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Pioneer 9G "buzz" poll (Elite and non-Elite) - Page 50

post #1471 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by lysthuset View Post

I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that Pioneer will take my problem seriously if and when I'll call them, because I don't have an option to return it to the shop I bought it from!

I don't think Pioneer will help in any way. I have read many experiences where the Pioneer engineer just stated that the buzzing would be within the limits. They have actually a FAQ entry on the austrian Pioneer website that basically says that panel buzzing is normal.

Maybe, just maybe something can be done about the fan of the mediabox. But others have tried it, without success.

If you would like to get rid of the KRP, I would try to come to some sort of deal with your dealer.. if he still isn't willing to get it back then you could sell it on ebay for a good price.
post #1472 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by k0rn View Post

I don't think Pioneer will help in any way. I have read many experiences where the Pioneer engineer just stated that the buzzing would be within the limits. They have actually a FAQ entry on the austrian Pioneer website that basically says that panel buzzing is normal.

Maybe, just maybe something can be done about the fan of the mediabox. But others have tried it, without success.

If you would like to get rid of the KRP, I would try to come to some sort of deal with your dealer.. if he still isn't willing to get it back then you could sell it on ebay for a good price.

Since the US models don't have that media box, can you guys explain it a little. Is it an external TV tuner for the panel? What exactly does it do, and more importantly, is it necessary to using the panel?

From these recent descriptions, it sounds (no pun intended) like a PITA. If you have to use it with those models, maybe you could at least stick it in a cabinet or something to alleviate the noise issue.
post #1473 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Since the US models don't have that media box, can you guys explain it a little. Is it an external TV tuner for the panel? What exactly does it do, and more importantly, is it necessary to using the panel?

From these recent descriptions, it sounds (no pun intended) like a PITA. If you have to use it with those models, maybe you could at least stick it in a cabinet or something to alleviate the noise issue.

The mediabox is basically all the electronics that would normally be located on the back of the plasma TV. So you hook up the TV to the mediabox using a single connection (Display Port cable) and then plug in your HDMI cables etc. to the mediabox. So the box is absolutely mandatory...

At least this way, the fans that are located in the TV itself don't run at all... at least on mine. Do the fans on the US model run on a regular basis?

Yeah, the mediabox is a PITA... on the other hand: it offers integrated sat tuners, card slots etc. and you have to plug just one single cable into the TV (well, two including the power plug). That makes wall-mounting much cleaner..

Just watched a BD on my KRP500 and I must say the PQ is superb. I haven't seen such perfection before... doesn't make the decision easier for me.

@lysthuset: I just discovered that even in the manual it says that all kinds of buzzing sounds can be expected that are due to the nature of the product bla bla bla... so Pioneer has their a**es coverd just fine. I see no chance argueing with them.
post #1474 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by k0rn View Post

The mediabox is basically all the electronics that would normally be located on the back of the plasma TV. So you hook up the TV to the mediabox using a single connection (Display Port cable) and then plug in your HDMI cables etc. to the mediabox. So the box is absolutely mandatory...

At least this way, the fans that are located in the TV itself don't run at all... at least on mine. Do the fans on the US model run on a regular basis?

Yeah, the mediabox is a PITA... on the other hand: it offers integrated sat tuners, card slots etc. and you have to plug just one single cable into the TV (well, two including the power plug). That makes wall-mounting much cleaner..

Just watched a BD on my KRP500 and I must say the PQ is superb. I haven't seen such perfection before... doesn't make the decision easier for me.

@lysthuset: I just discovered that even in the manual it says that all kinds of buzzing sounds can be expected that are due to the nature of the product bla bla bla... so Pioneer has their a**es coverd just fine. I see no chance argueing with them.

In PURE mode the brightness s ialmost no different in power save off and mode 2 or whatever 500A has...if you are using PURE, just turn on the power save feature and never look back.

I have a 111 and 151 they both have the same buzz quality and it is worst at sweet view spot, but slightly off this I cant hear it. I am ver y sensitive to these noises but the PQ is worth it.
post #1475 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by k0rn View Post

The mediabox is basically all the electronics that would normally be located on the back of the plasma TV. So you hook up the TV to the mediabox using a single connection (Display Port cable) and then plug in your HDMI cables etc. to the mediabox. So the box is absolutely mandatory...

