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Official Harman Kardon AVR 254 & 354 Owners Thread - Page 32

post #931 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by jehanzeb View Post

As much as I want to believe it is a Verizon FIOS Motorola DVR issue *only*, this was not the case when plugged in via HDMI to the Yamaha RX-V663 receiver I had.

Using HDMI in an Onkyo 506, HK 347, 254 and now a 354, all have some form of HDMI sync issue.

The Yamaha had zero HDMI issues for the entire 29 days I had it.

I don't know, my channel changing issues went away ass soon as I switched cable companies. The new one uses IPTV and an oddball branded receiver (ADB?). I no longer get issues changing from sd to HD and sound no longer disappears if you change too many channels too fast. I do still get a half second pause as it resynchs however. The only real issue is when you first turn on the STB it does cycle between the picture and a green screen for a couple of seconds, after that no issues.
post #932 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by bxs122 View Post


I saw mention of dislike for the always on Video scaler - my impression is if your source is 720 and you pair that for output at 720 then the 254 leaves the video signal alone. I've got my Tivo going 1080i->1080i while my Media Center is 720p->720p and my FIOS STB is 480i->720p which was by choice. The FIOS STB never looked better (I do have a stretch issue I am working out) while the Tivo HD and Media Center PC both appear to be the same as before I set all this up.

Interesting observation. I'm finding that the scaler really messes things up when the source is 1080i and the output is 1080p. I've got a Canon HF100 high def video camera that I use to capture clips of my 9 month old. When I connect the HF100 directly to the TV via the components (I don't have a mini HDMI to HDMI cable to sent a 1080p signal), the image looks fantastic. However, when I connect the HF100 via component to the AVR254, which supposedly upscales to 1080p, the image on the television looks horrible. I can best describe the image outputted by the AVR254 as one that has a very thin veil masking the true image. Anyone else have similar experiences?

Regards,
AJW
post #933 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zacrobmer View Post

I don't know, my channel changing issues went away ass soon as I switched cable companies. The new one uses IPTV and an oddball branded receiver (ADB?). I no longer get issues changing from sd to HD and sound no longer disappears if you change too many channels too fast. I do still get a half second pause as it resynchs however. The only real issue is when you first turn on the STB it does cycle between the picture and a green screen for a couple of seconds, after that no issues.

I don't doubt Verizon FIOS DVR's are part of the HDMI issue but they are not the only weak link in this HDCP sham we consumers have to deal with.

Seems like the only engineers sympathetic to consumers or smart enough to eliminate the HDMI handshake is Yamaha
post #934 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by jehanzeb View Post

I don't doubt Verizon FIOS DVR's are part of the HDMI issue but they are not the only weak link in this HDCP sham we consumers have to deal with.

Seems like the only engineers sympathetic to consumers or smart enough to eliminate the HDMI handshake is Yamaha


Oh I aggree, HDMI is a total mess. It adds the compatibility factor to AV, that before was really found only PC components. My 254, motorola 2614 and LG 50pg60, may not have a single handshake issue, but throw in a Pioneer 5020FD, and I suddenly have issues. Do not get me wrong I am not defending HK's complete screw up on the X54 launch. Just bashing a craptastic a/v interface.
post #935 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanjeyin View Post

Interesting observation. I'm finding that the scaler really messes things up when the source is 1080i and the output is 1080p. I've got a Canon HF100 high def video camera that I use to capture clips of my 9 month old. When I connect the HF100 directly to the TV via the components (I don't have a mini HDMI to HDMI cable to sent a 1080p signal), the image looks fantastic. However, when I connect the HF100 via component to the AVR254, which supposedly upscales to 1080p, the image on the television looks horrible. I can best describe the image outputted by the AVR254 as one that has a very thin veil masking the true image. Anyone else have similar experiences?

