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Official REL Subwoofer thread... - Page 6

post #151 of 444
9/8/09 at 10:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkshift View Post

But my tastes have become refined as I've gotten older and I understand that nicer, more refined "stuff" tends to cost more than other things that push brute force instead of overall enjoyment and precision built quality.

A supercharged Mustang is a heck of a lot faster than a BMW M5 in a straight line. But, which would you rather have to live with day-in and day-out?

Nice analogy - and very true! If I had a dedicated HT that was going to do nothing but play movies, another brand would probably make more sense. But for an everyday system, or a music-based system, the REL is it!
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post #152 of 444
9/8/09 at 10:17pm
The build quality on it is amazing!!! I will have it hooked up tomorrow night as I asked the dealer to hold onto it overnight to give it its initial workout/break-in before I take it home. I will post impressions and pics soon.
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post #153 of 444
9/8/09 at 10:46pm
Fanaticalism, GPowered, I think I understand what you are saying. If reality fits my understanding of the REL subs performance, as you state it, a seamless integration of this component that can step up when called up to perform (HT) without being overwhelming in character at other (music) times, then this would be what I'm looking for. I thought about changing my mains but I'm going to live with them for awhile now. They're B&W 684 front; 685 rear and the Htm62 center. Some adjustment with them on the VSX-23TXH receiver and room modifications have already made a noticeable diff.
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post #154 of 444
9/9/09 at 6:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post

Fanaticalism, GPowered, I think I understand what you are saying. If reality fits my understanding of the REL subs performance, as you state it, a seamless integration of this component that can step up when called up to perform (HT) without being overwhelming in character at other (music) times, then this would be what I'm looking for. I thought about changing my mains but I'm going to live with them for awhile now. They're B&W 684 front; 685 rear and the Htm62 center. Some adjustment with them on the VSX-23TXH receiver and room modifications have already made a noticeable diff.

You got it. It's a very smart, practical and effective bass solution. A very safe card to play, and with the versatility to run true high level L/R speaker connnection for music AND lfe for movies. Some believe that's it's too polite but once I heard how fast, musical, and seamless it blends with my mains (Dynaudio Confidence 1's), I was sold. It's pretty impessive to know that a less than $1k sub can integrate very well with a $7,500 pair of monitors. That speaks volumes! And now the B2 "should" set me free from upgradeitis for quite a while (I hope).
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post #155 of 444
9/9/09 at 8:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPowered View Post

And now the B2 "should" set me free from upgradeitis for quite a while (I hope).

Hey, don't forget about the B1, the Stentor and the Studio!
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post #156 of 444
9/9/09 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkshift View Post

Hey, don't forget about the B1, the Stentor and the Studio!

All way too big for my room!
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post #157 of 444
9/9/09 at 5:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

The JL is going to give you more output and extension with a lower harmonic distortion. It is also more tactile.

The whole premise behins Rels design and intent is that they are made to compliment your loudspeakers, as opposed to emphasizing one particular area. It removes phase issues making them easier to integrate in multiples. Many would argue that you would be hardpressed to find a more musical sub. Part of that may be the harmonic distortion (which has been measured by third parties) which can be very easy on the ears for many.

They can be very good woofers for HT as well, and will give you seamless sound throughout every channel (if you decided to run multiples). That isn't to say it couldn't be done with other woofers, it would just takea little more work, and SSP with decent bass management.

It all boils down to what it is that you are looking for in a subwoofer.

Also, what kind of speakers do you have?

I'm at a loss to understand stand what you mean by higher harmonic distortion being more musical. The reason a REL is more musical is because it DOESN'T alter what you are already hearing. They have timbral and textural definition that is often overlooked by subwoofers.

Also, although I agree that the JL may have more output, I doubt that it goes lower than a comparable REL.
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post #158 of 444
9/9/09 at 5:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

I'm at a loss to understand stand what you mean by higher harmonic distortion being more musical. The reason a REL is more musical is because it DOESN'T alter what you are already hearing. They have timbral and textural definition that is often overlooked by subwoofers.

Also, although I agree that the JL may have more output, I doubt that it goes lower than a comparable REL.

I wasn't being subjective. There are third measurements by VERY respected individuals in the A/V community.

A common trend in RELs (objectively) are thier extremely high distortion levels below 40hz. Also, their "sweet spot" is between 40-60hz. They don't have much useful output above and below those points.

If I remember correctly, IIka tested a couple of them, and there is another which I just can't recall atm.