At least this way, the fans that are located in the TV itself don't run at all... at least on mine. Do the fans on the US model run on a regular basis?

Yeah, the mediabox is a PITA... on the other hand: it offers integrated sat tuners, card slots etc. and you have to plug just one single cable into the TV (well, two including the power plug). That makes wall-mounting much cleaner..

Just watched a BD on my KRP500 and I must say the PQ is superb. I haven't seen such perfection before... doesn't make the decision easier for me.

@lysthuset: I just discovered that even in the manual it says that all kinds of buzzing sounds can be expected that are due to the nature of the product bla bla bla... so Pioneer has their a**es coverd just fine. I see no chance argueing with them.

Thanks for the explanation. The fans on the US models are completely silent, in my experience. I have never heard them at all. It seems that much of the heat these things generate (which can be significant) comes from the PDP panel itself, so it surprises me that those KRPs wouldn't still have fans.
post #1476 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Thanks for the explanation. The fans on the US models are completely silent, in my experience. I have never heard them at all. It seems that much of the heat these things generate (which can be significant) comes from the PDP panel itself, so it surprises me that those KRPs wouldn't still have fans.

Well they have fans (I counted two), it's just that they're not running all the time. Actually, I haven't seen them running at all even after hours of watching TV.
post #1477 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by k0rn View Post

Well they have fans (I counted two), it's just that they're not running all the time. Actually, I haven't seen them running at all even after hours of watching TV.

Oh okay. It's pretty much the same with our models then. I've never seen mine running either....ever.
post #1478 of 1626
Regarding Energy Save Mode 2: is there any data on what it actually does? I mean, by how much is brightness affected? What else is affected?

In short: how does it work?

Like I said, I coulnd't spot a difference between Off and ESP2 but maybe it takes a while to notice the differences...
post #1479 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by k0rn View Post

Regarding Energy Save Mode 2: is there any data on what it actually does? I mean, by how much is brightness affected? What else is affected?

In short: how does it work?

Like I said, I coulnd't spot a difference between Off and ESP2 but maybe it takes a while to notice the differences...

According to D-Nice, it dims the picture by roughtly 10fL, changes the gamma, and slightly modifies the color points.

I think most users cannot tell a difference between OFF and turning on the Energy Save modes. (Which is not to say that the meters used in calibration don't detect real differences.) If somebody feels they can tell a difference and it bothers them, they can always leave it off. I use Mode 2 all the time with my panels and couldn't be happier with the picture.
post #1480 of 1626
Heey kOrn!

I don't know if my blessings was heard or not (I'm not THAT religious...) or if my mind (or in this case ears) are playing tricks on me, but this is what happened yesterday....

Got home after a 12 hour long work shift. Downloaded the firmware update from Pioneer.no (Norway) website. It said june 2009 and the firmwareupdate had this number 0908-0601.
I then installed it on my KRP-500a and amazingly I felt that the tv was more quiet after this update.... ....and the mediabox didn't come and go as loud as before... It did come and go, but not to the extent from the previous days.

Once again, you have to take into account that long workshift and maybe my head (and ears) just wanted this to work ;-)

Another factor is that because it got late at night, I didn't have the chance to run the tv for many hours when checking this!

The other thing I noticed was the the power save mode didn't make any noticeable difference in the picture when switching from off to mode 1 or 2 (this I'm sure of because before the firmware update I could really see the difference in brightness when switching between these three settings).

The panel buzz did seem less noticeable and I can't wait to get home from work today and investigate this situation further - I REALLLLLLY hope I didn't dream all of this and that it actually worked!!!

I ended the night by turning on the videopattern (the white line moving from left to right to prevent burn in) and before this is the one thing that REALLY made a load buzzing sound. The last week I've been doing this when brushing my teeth and getting ready for bed (maybe 5-10 minutes) just to make sure nothing sticks to the screen and when I've come back to turn it off I've sat down on the table right in front of the screen and the buzz sound has been extremely loud. This sound also sounded more quiet yesterday than the days before....