Regards,
AJW

Not the same problem as you per se, but when the source material is 1080i & it's output at 1080p through the 254 (HDMI in & out), I have red sparkles on many darker shades of skin (see the "Problems" thread for pics I took of this). It's fine when I switch to 720p or 1080i output.
post #936 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zacrobmer View Post

Oh I aggree, HDMI is a total mess. It adds the compatibility factor to AV, that before was really found only PC components. My 254, motorola 2614 and LG 50pg60, may not have a single handshake issue, but throw in a Pioneer 5020FD, and I suddenly have issues. Do not get me wrong I am not defending HK's complete screw up on the X54 launch. Just bashing a craptastic a/v interface.

Say thank you for all these wonderful problems and the almost complete loss of your rights over contents you paid for to your nearest corrupt legislator who, paid by you, continues to serve nobody else but corporate big money, in this case the illegal cartell called RIAA a.k.a. the Hollywood-mob...
post #937 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by jehanzeb View Post

I don't doubt Verizon FIOS DVR's are part of the HDMI issue but they are not the only weak link in this HDCP sham we consumers have to deal with.

Seems like the only engineers sympathetic to consumers or smart enough to eliminate the HDMI handshake is Yamaha



I 2nd that one on the Yamaha! The image is completely uncompromised and to me there is no noticeable delays with the handshake either.
post #938 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCaron View Post

I 2nd that one on the Yamaha! The image is completely uncompromised and to me there is no noticeable delays with the handshake either.

It's funny to read because Yamaha is the only mfr known to be deliberately clipping BTB/WTW ranges in their current product line...
post #939 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCaron View Post

I 2nd that one on the Yamaha! The image is completely uncompromised and to me there is no noticeable delays with the handshake either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

It's funny to read because Yamaha is the only mfr known to be deliberately clipping BTB/WTW ranges in their current product line...

Just what I was going to say! And as a Yamaha owner I'm hoping that a fix from HK for the clipping just might get Yamaha's attention, but it's painfully slow in coming.
post #940 of 4529
OK, quick reply. I bought a 254 and am very happy with it. Am running the latest Motorola Cable Box, PS3, Toshiba HD DVD all to a Hitachi Plasma.

The sound drop outs occur when the signal changes type. If you want you can do setup so that it is no longer dynamic. Turn dynamic off on the receiver and you can choose 7.1 for everything if you want.

My biggest complaint is really with the cable company. I can tell when sound is going to blast through the center channel because it's changed from Dolby Digital to Dolby Plus 2 Movie. The dynamic switching is just accomodating what is coming to it.

I've had no problem with the PS3 playback of any movie. And I usually play one a day. Of course it has about two dozen different PCM choices, but not sound dropping. The only sound dropping has been when the source changes type.

Picture quality is great with all HDMI. I notice a significant improvement even from sources that were previously at 1080P and quite a difference on lower level cable channels that are originally 480P.

I have a media server with about half of my CD collection on it and the music playback is great. Wonderful separation and great quality.

This is my second HK product. Upgraded to the 254 for HDMI switchability. And wouldn't have a different brand receiver.
post #941 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Just what I was going to say! And as a Yamaha owner I'm hoping that a fix from HK for the clipping just might get Yamaha's attention, but it's painfully slow in coming.

I just purchased mine and it is not clipping....
post #942 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCaron View Post

I just purchased mine and it is not clipping....

I highly doubt that unless you're the first one in the world to get a "fixed" unit...
post #943 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCaron View Post

I just purchased mine and it is not clipping....

You realize we are talking about video clipping (not passing levels below 16 or above 235), not audio clipping? If so, how did you test it?
post #944 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

Say thank you for all these wonderful problems and the almost complete loss of your rights over contents you paid for to your nearest corrupt legislator who, paid by you, continues to serve nobody else but corporate big money, in this case the illegal cartell called RIAA a.k.a. the Hollywood-mob...

For all of the headaches that we are dealing with, what exactly is this security benefit of HDMI? How long did it take before the copy protection was hacked? Its a nightmare, and any idiot can download hacked blu rays.... But the studios want to be our friend so we get digital copies (dvd quality) to use. Thanks so much for that!

