Official REL Subwoofer thread... - Page 8

kwkshift,

Using your numbering I'd like to clarify a few things before re-calibrating.

1) Can you tell me from your experience where the dials for a) high & b) low input "usually" reside. Isn't 12 o'clock "too hot" indicating I have a problem somewhere else. To be honest there isn't much space to move the sub. It sits flush between the wall & left speaker over a foot from the back wall.

2) I am using high level & lfe and speakers are set to large. I was just experimenting with every setting so used small as well, but won't be anymore now. Thanks for the confirmation. One less thing to worry about.

3) Since the sw sits flush next to the left speaker I'm sure pase 0 would be the correct setting. If I had the sw opposite the speaker setting would be 180 so as the cones move at the same direction. At least that's how I understand this. I just can't fire out why the door speakers & tweeters in car stereos fire against each other?

6) What is the advantage of lfe to subwoofer instead of lfe to both? Will this make the sw go louder and put less stain on my amp & speakers?

11) I don't think I can turn off the crossover in the amp (Will have to check) but I'm sure 80hz is "universally accepted". So if I can turn off the crossover in the amp should I do it? If I can't and I leave it at 80hz what "should" the crossover on the sw be in theory. Say without powering on the sub I tell you I have 80hz on the amp what wpuld the suggested hz be for the sw crossover and why?

Sorry for repeating the same questions over & over but it's hard for a non audiophile to properly setup this sub if you don't know what you're looking for. (I've found using the manual to setup the sub was too subjective for my liking, I prefer to start for some already tested values and move on to tuning by ear)

1) I will measure the room/seating position and get back to you.

3) I run the wizard using both settings and wizard says 0 degrees. Using 180 degrees the wizard compensated by over 3dbs if I remember correctly so this is definately sorted.

6) OK. LFE set only to SW from now on.

11) I've checked and I can't turn off the crossover in the processor. I can select values raging from 40-200hz. I believe both crossovers should the exactly the same? I set my processor to 60hz and the sw to C5=60hz. I watched two movies and it sounds better. The boominess is gone and it is kinder to music.

When I was running the wizard I noticed the following:
The high level input dial from min to max position has no effect on the wizards results but I can clearly hear the two front speakers when playing the test tones sound with alot more bass (as the sw is playing alongside them). Why hasn't rel provided additional inputs for all the other speakers? The high level input makes sense to me for 2ch content only. In the manual it states I should buy another sw for the center channel and another one for the rear channels. They can't be serious?

So with the lfe set to one click after 12 o'clock the wizard selected +1db for the sw. I left it at that and dialed in the high level input to match the lfe dial. I will bring the radioshack meter next time and run some tests.

I'm slowly getting there. I know it's easy for you to setup using your ears and the high level input only but I trust the wizard and meter as my ears can't be trusted (not experienced enough).

I should be most grateful if a kind soul on here could look at my set up and tell me if I'm on the right track.

I have a Denon AVR-4306 Surround Receiver and a Rel 505. My two front speakers are B&W CM1s which probably require upgrading but will have to do for now providing I don't over drive them I guess. Until now I have connected to the R-505 by the single cable from the Denon to the .1 LFE Input on the Rel. The results have been okay but certainly nothing to write home about. The Rel manual informs me that "High-level connection using the Neutrik Speakon connector is always the first choice" so, doing what I am told I have now added that connection to my system. Now I find myself in deep water with regard to correctly setting the controls in my amp.

I understand I must change my fronts to large but I'm a little unclear about my other settings. I realise I must find out for myself by experimentation but I would at least like to know if I am starting out on the right track.

My fronts are currently set to crossover at 80Hz and to 'Small'. When I change to 'Large' should I make any change to the crossover setting?

LFE is currently set to 80Hz does that need to change? And should it now be set to LFE+Main?

When I just had the single cable connecting to the .LFE input on the Rel, the people at B&W said I should set the Sub to off in my channel level settings. To be frank I've never truly understood the reasoning behind that but I've set it as advised. My channel levels currently are:

FL 0.0dB
Centre +0.5dB
FR 0.0dB
SR -7.0dB
SL -6.0dB
SUB OFF

What I would like is to be given advice that sets me at least in the right area and, being a bit of a novice, the reassurance that I'm not starting off with a completely wrong set up.

Thank you.

Cholas

cholas,

I'm sure kwkshift and the other REL experts will chime in, but I'd throw in my two cents about your setup.

From my understanding, when you connect the REL to your Denon using the Speakon cable, you will want to send the full-range signal from your Denon to the REL and use the crossover setting on the REL, and not the Denon. For example, if your current speaker settings looks like:

FR/FL:80Hz
CENTER:80Hz
SR/SL:80Hz
SUB:OFF

You would want it now to be:
FR/FL: Full Range/Full Band/Large
CENTER:80Hz
SR/SL:80Hz
SUB:OFF

This way you don't have a "double crossover"- one in the Denon and another in the REL. You'll be sending the full audio signal to the REL that will then perform crossover functions.

