1 format? Or is it when the audio (regardless of type of format) input to the amp is via any digital connection?

2. The manual recommends a specific song to use to help in setting up. Does anyone know if there is a list of songs that are good to use to set up subs (since I don't have that specific CD)?

Thanks in advance.

If you are setting up this way, your pre should be set to large+sub and you will adjust the crossover on the sub to mate with the speakers. LFE is passed via the low level cable.

Otherwise you should abandon this setup and just use the low level cable. Assessing your experience level based on your questions, this may be an easier solution for you.
post #126 of 732
On Jeff's first visit Sept 2008, he did a full calibration on my 60 Pioneer Pro-151FD Kuro and an audio calibration. At that time, he pointed out a problem I was having with the lower audio frequencies and how it could be corrected with a second subwoofer and/or additional audio equipment. Even though I still don't have a 2nd subwoofer, I did however buy a new receiver...the Pioneer SC-07. Being aware of the adjustability of my new receiver, I couldn't wait to see what adjustments Jeff would do with my new equipment during his 2nd visit.

With my highly anticipated late December 2008 purchased of the Pioneer SC-07, I knew I would be getting closer to the audio performance I desired. Even so, reaching maximum audio performance didn't come without a hitch. I first had to deal with getting the correct wiring from REL to get a proper ground for my new class "D" receiver.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post16599598

That took about two months. After that, I let the Pioneer SC-07 set up it's own audio calibration via it's MCACC program and the supplied microphone. I felt that the audio sounded "better" and the sound stage was much more "solid", however it sounded overall too bright particularly when compared to my older pre-amp amplifier combination.

Now I was ready for Jeff's arrival. When I checked his schedule, I saw he was already booked for my area. However, I did notice he was taking requests in case of cancellations so I sent him an email. It turned out he was able to fit me into his schedule so I was set.

On May 27th, 2009 9am sharp, Jeff came by for a 2nd visit to do a "simple" audio calibration...at least that was his first impression. What ended up being an issue (and taking up more time) had almost everything to do with how my REL sub bass system was hooked up. To correct most of the problems I was having, Jeff suggested an RCA to XLR (three pin) converter so I could take advantage of the SC-07s crossover (I hope Im saying that right!) And to make sure we were getting the correct connection/equipment, we called around and both ended up traveling to a local music store. I bought the converter and back to my place we went. Overall, his visit was about five hours (about two or three more hours than he anticipated).

When the work was done, I was thrown back into amazement. I've never heard my audio system sound as good as it does today. With a term I like to use, it simply sounds like showroom quality! And what's amazing, is how great it sounded in a room (my room) that is about as bad of a listening environment as it can get. Jeff would never tell me (his client) how much my listening environment sucks, however I took his well meaning descriptive words while he was listening to the differences of the much improved audio and could tell he was surprised how good it sounded in such a bad acoustical environment. We looked at each other at the same time and just started laughing! All I knew, is that the audio was smooth, (something I'm not used to hearing) balanced, detailed, open, realistic, much more depth in the low end and not colored in anyway. On top of that, I was really impressed on how Jeff was able to improve the performance of my older model REL Stadium II. Older yes, however still a fine product and it simply just needed a little help.

If you checked out the link in this story, I want you to know, that the digital cable from Sumiko is still hooked up (for proper grounding) along with the RCA to XLR converter (for the low level hookup).

The bass is now much more detailed, smooth, much more even and the bass produces the same audio levels throughout the lower audio range (there was a lot missing before he worked on it) and I hear much more liveliness in the music.

Jeff put a lot of work into my system. Like I had mentioned when I contacted him, he was simply figuring on a simple calibration, something that would normally maybe only take a couple hours. He ended up being here for five hours because of the audio problems he encountered. Jeff wanted to make sure that all the audio equipment could be brought out to perform at their maximum ability.

The improvement in audio quality was worth much more than I paid. Even though the price ended up being a little bit more than was quoted, it was more than well worth it. There were problems along the way and a lot of time spent sorting them out. HOWEVER, the improvement was as if I had just spent tens of thousands of dollars on new audio equipment. It sounds like I have new speakers, a new subwoofer and I can tell for the first time that the purchase of my new Pioneer SC-07 was well worth the money.