I will keep you posted on my further investigations!

I hope you (kOrn) haven't updated your firmware so that you also have the possibility to MAYBE get a positive result from doing this....


PS. When watching the picture up close (like 30 cm away) I can see a lot of "grains" or like small sandy dots "crawling around" especially on white and bright backgrounds (for example the videopattern line moving across the screen). I guess this is normal? This is not visible from my sweetspot and I presume this is just how a plasma picuture should be because a 50" screen is not meant to be watched from less than a few meters at minimum ;-)

Andy
post #1481 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

I use Mode 2 all the time with my panels and couldn't be happier with the picture.

May I ask what the motive for using Mode 2 is in your case? Save energy costs? Or does the buzzing noise in "off"-mode bother you too? Do you too notice the difference?

For me, either ESM2 OR Drive Mode 2 makes the buzzing disappear to a point where it doesn't bother me. So, for TV (remember, we still use 50hz PAL here), Drive Mode 2 with 100hz works just fine and the noise is almost gone.

With BD, Drive Mode 2 is not available and doesn't make sense of course. So for that, I still have the option to turn on ESM2. I left ESM "off" yesterday while watching a BD and the buzz was noticable only in some scenes.. most of the time, the noise of the PS3, my fridge as well as my Tinnitus predominated the Pio buzzing.

@ Andy: I haven't upgraded the FW. I'll keep the current FW for now. I'm looking forward to your results... when you have a clear verdict, I may consider upgrading to validate your results. But it sure sounds very interesting..
post #1482 of 1626
Ok, I'll keep you posted kOrn :-)

...and what about this then:

PS. When watching the picture up close (like 30 cm away) I can see a lot of "grains" or like small sandy dots "crawling around" especially on white and bright backgrounds (for example the videopattern line moving across the screen). I guess this is normal? This is not visible from my sweetspot and I presume this is just how a plasma picuture should be because a 50" screen is not meant to be watched from less than a few meters at minimum ;-)


Is that how it should be or should white or bright backgrounds/pictures be without any "grains" like for example on a pc monitor?
post #1483 of 1626
Sorry, I wanted to give you information about that but I actually forgot.

The grain/noise in the picture that you can see from close up is perfectly normal. All Plasmas have it, it's due to how they work. Pioneer PDPs before the Kuro series had it to a larger extend than e.g. Panasonic PDPs. That made me chose a Panasonic in 2005 rather than Pioneer because I didn't like the excessive noise the models had in that time (say Pio 435..).

On the KRP 500 you can only spot if when you move 0.5 meter to the screen so it's the same as the Pannys.

LCDs work differently, that's why they don't show this "defect". But then again, LCDs are not designed for home theatre where you have some metres of viewing distance.

LCD = PC monitor, laptop.
PDP = Home Theatre.

post #1484 of 1626
Goody!!!

Thanx for a nice explanation on that subject!

As mentioned earlier, I just bought the tv on tuesday this week and because of working late every day of the week, I haven't had the time to really enjoy the tv with a nice movie yet :-(

But tonight when I get home from work, I will sit down at my "sweetspot" and put on three hours of Watchmen DC (blu-ray) and I hope the experience will prove to be a pleasant one (i.e. not a "buzzing" one...)!!!

My wife is home right now watching TV, so that means that the tv will have run for hours when I get home and I can finally do a quality check on how the experience will be during a complete movie with no noise from other sources than the tv itself... can't wait!

PS. Are you from Norway kOrn?
post #1485 of 1626
Nah, I'm from germany...
post #1486 of 1626
Ahh - okies! Well "danke schön" then for the help ;-)
post #1487 of 1626
By the way!

Found this on an english forum and I will of course try this when coming home tonight.... Did you try this kOrn???

Copy from thread at avforums.com:

Discovered something unusual the other day which might prove useful to some people.
When I first got my 500A I noticed that there was quite a strong buzz coming from the panel, most noticeably when displaying dark content on films. However, enabling PowerSave Mode 2 eradicated the buzz completely. At first I was reluctant to do so, as I had read that enabling the power save modes would reduce the vibrancy of the image and increase the PWM noise, but flicking between the modes on lots of different content, I couldnt discern any change in picture quality, so I left powersave in mode 2.