For LFE/.1 input, I am unsure about how this is handled. With most subwoofers I've owned, connecting to the LFE/.1 input bypasses the crossover dial on the subwoofer, but I am unsure how the REL does it. You might still need the 80Hz LFE crossover on the Denon, but I'll leave that for the REL experts The way I'm seeing this is, if the LFE/.1 input DOES bypass the REL crossover dial for LFE purpose, then you would need the LFE crossover of 80Hz in your Denon like you have now.

I don't think you need to turn on LFE+MAINS...this sounds like the Double Bass function in Onkyo receivers. When you have a crossover, anything below that point is redirected from the main speakers to your subwoofer. LFE+MAINS sends the full bass signal to BOTH the speakers AND the subwoofer. I think leaving it on what you have now (LFE only?) should be adequate.

I think the B&W folks were wrong in telling you to disable the Sub when you had only the LFE/.1 cable connected. Unless I misunderstand, the only connection you had to the REL was through the Sub port on the Denon, and disabling the Sub in the Denon might have completely shut off any bass going to the REL at all?

Again, these are just my guesses based on what I've read about the REL systems, so I'll defer to the experts on this one- just thought I'd give it a shot to give you something to try. Enjoy your REL!

-Tyler

Thank you thrand1 and kwkshift for two very helpful replies. I certainly feel now that I'm getting somewhere.

kwkshift you asked:

If my memory serves I think the settings go in the usual sort of steps up to 120Hz. Should I be considering a change of setting do you think?

Cholas

Thanks for sharing. Looks like they're quite deep... I'm hoping the G1 is great!

There in not much information about these on the net. There is certainly no information on www.rel.net... ;(

Edit; The guy in the video says it comes with a 700W class A amplifier. That would be almost impossible... Guess it is class D.

Edit2; I cannot se the usual REL controls on the back. Perhaps they have moved them into the sub, controlled by IR instead? I hope it has the same flexibility as earlier REL subs.

I looked briefly in the 4306 manual, and it looks like that setting is specifically just for LFE material, meaning this crossover only affects the ".1" material on Dolby/DTS tracks etc. My Integra receiver goes up to 120Hz like your Denon does, and I suspect that this crossover is in place to redirect any material just on that LFE channel to the subwoofer.

So in this case if you set it to 80Hz, anything below 80Hz on the LFE channel of Dolby/DTS material is directed to your REL. In some cases I've heard of LFE tracks going all the way up to 120Hz (check out this Dolby PDF). On AVS, there are some different opinions I've come across. Some believe that if you set this crossover to anything below 120Hz, you are potentially discarding audio (if it is there). I think that if you believe the REL can reproduce up to 120Hz on that channel, then set it as such. Otherwise 80Hz should be adequate.

Unfortunately this might end as a "try it and see" situation, but that will help you determine what's best. If you set it on 120 and watch a movie with some good rumbles in it and the bass seems too overwhelming, back it off until it sounds to your liking.

Good luck!
-Tyler

Thank you Tyler for that advice I shall spend the weekend experimenting!

Also seeking the advice of other REL users.

I bought a REL B3 to pair with my Harbeth Compact 7s (http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/index.ph...ompact%207ES-3). I followed the setup guide and go the sub physically in the right location, the trouble I'm having is finding the optimal crossover and volume setting.

My speakers have a lower -3dB cutoff of 46hz. I set the REL crossover to 36hz and the volume gain at 1 o'clock (if your facing the back panel settings of the sub). My ears tell me it sounds good but I'm not sure if that is optimal.

What crossover/volume settings do you guys use? I'm looking for some rough guidelines to compare.

I am about to pull the trigger on a Rel B3 but I am having 2nd thoughts and considering the Rel 505 based soley on aestetics. Everything I have read and heard (including the mfg. Sumiko) says that the B3 should perform a little better for my application. Has anyone had direct experience with these or similar Rel B or R series models and help me decide if the 505 is good or close enough to the B3 and just go with the better looking product.

Since I have only seen pictures of the Rels I suppose it is possible that the B series is better looking in person than in photos, so if anyone wishes to comment on the looks of the B series I would appreciate that too. Of course we all no looks are subjective.

kwkshift,

Appreciate your response. I guess the stunning new G series (that I understand will replace the B's) is really the answer for those of us who want looks and performance.

I have the VA Beetovens, Maestro,and Hadyn's maybe the understated classic style of B's will be fine with my set-up

I don't think the G-series will replace the B, they are likely to be priced higher.

Although I read it on AVS about the fate of the B's, you might be right about the G series not being a direct replacement for the B series. Rel's lineup, price points and product positioning is confusing.Since the Gibraltars are sealed cabinets I would think that they would be more of a higher performance alternative to the R seires

Albeit, at a higher price point @ $2750 for the 10"/500watt...kinda glad I picked up the B3.

Anybody have an pictures of the insides of a REL sub?

what's a fair price to pay for a used R205? is $800 too much? it's black & mint condition

Put it on a SubDude isolation platform. It will completely eliminate any boominess or vibrations with any sub and it works great with the 305 because it is the perfect dimension. My R305 sits on one and it does not move like my Velodyne HGS 10 did previously. It looks like it was custom made for the 305.