I'll definitely be having Jeff over again when I purchase a new subwoofer and/or center channel speaker. He even said by that time my Pioneer Pro-151FD would be ready for a quick calibration update. And that he would (at no additional cost) go ahead and do that for me. Since he had already calibrated my Kuro and is familiar with this Pioneer product, he assured me that the differences would be small and would not take long at all. It would be interesting to see if my 60 Kuro would need any adjusting at all since I rarely have time to sit and watch TV anymore.

In any case, for those sitting on the sidelines wondering if a TV and or Audio calibration is worth the money or not, I cannot say in enough words how much more value you will get from your equipment when it's set up properly. My own abilities with this hobby can get me further than mosthowever no matter how much I keep up, I simply don't have the background, education and knowledge that Jeff has. His visits to my home has given me lots of confidence in knowing when I listening to music and/or watch a movie, either by myself or with friends, the performance will be better than most have experiencedalmost anywhere!

http://www.accucalhd.com
post #127 of 732
Does US 'street' pricing differ or ever get discounted at dealers from the US retail prices listed at Sumikoaudio.com?

I'm specifically interested in an R-505.

There are no dealers where I live (Indianapolis, IN). I was pointed to MusicDirect in Chicago which has online prices which match the REL US retail prices.

Please PM me if you know of a place with discounted pricing.

thanks

--Don
post #128 of 732
I'm quite confusing that my REL 305 keep on moving even I have use blue tap to stick its legs on the floor. Any way that I can fix it on the floor?
post #129 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuball View Post

I'm quite confusing that my REL 305 keep on moving even I have use blue tap to stick its legs on the floor. Any way that I can fix it on the floor?

I think that is an extra feature of REL...
post #130 of 732
Thread Starter 
You could try some of that heavy-duty velcro type stuff cut triangular shaped pieces to fit the R-Series feet. It's made by 3M and it has a heavy duty adhesive on each side. I believe 3M call it "Dual lock fastener tape."
post #131 of 732
Just setup a triple-REL theater... OMG. B2, R505, R305... Heavenly. I'd almost forgotten how good it can be...
post #132 of 732
Thread Starter 
Dave,

What I want to know is, performance wise, how would 1 Studio III compare to multiple B's? Or a couple of Stentors vs. B's, etc.
post #133 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

Just setup a triple-REL theater... OMG. B2, R505, R305... Heavenly. I'd almost forgotten how good it can be...

While they are of a similar creed, their sonical signatures do vary. That being said, wouldn't it be ideal to have three identical subs? Also making seamless integration that much easier?
post #134 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkshift View Post

Dave,

What I want to know is, performance wise, how would 1 Studio III compare to multiple B's? Or a couple of Stentors vs. B's, etc.

Always buy the bigger woofer. A Studio III will go lower and have greater fidelity than two Stentor IIIs. You also would need multiples of 2 (ie. 1, 2, 4, 8, etc.) So you couldn't a just a third, you'd go straight to 4. Still not as good as a single Studio III. In addition, multiple woofers in stereo are difficult to setup.
post #135 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

While they are of a similar creed, their sonical signatures do vary. That being said, wouldn't it be ideal to have three identical subs? Also making seamless integration that much easier?

Three identical would be ideal, but size considerations often play a big part in whether or not three woofers will fit. Also, we are still dealing with sub-40Hz bass, which has little of its own tonal character.
post #136 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkshift View Post

Then, I started thinking again and I thought that's like buying 89 octane gas. Either you're in or you're out. So, I went for the B1 and I haven't looked back.

That is a great justification but not really worth much. The decision should be based on the speakers you are mating it with and the size of the room. The larger subs will take more work to blend, but will have more output. It's a tradeoff. I chose B2 because in theory it should be easier to mate with my C1's - not to mention if I wanted a sub for its ability to move air, I would have chosen a different brand (Epik, SVS, etc). I have never heard a sub that sounds a musical as a REL! None the disappear like a REL either.
post #137 of 732
Thread Starter 
My speakers are constantly changing and I have a rather large room. For me, the B1 is more a "staple" for my room and system. I'd rather have it than a smaller brother and try to overdrive them to get the results I want at times. Right now I have a set of bookshelf speakers on stands and it blends seamlessly.
post #138 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkshift View Post

My speakers are constantly changing and I have a rather large room. For me, the B1 is more a "staple" for my room and system. I'd rather have it than a smaller brother and try to overdrive them to get the results I want at times. Right now I have a set of bookshelf speakers on stands and it blends seamlessly.