What displays as distortion in measurements, many a times can be perceived as pleasing to the ear. Which is the biggest fuss between many of the purely objective poster on AVS who dismiss anything that is subjective (I personally believe you need both in this hobby, otherwise, it would be very boring).
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post #159 of 444
9/9/09 at 7:48pm
Thread Starter 
I guess you're referring to this:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...l-r-305-a.html

Any compact subwoofer/ speaker will be more inefficient than a larger one. Any subwoofer will distort when driven beyond its design parameters. It is a compact, sealed design that will:

Perform well for what it was designed to do.
Not perform well playing signal sweeps and test tones in a parking lot with all the knobs maxed out.

I certainly wouldn't gauge every product offered by a manufacturer based upon a single test of a single model, tested in an environment that it wasn't designed for. My B1 doesn't start rolling off in my 8500cu.ft. room until 19 Hz and thanks to the crossover setup on the B series, it blends perfectly well with my mains which at the moment are just a set of bookshelf speakers on stands. Would I use a R305 in my room? No. My room is much too large and I couldn't ask any compact subwoofer from any manufacturer to perform well in that environment.
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post #160 of 444
9/9/09 at 8:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

Also, although I agree that the JL may have more output, I doubt that it goes lower than a comparable REL.

I agree with that. The REL B series are ported designs.
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post #161 of 444
9/9/09 at 8:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkshift View Post

I guess you're referring to this:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...l-r-305-a.html...
... My B1 doesn't start rolling off in my 8500cu.ft. room until 19 Hz and thanks to the crossover setup on the B series, it blends perfectly well with my mains which at the moment are just a set of bookshelf speakers on stands...

OK, so there is data that corresponds to a different REL sub than the B1. You would not expect to see similar curves corresponding to the same ranges for the B1 would you? Would one expect THD to occur at the same freq? Just asking.
And,
kwkshift-8500cu ft? That's a big room compared to my 1650 I'll be stuffing the sub into. You need two subs, no? Or maybe you posted something about that earlier-not sure.
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post #162 of 444
9/9/09 at 8:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

I wasn't being subjective. There are third measurements by VERY respected individuals in the A/V community.

When it comes to power supplies, and things of that nature, I respect measurements and find them useful. However, I have heard loudspeakers that do not appear to measure that well, yet sound great when set up correctly with the right front end. The real answer lies somewhere in the middle, and in the end the ears have to be the ultimate judge ... along with emotional content, overall long term enjoyment, etc. Does it give you that WOW factor over and over (e.g., REL).

If those needs aren't satisfied then good measurements are nothing more than bragging rights.

edit: I will admit, after reading that 305 review.... that one could find it useful, such as for the HT enthusiast trying to mate a sub with sats that extend down to around 90-100hz. The T series and 305 are designed to mate with speakers that can get lower than that. For the $, it probably is designed to do the 40-60hz region seamlessly. So you play for that seamless blend and musicality opposed to the boomers that will cover a broader range, but still will NEVER disappear like the REL.
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post #163 of 444
9/9/09 at 11:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPowered View Post

When it comes to power supplies, and things of that nature, I respect measurements and find them useful. However, I have heard loudspeakers that do not appear to measure that well, yet sound great when set up correctly with the right front end. The real answer lies somewhere in the middle, and in the end the ears have to be the ultimate judge ... along with emotional content, overall long term enjoyment, etc. Does it give you that WOW factor over and over (e.g., REL).

If those needs aren't satisfied then good measurements are nothing more than bragging rights.

edit: I will admit, after reading that 305 review.... that one could find it useful, such as for the HT enthusiast trying to mate a sub with sats that extend down to around 90-100hz. The T series and 305 are designed to mate with speakers that can get lower than that. For the $, it probably is designed to do the 40-60hz region seamlessly. So you play for that seamless blend and musicality opposed to the boomers that will cover a broader range, but still will NEVER disappear like the REL.

I just read the review in question. Although results like this are easy to achieve if you have not measured the product in question the way it is intended to be used. Case in point, RELs are designed to be crossed over very low (easily under 35Hz in most applications). If you run the crossover wide open and shoot pure sine through it you will end up with a weird measurement. It seems that the x-over and gain are somehow tied together, almost quasi-equalization. Again, I'm not an engineer so I don't know quite how all that works.

Gross distortion, above 10% THD, is easily audible. Even for the untrained ear. If thats how these woofers were performing after being properly hooked up and calibrated, I think REL wouldn't be around any longer.

I think I've said enough on the subject. In fact, I might enjoy my REL right now...