The other day though, I had the urge to play around, and while watching SkyHD on input 1, i turned power saving off and noticed there was no buzz. Intrigued, i switched to a Blu-Ray on input 3, and the buzz was there. Puzzled, i wondered why the buzz would differ so much, so i tried plugging my blu-ray player into input 4. Lo and behold, the buzz greatly reduced (not quite completely gone, but a big difference). So it would seem that the HDMI sockets can affect how much your panel buzzes. Whether this is a fault on mine, or some drawback of the internal shielding and build quality, im not sure.
post #1488 of 1626
Mhm nope.. but I've read that posting before. I don't think it has really something to do with the HDMI port. I set up my HTPC with the KRP this afternoon and it runs on Port 4. The buzz is still there..

But give it a try, just to confirm..
post #1489 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by lysthuset View Post

...and what about this then:

PS. When watching the picture up close (like 30 cm away) I can see a lot of "grains" or like small sandy dots "crawling around" especially on white and bright backgrounds (for example the videopattern line moving across the screen). I guess this is normal? This is not visible from my sweetspot and I presume this is just how a plasma picuture should be because a 50" screen is not meant to be watched from less than a few meters at minimum ;-)

Is that how it should be or should white or bright backgrounds/pictures be without any "grains" like for example on a pc monitor?

That's just what the pixels looks like when you get up close. There are three sub-pixels (blue-green-red) that make up each pixel and they work together to make the color each pixels displays. From a distance, they blend perfectly. Up close, you seem working.
post #1490 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by k0rn View Post

Mhm nope.. but I've read that posting before. I don't think it has really something to do with the HDMI port. I set up my HTPC with the KRP this afternoon and it runs on Port 4. The buzz is still there..

But give it a try, just to confirm..


OK - I will give it a try....just 45 minutes left at work now!!!
Can't wait to get home!
post #1491 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

That's just what the pixels looks like when you get up close. There are three sub-pixels (blue-green-red) that make up each pixel and they work together to make the color each pixels displays. From a distance, they blend perfectly. Up close, you seem working.

Thanks for the info!

Maybe you can answer this too...?

Is there a way to for example get into the service menu on the KRP-500A to see how many hours the tv has been "running"?
post #1492 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by k0rn View Post

May I ask what the motive for using Mode 2 is in your case? Save energy costs? Or does the buzzing noise in "off"-mode bother you too? Do you too notice the difference?

For me, either ESM2 OR Drive Mode 2 makes the buzzing disappear to a point where it doesn't bother me. So, for TV (remember, we still use 50hz PAL here), Drive Mode 2 with 100hz works just fine and the noise is almost gone.

With BD, Drive Mode 2 is not available and doesn't make sense of course. So for that, I still have the option to turn on ESM2. I left ESM "off" yesterday while watching a BD and the buzz was noticable only in some scenes.. most of the time, the noise of the PS3, my fridge as well as my Tinnitus predominated the Pio buzzing.

On my 60" panel, I must use Mode 2 to eliminate buzzing, so I had it calibrated in that mode. I have absolutely no issues with peak luminance being trimmed a bit because I find it more than bright enough already. (To me, it's kind of like saying that some mode in my amplifier trims maximum loudness by xx%....it wouldn't matter because I'd never want it that loud anyway. )

I also have a 50" panel which doesn't have annoying buzz even with Energy Save turned off. But I leave it on Mode 2 anyway, as there is a slight energy savings (every bit helps, right? ) with no negative consequences. That panel is in a smaller room (~4m x 4m) and when it runs long enough, it literally heats up the room a little! I have no idea whether it really makes a difference, but in my mind, at least, I like to think that Mode 2 might help mitigate this "space heater" effect.