That's great you are not experiencing any problems. I am not not opposed to that idea but in my experience the smaller sub is going to blend a little more seamlessly, becoming very difficult to locate in the room. I am actually trading my REL T1 in for a B1 this week. The T1 is VERY musical - I am floored by the tunefulness and definition of this sub, but it doesn't get that low and I am getting cabinet rattle on demanding passages. It's almost like the driver and amp manhandle it but the enclosure is just not up to the task. I worry now though that I am going to lose some definition and musicality by going to the B series - the T is that good! Literally disappears in the room.
post #139 of 732
Thread Starter 
The B1 is on a whole different level that the T1. The T1 is nice, but it's nothing like a B1. You're going to love it.
post #140 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkshift View Post

The B1 is on a whole different level that the T1. The T1 is nice, but it's nothing like a B1. You're going to love it.

I meant to say a B2. Actually trading for a B2 - should still be very good though. Thanks for the experience and encouragement!
post #141 of 732
This thread is over a year old, so I'm hoping someone is still monitoring it. I've just added a REL-T2 to my system. For a receiver/tuner I'm using an Integra DTR-7.9 hooked up to Magnepan MC-1 speakers. I trust my dealer, but his explanation about how I should hook the subwoofer up was a bit confusing. REL suggests that for home theater and stereo use, the speaker should be connected to both the high level input and the .1/LFE phono interconnect.

My dealer said (using technical jargon that went about 18" over my head), to only use the .1LFE connection because if I make both connections, the maggies may become damaged, or I could cause conflicts between the Integra's and REL's crossovers. Not wanting to destroy my speakers or cause my receiver to hemmorage, I went with his suggested hookup, but I'm sitting here, puzzled about what he said and wondering if what I'm hearing is as good as it's going to get (still pretty good).

Does anyone know what he was talking about and can explain to me in a non-technical way I can understand, so I'll be able to sleep nights?

Thanks
post #142 of 732
Thread Starter 
He's just keeping you from pushing too much bass to the MC-1's to protect them.
post #143 of 732
Perfect answer... Now I can go to sleep.
post #144 of 732
I've been looking at the REL B1 as an addition to the HT system. I have no sub now. What can I expect from the REL that would not be available from comparable subs by Epik or SVS?
post #145 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post

I've been looking at the REL B1 as an addition to the HT system. I have no sub now. What can I expect from the REL that would not be available from comparable subs by Epik or SVS?

That's a great question. This past year I've owned a few subs, including a Paradigm Ultracube 12 and an Epik Phoenix. The Epik was loud (118db!) as ever and very clean, but it always drew attention to itself and that wore on me after a while. It was designed to do one thing REALLY well, and that it did with perfection - play low and move a ton of air! At the local dealer one day I decided to bring home a REL T2 just to see how it sounded in my system opposed to the Epik. The REL added a bottom end that I had never experienced before – fast, accurate articulate, musical, and amazing pitch definition. I tried it for movies and although it could not move air anything like the Epik, it still sounded fine and really held its own, just without the “kick you in the gut” impact. By no means could it compete in that regard but it brought an entirely different set of attributes to the table.

The REL fit my needs much better, so I sold the Epik a couple weeks later. Then I traded the T2 for a T1; just out of curiosity of wanting to have the additional output. I just recently upgraded to a B2, but I may keep the T1 (or T2) for my second system - they are that good! Since I listen to music allot more than I watch movies, it was important for me to have a sub that could blend seamlessly with my mains. This is possible with other subs, but you would likely have to run duals, yet a single REL can literally disappear as if you don't know it is there. The best way I can think to describe it: It forms a seamless low end blanket of bass that mates so well with the mains, it becomes impossible to locate. It never draws attention to itself or becomes tiresome like the others do (for me anyway).

The SVS, Epik, JL's will ALL move more air and possibly recreate that film "explosion" with more intensity. My Epik was loud and very clean to boot, but for music and the ability to blend in a hi-fi system - forget it. Not going to happen. It’s a trade off for sure and you are not going to find a sub that does both perfectly, as no loudspeaker is perfect.