BTW, who listens to their woofers outside? (Yes, I understand that it takes away room interference.)
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post #164 of 444
9/9/09 at 11:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post

OK, so there is data that corresponds to a different REL sub than the B1. You would not expect to see similar curves corresponding to the same ranges for the B1 would you? Would one expect THD to occur at the same freq? Just asking.
And,
kwkshift-8500cu ft? That's a big room compared to my 1650 I'll be stuffing the sub into. You need two subs, no? Or maybe you posted something about that earlier-not sure.


No. They are complety different designs, (the R and the B series). The only similarities between an R305 and a B2 is the driver. Everything else is different. Just wait....you'll see.

Each family of subs in the REL lineup is completely different than the others. A T-3 is not a scaled down version of a Studio III. A T-3 is a smaller version of a T-2 and a T-1. That's it. The T family isn't related to the R series or the B series or the ST series. The R series has its 3 siblings with a certain design just as the B family does, etc.

Yes, I have a big room to fill. 2-story house with vaulted ceilings all the way up to the peak on the 2nd floor with the downstairs being a greatroom consisting of the family room, dining room and kitchen. The B1 does a great job. It's so easy with a proper set up that when I want to change out speakers, I just have to adjust the crossover settings a couple of clicks and I'm done.
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post #165 of 444
9/10/09 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

I just read the review in question. Although results like this are easy to achieve if you have not measured the product in question the way it is intended to be used. Case in point, RELs are designed to be crossed over very low (easily under 35Hz in most applications). If you run the crossover wide open and shoot pure sine through it you will end up with a weird measurement. It seems that the x-over and gain are somehow tied together, almost quasi-equalization. Again, I'm not an engineer so I don't know quite how all that works.

Gross distortion, above 10% THD, is easily audible. Even for the untrained ear. If thats how these woofers were performing after being properly hooked up and calibrated, I think REL wouldn't be around any longer.

I think I've said enough on the subject. In fact, I might enjoy my REL right now...

BTW, who listens to their woofers outside? (Yes, I understand that it takes away room interference.)

That's an excellent point. The thing I've observed about REL, is that they use really high grade electronics and parts in their designs. Now the T and R series, only so much can be done since they are budget designs. Even the B2 manual I have states (paraphrased): forget what you already know about subwoofers and open your mind up to a different way. As you stated, they are in fact designed to roll off very low and they do it well. As I am dialing in my new B2, for the first time the roll off is easily audible. I can also easily detect the differences in phase. This is a sign of top grade electronics in this sub. I may piss some people off by saying this, but the electronics in this sub easily make my previous Epik and all other subs I've used look like childs play. This sub is built like a tank and I can tell it will easily play whatever I ask of it. Don't need a parking lot face off to get confidence in what it can do.

JL is another company that uses really high quality electronics and parts. For an ID co. SVS seems to have a nice setup going on … but that's reflected in the price as it is a more pricey ID sub.
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post #166 of 444
9/10/09 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkshift View Post

I just have to adjust the crossover settings a couple of clicks and I'm done.

kwkshift - I am still fine tuning my new B2 but right now I have my crossover set at B, 5 (about 41hz). Phase is set on C as this produced a fuller sound. My speakers are Dynaudio C1's; probably get somewhere into the low 40's (maybe high 30's) in real world listening. I have not measured that yet. I think the 41hz setting is a good starting point but I am sure it is not the end all for my current room. I have been playing around between B, 3 and C, 1. That is definitely my zone. My room is about 15 x 29 opened to other rooms + vaulted ceilings.

However, at the end of Oct. I be moving to a new place and will have a dedicated small-med. size room for audio - will be approx. 13 x 10 with regular ceilings.

Where did your crossover end up and what monitors do you have? Thanks in advance.
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post #167 of 444
9/10/09 at 9:31am
Thread Starter 
I have mine set at B, 1 and I have a set of MA GS10's, right now. Over the next few weeks or so, you'll begin to narrow down the crossover setting until it sound "right" no matter what material you're listening to.
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post #168 of 444
9/10/09 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkshift View Post

I have mine set at B, 1 and I have a set of MA GS10's, right now. Over the next few weeks or so, you'll begin to narrow down the crossover setting until it sound "right" no matter what material you're listening to.


Perhaps my ears are "trained" to accept overhang because I wouldn't think the GS10 would player lower than a C1. Probably close to the same - if anything the C1 might drop 1-2 hz lower. I'll dial it down a little and see how it sounds. My dealer recommended setting B, 3.
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post #169 of 444
9/10/09 at 11:53am
Thread Starter 
Keep in mind that my room and setup isn't your room and setup. A setting of B, 3 I would imagine is close and could very well be the correct one for you. I'm sure you're in the neighborhood.
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post #170 of 444
9/11/09 at 9:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkshift View Post

Keep in mind that my room and setup isn't your room and setup. A setting of B, 3 I would imagine is close and could very well be the correct one for you. I'm sure you're in the neighborhood.