I'm a little confused in your description what relationship the Energy Modes have to Drive Mode in your models. Is Drive Mode 2, which you say runs at 100Hz, the equivalent of our 72Hz mode? And are you saying that running at 100Hz actually results in lower buzz? If so, that's very interesting, as I don't recall anyone else noticing the buzz change with different refresh rates.
post #1493 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by lysthuset View Post

Thanks for the info!

Maybe you can answer this too...?

Is there a way to for example get into the service menu on the KRP-500A to see how many hours the tv has been "running"?

I doubt that you can readily get in there. I say "doubt" because I'm not as familiar with your models and it's possible this could be different for them. But with the 9G panels in North America, you cannot access the service menu using the user remote.

There is a command on the service remote that technicians use which opens the service menu, but that commend isn't in common circulation. (Some have it, as I do, but I don't have a way to share it since I don't have the actual HEX code.) Here, most who want to access that information buy ControlCAL and a special profile for that purpose. (I don't know whether that's available for your panel. )
post #1494 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

I doubt that you can readily get in there. I say "doubt" because I'm not as familiar with your models and it's possible this could be different for them. But with the 9G panels in North America, you cannot access the service menu using the user remote.

There is a command on the service remote that technicians use which opens the service menu, but that commend isn't in common circulation. (Some have it, as I do, but I don't have a way to share it since I don't have the actual HEX code.) Here, most who want to access that information buy ControlCAL and a special profile for that purpose. (I don't know whether that's available for your panel. )

Hmmm - ok, I'll just try to estimate how much I use the TV and then I guess I will reach the magic point of 200 hours some day in the future... I'm not interested in doing all the break in-stuff because I've been adviced by different "experts" just to go on about using the tv "normally" but of course avoiding all the normal situations where there could be a danger of IR or burn in more cautiosly during the first 200 hours...
post #1495 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by lysthuset View Post

Hmmm - ok, I'll just try to estimate how much I use the TV and then I guess I will reach the magic point of 200 hours some day in the future... I'm not interested in doing all the break in-stuff because I've been adviced by different "experts" just to go on about using the tv "normally" but of course avoiding all the normal situations where there could be a danger of IR or burn in more cautiosly during the first 200 hours...

That's a perfectly reasonable approach. When mine were new, I kept a little piece of paper nearby and just wrote down the approximate hours the panels was used at the end of each day, making it pretty easy to maintain an ongoing tally of the hours.
post #1496 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Is Drive Mode 2, which you say runs at 100Hz, the equivalent of our 72Hz mode? And are you saying that running at 100Hz actually results in lower buzz? If so, that's very interesting, as I don't recall anyone else noticing the buzz change with different refresh rates.

Yep, Drive Mode 2 for the european KRP-500A equals a refresh rate of 100hz (50 hz PAL x 2) and the buzz is greatly reduced using this mode.

With BD 24p input, the EU models automatically switch to 72hz too (where the buzz is very audible like in the default Drive Mode 1).

@Andy: to get the hours, you need to hook up your KRP-500 to the ethernet and access the KRP's webserver using a webbroweser. I read that on a FAQ, if you're stuck or can't find it, I'll dig it up. Let me know. There is no way to do this without the ethernet connection, just with a special service remote control. The usual tricks that applied to the 5090 model DO NOT WORK anymore.
post #1497 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by k0rn View Post

@Andy: to get the hours, you need to hook up your KRP-500 to the ethernet and access the KRP's webserver using a webbroweser. I read that on a FAQ, if you're stuck or can't find it, I'll dig it up. Let me know. There is no way to do this without the ethernet connection, just with a special service remote control. The usual tricks that applied to the 5090 model DO NOT WORK anymore.

Ah, good info, k0rn. I didn't realize those models have the web server. That makes it pretty easy.
post #1498 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by k0rn View Post

@Andy: to get the hours, you need to hook up your KRP-500 to the ethernet and access the KRP's webserver using a webbroweser. I read that on a FAQ, if you're stuck or can't find it, I'll dig it up. Let me know. There is no way to do this without the ethernet connection, just with a special service remote control. The usual tricks that applied to the 5090 model DO NOT WORK anymore.

Hi again kOrn!

I'm back at work now and I can't say I have very positive or revolutionary news from yesterday...