Well I took a long arduous journey to finding an affordable Sub and while I was up at my dealer's showroom, he had a T1 hooked with a pair of B&W CM5s. I was so blown away by the system that I immediately ordered a pair of gloss black CM5s. After all that I went back an forth on which T-Series I should get. I though the T1 might be a little too much sub for me plus it was a little on the high side for my budget. I ended up ordering a T3 to go with my setup.

I do have a couple questions, maybe you experience REL users can help answer. I love the little clicks on the knobs that help for fine tuning. On the "crossover" knob it has 30 Hz min & 120Hz max. Now I count 17 clicks to the 12:00 position but I also count a total of 40 clicks. 90Hz/40clicks=2.25Hz. That is what I am using as my guide to know what frequency the crossover is set at. Right now I have it at 14 clicks or 61.5Hz. I am wondering are the "clicks" exactly even step-ups like in my calculation?

I am using the Neutrik hookup but I hated the crappy 35' long cable with steel conductors that was provided with the sub. I went to Home Depot and bought some nice 18/4 with stranded copper conductors. It was pretty easy to disassemble the connector and change out the cable. My friend came over and we did some A/B testing using the Sub out on my Parasound 2100 preamp and the Neutrik cable. I could definitely hear more control and detail with the high level connection. I was surprised at how much better it sounded.

I have some questions about this connection. Does using the Speakon hookup put any extra strain on the amp? Also I am thinking about moving to a true dual stereo sub setup by adding a second T3. If I just want one channel coming from the Sub using the Neutrik cable, can I just connect both the yellow and red conductor to the same speaker biding post? That way I can have only the left channel coming from one sub and the right channel from the other.

The more I listen to my REL, the more the sound is growing on me. I am very pleased with my purchase. This is mainly a music 2.1 setup. Any help with my questions would be much appreciate and I am glad I found this thread. Thanks!

Thank you for answer #2 & #3. I think the stereo subs will sound really sweet and I want to continue to use the Neutrik Connection.

The click position in relation to the freq. setting is does matter to me. That does not mean I am simply using a preset freq. as my crossover setting. I am doing listening tests to determine what I prefer with my reference material but I would like to know what freq. it is set at once I get it perfected. I am still tinkering with it since I have barely had it a week.

The best thing about the clicks is that if you find the perfect setting and for whatever reason the knobs get turned, you can use the clicks to get it back to the exact spot you had it set to before. They are just really nice to have when dialing in the sub settings.

Has anyone here with a 2ch setup tried using the high level and LFE inputs together like is stated in the manual for surround setups? I did notice when I was comparing the two the the LFE output from my preamp seemed the hit the lowest notes a little deeper. The difference was very slight and the high level connection sounded superior in so many other ways. I did not really hear anything negative with the LFE, it just lacked the detail & control that the high level connection has. That is why I was thinking about combining them to get the benefit of both.

All you are doing is bypassing one portion of the bass management in your AVR for HT purposes by running your speakers LARGE. Typically when you set your speakers to small you are redirecting all frequencies below the filter from your mains to your subs.

If you set your speakers to LARGE and use the LFE connection (with the SpeakOn) you are basically doubling the bass as both the sub and speakers are receiving the same signals.

If you are saying that the LFE connection was digging deeper (as in more extension) than SpeakOn, I can only say that there is a possibility that you may be imagining the difference.

First of all, I do not have this REL connected to an AVR or HT so everything you stated in that post does not apply to my setup at all. Also I do not need an explanation on how bass management/speaker setup works in a HT system but thanks anyway. I have a 5.1 HT setup in another room of my house and do all configurations myself, no Auto setup.

Suggesting I am imagining what I am hearing is really a convenient and arrogant reply. You were not here listening to my A/B test so I do not put much stock in how my system sounds to you from the chair behind your computer. Thanks.

I do welcome helpful responses though and I am new to REL Sub-Bass Systems. I thought I was clear in my previous posts but the system where my REL is connected is "a music 2.1 setup". What I was wondering was if "anyone here with a 2ch setup" has utilized both the Speakon and LFE input together. It is very possible the majority of REL owners here have never even thought to connect both inputs either to compare the sound of each individual one or to hear how they both sounded together in a 2ch setup. I just happen to be one of those A/V enthusiasts who likes to test every possible configuration myself to determine what I think is the best.

I definitely hear a difference between the two types connections. I prefer the Speakon if I had to pick only one but because of how the Speakon hooks directly to the binding posts on the amp, it leaves the low level outputs open for the more traditional sub connection to be hooked up as well. I suggest REL owners with a 2ch rig to run a cable from your low level outputs and compare them individually and then together to experience it for yourself and form your own opinion. I would be interested to hear what others opinion is.

Depending on what equipment you have, you may need a Y adapter if your only option is regular stereo pre outs. My preamp has summed mono sub outputs so it is easy for me to connect it both ways with a standard single RCA cable.