Agreed. I am still in the process of breaking this baby in. Right now it sounds very tight and controlled but I am not confident that I have the crossover point dialed in right yet. I have lowered it to B, 3 and high level volume is set around 1pm. The sub does have some serious output, especially for a "music first" design. I can tell I won't be desiring anything if I decide to use it for HT.
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post #171 of 444
9/20/09 at 4:38pm
I have an Onkyo 906 A/V Reciever no clue what class amp it has does anyone know ?

Also in the instructions for the T1 it says to use High Level and .1/lfe input at the same time with a multi speaker set-up which I have 5.1

I am confused about this because like for example when listening to music 2ch this makes pefect sense because left and right channel output only and the reciever pre-amp sub is off and sends no signal. The feed comes from left and right front channels through the high level hook up. It really seems to match the music with the front speakers very well.

Problem is when I hook up .1/lfe input while watching movies the sub is getting two feeds one from fronts and one from sub pre-amp out. I would think they conflict each other ? right please help me understand this better thanks ?

Also there is no mention in the owners manual about a high pass digital cable with call D amplifier nor did my dealer make mention to it wouldn't you think rel would notify dealers and consumers ?

Thanks
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post #172 of 444
9/21/09 at 9:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrypt View Post

If you are setting up this way, your pre should be set to large+sub and you will adjust the crossover on the sub to mate with the speakers. LFE is passed via the low level cable.

Otherwise you should abandon this setup and just use the low level cable. Assessing your experience level based on your questions, this may be an easier solution for you.

You SHOULD NOT set your processor to LARGE+SUB if you are using the hi-level connection. This will double up the L/R signal to the REL, and will not sound right. Processor should be set to LFE only for the dual REL connection to work as advertized.
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post #173 of 444
9/21/09 at 9:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfectsound78 View Post

I have an Onkyo 906 A/V Reciever no clue what class amp it has does anyone know ?

Also in the instructions for the T1 it says to use High Level and .1/lfe input at the same time with a multi speaker set-up which I have 5.1

I am confused about this because like for example when listening to music 2ch this makes pefect sense because left and right channel output only and the reciever pre-amp sub is off and sends no signal. The feed comes from left and right front channels through the high level hook up. It really seems to match the music with the front speakers very well.

Problem is when I hook up .1/lfe input while watching movies the sub is getting two feeds one from fronts and one from sub pre-amp out. I would think they conflict each other ? right please help me understand this better thanks ?

Also there is no mention in the owners manual about a high pass digital cable with call D amplifier nor did my dealer make mention to it wouldn't you think rel would notify dealers and consumers ?

Thanks

Onkyo does not yet use class D in their AVR designs.

You should use both connections. The REL inputs are similar to a mic mixer, so it blends both inputs without degredation.
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post #174 of 444
9/24/09 at 9:33am
I'm thinking of replacing my again Sunfire sub with a REL R305. I heard one at a local audio store and it simply sounded fantastic. However, I want to understand a bit more about how I might set this up to integrate with the rest with my system. My preamp is a Denon AVP-A1HDCI. My speakers are all KEF (mains are 205/2s, center is a 202/2c). The Denon provides several sub output options as well as Audyssey. If this sub didn't recommend using the Neutrik connection, I simply would plug my sub cable into the low level input. The Denon would take care of everything. However, should I also try and use the Neutrik connection as described in the manual? Would be great for two channel listening (although I have bass management options in the Denon to set this up to route things to the sub). However, for multi-channel, I will want full LFE/bass management (and equilization via Audyssey). Any thoughts? How much "better" is the high level connection. Thanks. SJ
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post #175 of 444
9/24/09 at 7:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post

I'm thinking of replacing my again Sunfire sub with a REL R305. I heard one at a local audio store and it simply sounded fantastic. However, I want to understand a bit more about how I might set this up to integrate with the rest with my system. My preamp is a Denon AVP-A1HDCI. My speakers are all KEF (mains are 205/2s, center is a 202/2c). The Denon provides several sub output options as well as Audyssey. If this sub didn't recommend using the Neutrik connection, I simply would plug my sub cable into the low level input. The Denon would take care of everything. However, should I also try and use the Neutrik connection as described in the manual? Would be great for two channel listening (although I have bass management options in the Denon to set this up to route things to the sub). However, for multi-channel, I will want full LFE/bass management (and equilization via Audyssey). Any thoughts? How much "better" is the high level connection. Thanks. SJ

The high level connection is audibly better than the low level, and allows for a level of integration that is unachievable with other connections. I'd recommend setting it up manually with the Audyssey off and subwoofer output set to LFE-only. Then rerun the Audyssey setup. Using both hi- and low- level connections you'll get the best of both worlds.
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post #176 of 444
9/26/09 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Carr View Post

Ok. I thought ity was about time that I weighted in on the "Class D Controversy".