I met engineers from Both Denon and Marantz and they were both sympathetic to the plight of the integrator/hobbyist who has to deal with HDMI.
post #945 of 4529
Hello,
Can someone who owns the 354 (or 254) tell me if you can apply the DTS:Neo 6 surround option to a DTS-MA 5.1 soundtrack? I am running a 7.1 setup and am interested in expanding the 5.1 track to 7.1.

My current HK receiver (the AVR235) can do this for a DTS core 5.1 track. I just wondered if its possible on a higher quality audio tracks.

Thanks.
post #946 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

You realize we are talking about video clipping (not passing levels below 16 or above 235), not audio clipping? If so, how did you test it?

I only used my DVE SD test disc and the Blu Ray version and it would appear to the naked eye that everything was fine. I would have kept the HK 354 unfortunatley I do need to have the HDMI image passed through without processing and unfortunately that machine (amongst its other issues) does not provide this option at this time.

I should mention that I kept moving the HDMI cable back and forth between the Panel and the Receiver and could still not see any issues.
post #947 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCaron View Post

I only used my DVE SD test disc and the Blu Ray version and it would appear to the naked eye that everything was fine. I would have kept the HK 354 unfortunatley I do need to have the HDMI image passed through without processing and unfortunately that machine (amongst its other issues) does not provide this option at this time.

I should mention that I kept moving the HDMI cable back and forth between the Panel and the Receiver and could still not see any issues.

Well if HK are working on a fix we will eventually see units shipped with the new firmware. But just to be sure, did you use the DVE Pluge pattern, and see all three bars on each side of central pattern (as shown below)?



You would need to increase your display brightness to see the outermost BTB bar. And by the way what was your source (DVD player or PC)?
post #948 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanjeyin View Post

Interesting observation. I'm finding that the scaler really messes things up when the source is 1080i and the output is 1080p. I've got a Canon HF100 high def video camera that I use to capture clips of my 9 month old. When I connect the HF100 directly to the TV via the components (I don't have a mini HDMI to HDMI cable to sent a 1080p signal), the image looks fantastic. However, when I connect the HF100 via component to the AVR254, which supposedly upscales to 1080p, the image on the television looks horrible. I can best describe the image outputted by the AVR254 as one that has a very thin veil masking the true image. Anyone else have similar experiences?

Regards,
AJW

My pathetic mistake!!!! The reason I got such a crappy signal was that I actually used the analogue outs on the HF100 and connected to the AVR254 using the composites, meaning that a 480i signal was being passed! Dumb dumb dumb. So I went back to my camera and connected the HF100 from its component-out to the AVR254 component-in, which made a big difference.

My bad!

Regards,
AJW
post #949 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Well if HK are working on a fix we will eventually see units shipped with the new firmware. But just to be sure, did you use the DVE Pluge pattern, and see all three bars on each side of central pattern (as shown below)?



You would need to increase your display brightness to see the outermost BTB bar. And by the way what was your source (DVD player or PC)?

Yes... and I kept bouncing back and forth between the blu ray disc version and the SD version.... I even tried the SD DVE in my XBOX 360 which is connected up directly to the TV just to see if it was slightly different from the new 2550 Samsung Blu Ray player that is connected to the receiver and they looked the same. I even threw in a DVD with the THX test pattern and I could see the drop shandow on the THX.
post #950 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCaron View Post

I 2nd that one on the Yamaha! The image is completely uncompromised and to me there is no noticeable delays with the handshake either.

I would second the newer Pioneer Elites as well. 07/05 etc.... my 94 had very little issues with HDMI. But then again my HK hasn't had too many issues either if you turn it on in the right sequence. FP-Receiver-PS3....
post #951 of 4529
I think I will hold on to my trusty 7 year old 320 for, oh, another 7 years. It's too bad HK still considers bright lights on volume knob and power button more important than quality control. I will say this about HK, for $500 (what I paid for the 320) I don't think there is a receiver made today (including HK receivers) that will sound better.
post #952 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCaron View Post

Yes... and I kept bouncing back and forth between the blu ray disc version and the SD version.... I even tried the SD DVE in my XBOX 360 which is connected up directly to the TV just to see if it was slightly different from the new 2550 Samsung Blu Ray player that is connected to the receiver and they looked the same. I even threw in a DVD with the THX test pattern and I could see the drop shandow on the THX.