First of all - changing the hdmi input from 3 to 4 (ps3) didn't do any good.

After that was confirmed I got ready at my sweetspot with some crisps and a bottle of ice cold coke and started watching the movie "Watchmen Directors Cut".

This movie was of course not the best one to test for panel buzz because of it's loud actionscenes most of the time, but on the other hand it had lots of dark scenes (which is supposed to enhance the buzzing).

I can't say the buzzing annoyed me (too) much, but then again it was a "loud" movie.

After the movie was done I put on the video pattern to wash the screen. The usual loud buzzing from this test mode also seemed a bit more quiet at that moment.

Anyway, today before going to work the late shift, I had the tv on for 2-3 hours and the buzz was back! It is clearly prominent when wathching for example talk shows with no music or other noisY effects (just conversation).

And as stated before, When switching between power save mode "off" and "2" I can clearly hear a big difference where the off mode is a lot louder than mode 2 -> but still the buzz is coming and going in different tones and it is definetely not a constant buzzing in one uniform tone... Is this how you also preceive it kOrn? I have a feeling that people who DON'T seem annoyed by the buzz problem is describing their buzz like one single lower scale tone which is constant rather than a fluctuating tone.

*** Conclusion so far ***

My living room is quite small (and veeery quiet), I sit quite close to the tv and I have a solid wall just behind the sofa.... These factors makes me think that maybe my room settings is not ideal for the size (and buzz) of this tv.
Taking this into account, I guess I will just have to live with it or get another tv.

The guy I bought the tv from at a local electronics shop, is a friend of a friend and he also have the KRP-500A. I think I will ask him to drop by my apartment and give his opinion on the buzzing. If he thinks it's normal I will just have to figure out if I can live with it or not - if not I will sell the tv ;-)

If he thinks it's too loud, I will call Pioneer and ask the to check it out. If they think it's too loud, I guess they also will try to fix it. If they don't think it's too loud, I will either keep it or sell it...

So, I guess that's the end of my investigation so far :-D
post #1499 of 1626
So the buzzing was not resolved by the FW update then, right?

Just today I read about folks who swear they heard the buzz on some sets while they don't hear it on others. If this appears to be true, then there are indeed some sets that don't have the buzzing noise. maybe a few owners got lucky?

Anyways, the majority of sets seems to buzz and Pioneer even acknowledged it in the manual as well as on their FAQ. So given that there is indeed a small percentage of sets that operate quietly, the question is: how far will my dealer go to get me a quiet KRP?

Also, if Pioneer Plasma TVs ARE able to operate without making the noises described by Pioneer as "normal", why didn't Pioneer put in the extra effort to make them all quiet? Is it just bad QA? Or would it be simply too expensive?

I'm still leaning towards the theory that ALL Pioneers buzz and the difference lies in the owner's ears/living room/etc. This makes more sense to me... but I won't rule out the other theory either.

I guess I will ask my dealer kindly if we can do anything about it. maybe I'll visit his studio again and listen to some other KRPs..

Anyways.. even if all KRPs buzz, I'm pretty sure I'll keep mine. The PQ is just too good and there are some workarounds to the buzzing. And maybe I do get used to it..
post #1500 of 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by k0rn View Post

So the buzzing was not resolved by the FW update then, right?

Nope, I guess it didn't.... BUT I do think the strange coming and going sound of the mediabox is better now although I didn't focus on that yesterday...

I think your thoughts and reflections on the buzz-issue seems very realistic and I guess just like one car can have mechanical problems straight out of the factory and at the same time another one from the same manufacturer, year and model can have none, this also applies to Pioneer Kuros too ;-)

Unfortunately, I bought the tv from a friend of a friend working in an electronics store at a very "friendly" price so I don't feel like bothering him or the store with this problem... I have also thrown away all the boxes it came in so if I will bother somebody it will be Pioneer...

But I will definetely ask the sales rep to drop by and get his opinion because I now he's quite the hi-fi freak (self proclaimed).

Keep me posted on your further "investigations" if you don't mind!
Sees like we have a very similar experience with this buzz issue
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