First and foremost, NO DAMAGE WILL OCCUR IF YOU DO NOT USE THE "DIGITAL" CABLE WITH A CLASS D AMP. I just won't sound right, or won't work at all. Case in point, Sony Digital Direct Drive amps won't work at all without the special cable. But, Pioneer Elite/B&O IcePower equipped receivers work without any special cables. Some Class D amps will produce a garbled output from the woofer. To my knowledge, not a single amp or woofer has failed that can be directly linked to the REL hookup. If you have your REL hookup up now and its output seems normal, then you are OK.

The Digital REL cable is not just a standard REL cable with an RCA for ground. It actually has a set of specially selected capacitors to isolate the ground.

I spoke with Kendra and the 'up in smoke' comment was just a joke. Obviously, it was not taken that way.

Also, on a related subject, Class D amps are not necessarily digital. Also, most are not differentially balanced. The description given earlier is not accurate and should not be used to determine what kind of amp you have.

AND, the 'balanced' hookup on B-series HAS ABSOULUTELY NO BEARING ON CLASS D AMPS. It was designed for systems with 2 RELS in stereo using differentially balanced mono-block amps, so that the RELS can operate in a push-pull fashion just like the amps. I've tried this hookup a couple of times, and still prefered the standard hookup anyway.

Dave
I have a setup of VA speakers being driven by a Rotel 1550 amp and I am using a Pioneer Elite 94TXH receiver as a preamp.

I have ordered a REL B2 to replace my present subwoofer. Unfortunately before I had read about these problems with the hi level hookup and Class D amps.

Since the Rotel will require the special cable, I wonder if I can leave my setup as it is and use the left and right speaker outputs from my Pioneer receiver to connect the high level connection to the REL just using the standard cable that comes with the REL instead of ordering the special digital cable?
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post #177 of 444
9/26/09 at 2:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerbob View Post

Dave
I have a setup of VA speakers being driven by a Rotel 1550 amp and I am using a Pioneer Elite 94TXH receiver as a preamp.

I have ordered a REL B2 to replace my present subwoofer. Unfortunately before I had read about these problems with the hi level hookup and Class D amps.

Since the Rotel will require the special cable, I wonder if I can leave my setup as it is and use the left and right speaker outputs from my Pioneer receiver to connect the high level connection to the REL just using the standard cable that comes with the REL instead of ordering the special digital cable?

The benefit of the hi-level connection is to get the same exact feed that the speakers are getting. I'd use the low-level/LFE connection until you get the right cable.
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post #178 of 444
9/30/09 at 10:58am
Ive got an issue with my Stentor III. Im using it with some Kef Reference 3.2's and Arcam Alpha 9 amps and its just too loud using the high level input. In a 2400 cu room with the x-over set to 30hz i can only have the high level volume set to 2 clicks (of 40) from minimum before it sounds too loud. This is on the unbalanced hi input which I think I should be using. If I swap it to the balanced hi imput I can turn it to 6 clicks from minimum, but this doesn't sound right.

Is there any way to reduce the high level sensitivity, as with only click 1,2 or 3 to play with I dont get much chance to adjust correctly? Any ideas?
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post #179 of 444
10/2/09 at 1:51pm
Recently purchased a small 2 channel system for the living room,consisting of a Marantz 8003 intergrated amp, Marantz 5003 cd player and Paradigm Studio 10 v5.From the reading I've been doing lately it seems like the REL subs are very good for music.I would like a small sealed sub to go with my other equipment.Our living room is roughly 3600 cu ft.The Marantz amp is 70w x 2,used for music only.Which REL sub would best suited for this system?Are there many finish options avaible?Our other speakers are rosenut.
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post #180 of 444
10/2/09 at 10:09pm
Thread Starter 
Do you have a budget in mind? The largest sealed sub at this time is the R-505 and they are available in Rosenut: http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_r505.htm

Those are also at the same price point of the B3, though. http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_b3.htm
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