Keep in mind my experience has only been with the T series - my B2 should be in tomorrow. I am hoping the B series will have all the great qualities of the T series but with more output and the ability to play lower, hence getting it closer to the best of all worlds. I hope I'm not disappointed because it is $1,500 more and to be frank I could have lived with the T series since it is that good! I will post my findings on that soon.
post #146 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPowered View Post

That's a great question. This past year I've owned a few subs, including a Paradigm Ultracube 12 and an Epik Phoenix. The Epik was loud (118db!) as ever and very clean, but it always drew attention to itself and that wore on me after a while. It was designed to do one thing REALLY well, and that it did with perfection - play low and move a ton of air! At the local dealer one day I decided to bring home a REL T2 just to see how it sounded in my system opposed to the Epik. The REL added a bottom end that I had never experienced before - fast, accurate articulate, musical, and amazing pitch definition. I tried it for movies and although it could not move air anything like the Epik, it still sounded fine and really held its own, just without the kick you in the gut impact. By no means could it compete in that regard but it brought an entirely different set of attributes to the table.

The REL fit my needs much better, so I sold the Epik a couple weeks later. Then I traded the T2 for a T1; just out of curiosity of wanting to have the additional output. I just recently upgraded to a B2, but I may keep the T1 (or T2) for my second system - they are that good! Since I listen to music allot more than I watch movies, it was important for me to have a sub that could blend seamlessly with my mains. This is possible with other subs, but you would likely have to run duals, yet a single REL can literally disappear as if you don't know it is there. The best way I can think to describe it: It forms a seamless low end blanket of bass that mates so well with the mains, it becomes impossible to locate. It never draws attention to itself or becomes tiresome like the others do (for me anyway).

The SVS, Epik, JL's will ALL move more air and possibly recreate that film "explosion" with more intensity. My Epik was loud and very clean to boot, but for music and the ability to blend in a hi-fi system - forget it. Not going to happen. It's a trade off for sure and you are not going to find a sub that does both perfectly, as no loudspeaker is perfect.

Keep in mind my experience has only been with the T series - my B2 should be in tomorrow. I am hoping the B series will have all the great qualities of the T series but with more output and the ability to play lower, hence getting it closer to the best of all worlds. I hope I'm not disappointed because it is $1,500 more and to be frank I could have lived with the T series since it is that good! I will post my findings on that soon.

I think you've hit it right on the head! The B2 will have more slam, another 5Hz of extension, and about 6-9dB more output, all while being more resolved and seemless.
post #147 of 732
GPowered-good write-up. I appreciate your perspective. Looking to hear more from you on the B2. Thanks for your input also, Dave Carr. Any ideas how a JL Audo F113 would compare to the B1?

I found one I could pick up for about the same as a B1 (both used but in excellent shape).
post #148 of 732
The JL is going to give you more output and extension with a lower harmonic distortion. It is also more tactile.

The whole premise behins Rels design and intent is that they are made to compliment your loudspeakers, as opposed to emphasizing one particular area. It removes phase issues making them easier to integrate in multiples. Many would argue that you would be hardpressed to find a more musical sub. Part of that may be the harmonic distortion (which has been measured by third parties) which can be very easy on the ears for many.

They can be very good woofers for HT as well, and will give you seamless sound throughout every channel (if you decided to run multiples). That isn't to say it couldn't be done with other woofers, it would just takea little more work, and SSP with decent bass management.

It all boils down to what it is that you are looking for in a subwoofer.

Also, what kind of speakers do you have?
post #149 of 732
Thread Starter 
I've run larger and less expensive subwoofers before with much more raw output than REL's, but in overall performance enjoyment, these have been my favorite. They really do augment your existing speakers and blend seamlessly. My B1 never draws attention to itself. It's as if my mains are producing all of the sound like a set of true, full-range towers. Plus, their build quality is truely top-notch. Are there cheaper, yet more brutally powerful subs on the market? Yes. I've even owned a few in the past. But my tastes have become refined as I've gotten older and I understand that nicer, more refined "stuff" tends to cost more than other things that push brute force instead of overall enjoyment and precision built quality.

A supercharged Mustang is a heck of a lot faster than a BMW M5 in a straight line. But, which would you rather have to live with day-in and day-out?
post #150 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

it would just takea little more work, and SSP with decent bass management.

The digital, equalization route vs. the purist. I say .... digital/EQing route is great for HT, but for an organic and super transparent hi fi system ... nothing in the signal path is best! That's where I have found myself drawn to in this past year, and the REL seems to feed into that philosophy well!
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