That sounds pretty conclusive, if your player is outputting standard video levels through HDMI and you can see BTB.

Is there any way to check your firmware version and see if it's different from older 354's that were reported to clip? (I don't know how you would do that as I don't own this receiver).
post #953 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Is there any way to check your firmware version and see if it's different from older 354's that were reported to clip? (I don't know how you would do that as I don't own this receiver).

I think he was referring to the Yamaha RX-V663.
post #954 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by jehanzeb View Post

I think he was referring to the Yamaha RX-V663.

Yes it is the Yamaha RX-V663..... I had the HK354 and was very disappointed that it had to go back since I had been a lifelong HK customer.
post #955 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCaron View Post

Yes it is the Yamaha RX-V663..... I had the HK354 and was very disappointed that it had to go back since I had been a lifelong HK customer.

Sorry for the misinterpretation, but if the 663 is not clipping that's even more interesting! (to me, anyhow).

On the 663 can you please check the firmware version by following these instructions (I'm copying them from another post, so I can only assume they are correct):

"With the 663 off, hold the 'audio select' and 'straight' buttons while turning it on. Once it has done all the little clicking, roll the 'program' wheel backwards one click. That will show the main firmware version. Two presses of the 'tuner preset >' button will allow you to view the DSP firmware number. Use the 'system off' button to exit this mode."

(When it says "off", it may mean the main power off button, not just the normal "standby").
post #956 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCaron View Post

Yes... and I kept bouncing back and forth between the blu ray disc version and the SD version.... I even tried the SD DVE in my XBOX 360 which is connected up directly to the TV just to see if it was slightly different from the new 2550 Samsung Blu Ray player that is connected to the receiver and they looked the same. I even threw in a DVD with the THX test pattern and I could see the drop shandow on the THX.

Hmmm, thanks for the update.

Is it...


...possible that...

Yamaha is listening???

Or is it just a "bug" and only this unit accidentally does not clip BTB/WTW???

PS: kriktse, please, take it to the appropriate Yamaha thread - most importantly for the sake of all Yamaha users.
post #957 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidt1 View Post

I think I will hold on to my trusty 7 year old 320 for, oh, another 7 years. It's too bad HK still considers bright lights on volume knob and power button more important than quality control. I will say this about HK, for $500 (what I paid for the 320) I don't think there is a receiver made today (including HK receivers) that will sound better.

Well no arguments from me, as the 20/25 series in that era where very solid products. My AVR-520 had a issue with it not working if you hooked up a external amp so HK replaced it with a 525 which I had for years and never had any issues, and I still have a 225 in my office, still kicking... But remember these models didn't have the sophistication of HDMI which causes almost every AVR to mess up!!!
post #958 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garman View Post

the sophistication of HDMI

A WHAT???

You mean the loser standards of the HDMI? The lameness and the illegal HDCP standard, enforced on us without permission?

I really-really hope HDMI will die on the long run. It's an utterly crappy DVI-upgrade, a typical "committee-design",with all of its typical flaws.
post #959 of 4529
... not to mention that DVI was a poor choice to base HDMI off of to start with...

I like the single cable thing; they just need to get it right.
post #960 of 4529
Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

A WHAT???

You mean the loser standards of the HDMI? The lameness and the illegal HDCP standard, enforced on us without permission?

I really-really hope HDMI will die on the long run. It's an utterly crappy DVI-upgrade, a typical "committee-design",with all of its typical flaws.

If the HDCP is illegal, it will be successfull challenged and ruled as such.

I don't think our permission is required to include a copy protection scheme by producers. Manufacturers have been doing this since the VHS days.

Again, I'm sure if it was illegal to do so, somebody would have successfully had this reversed in a court.

HDMI does produce it's fair share of compatibility issues. Some manufacturers do seem to get it right, while others stub their toes.

The best short term solution (until these standards are banished from the land) is to buy equipment from manufacturers that seem to understand the standard and have it working well on their products.
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