** Official Pioneer 5020FD/6020FD Display Settings Thread** - Page 10

As promised here's a detailed post with more on the Kuro NE PC input modes. Hopefully this answers a few of the posted / PM'd questions. I'm referring mainly to the HDMI PC Input mode but there is also VGA PC input that is very similar but won't go all the way to 1080p resolution.

Menu | Setup | Option | HDMI Input | Signal Type: PC

So I'm looking at this as a sort of a Non-Elite "Pure" mode because essentially all of the built-in signal processing is turned OFF. This means all the stuff you can't turn off video modes, Noise Reductions -> OFF, Black Level -> Off , DRE, CTI, Black Level etc. all OFF


In the video modes GAME looks like the most "Pure" mode since it has the most built-in settings turned off. This mode turns even more off, basically all OFF for better or for worse.

I'm not saying or implying this mode is better than your regular A/V modes. It's probably not better for movies and film because Pure Cinema and other processing is off.

Of course if you use a PC for advanced video processing or use an External video processor this could be perfect for you and be great for movies but it is definitely different in key ways and you have the option to check it out for yourself with your own eyes rather than just assume it's "unusable", a term thrown around loosely sometimes. If you just like to tweak and adjust and miss that from an Elite then at the least here's something to play with.


Since you have direct access to set the RGB in PC mode you can set the temperature with a lower temp than Game Mode, lower the blue directly and make it as close to movie mode as you'd like.

A few more points to Consider from my research and testing so far...

CON
-Pure Cinema control is not active on this mode. According to what D-Nice posted on the 8G Kuro it appears that a 60fps signal (and I'd assume 30fps) will process just fine to 60fps on the Kuro.

-24fps on the 8G model however was said to process at a wacky 70Hz for some reason. I'm not sure if that is still the case for the 9G models however because indications are that with 9G Kuro at least for video modes Pure Cinema sometimes self engages when a 24fps film based signal is detected. Not sure about PC mode though, maybe some of you with good eyes for motion can tell. 60Hz sources according to D-Nice displayed at 60Hz on the 8G. Looks very good on Sports for instance.

-Black Level may be slightly elevated to the level of an 8G Kuro here (according to some testers). I speculate could be a result of the fact that in all the video modes except for Game Mode the "Black Level" video processing feature is on and in this mode its all off. I still see the blacks look great however (the 8G's still have a superior black level to all the Non-Kuro Plasmas) but check for yourself.

PRO

- You can create color temperatures you prefer here and save them. You have memory for separate grayscales (2) (actually more than 2, one for each hdmi input + a standard) that you don't have in the video modes. You also have access to RGB controls that for the video modes require Service Menu access (ControlCal or a Pro).

-This mode is slightly sharper in it's fine detail than any of the video modes because they are all set to Enhancer Mode 2. EM:2 looks just fine on the video modes and appears plenty sharp enough so don't take this wrong.

Video is generally not really so finely detailed that your eyes need to resolve at the pixel level. Where you can do is instead of video compare fine TEXT from a very close screen distance on this mode to any video mode you should be able to see the difference clearly. Essentially this mode is like the Elite Model's Enhancer Mode = 1

-This should be a very low input lag CRT type mode since all video processing is off. Input lag mode similar or better to Game Mode/GamePref option

-This also means the mode is very "clean" in terms of getting input signal source and not applying any additional processing. Similar in that sense to the Elite PURE mode where almost all processing is off. I notice for instance it seems to perform well on games and on animated flicks

-Unlike 8G Kuro for the 9G model the Orbiter feature is available to help protect the screen against static content

--The Contrast control is also scaled down to prevent creating too bright a setting that again could create IR/Burn-in problems. You might consider this a con if you want a super bright image but the result is you should be able to set contrast based on what looks good in your adjustments w/o much worry about burn-in. It seems it can get good bright levels along with a higher temp if you prefer but don't expect Performance Mode brightness here.

--You can easily check the fps type of your Input signal in this mode (press display button on remote)

--ColorSpace can be set manually or picked up in AUTO by the Kuro (set it only if you have to). This means it can work not only with pretty much any RGB signal but I found AUTO even detects my FiOS cable box signal correctly.

--This mode can work well with the HD consoles just as it can with PC's. You can pass an RGB signal type but I recommend setting the PS3 and/or 360 to use RGB LIMITED/Standard colorspaces if you use this mode however (Studio Reference levels).

I've seen some post that color is bad on this mode. I tested visually and used both Digital Video Essentials as well as several HD content types. Depending on the grayscale you set with your RGB controls I found it certainly not equal to my pro calibrated movie mode but easily as good or better than the other A/V modes just depending on the content.

I'd encourage people to try setting your own grayscale here at least visually with a disk like DVE and use your own eyes for preference. I came out with settings quite a bit different than what I've seen a couple other's post so it may be best check your own display unit.

In particular find it useful on some games such as bright and arcade type games and on some CGI/Animated movies where the extra sharpness seems to help a bit. I found a few movies quite watchable but would mostly prefer the Video Modes. YMMV.

You generally should choose movie because:
1) Movie Mode is capable of becoming the most accurate.

2) Using the recommended settings you can still use PureCinema: Advanced to use another A/V mode at the original temp.

Ideal would be if you could calibrate Movie and Standard which you can but you can only save one at time or at least it seems so thus far. It would be nice if someone calibrated Movie on PC:Standard and Standard on PC:Advanced or such just to verify.


Color Temp selections on the 9G Non-Elite.

You can always take the black crush out with brightness control but the issue is you have to sacrifice some of your contrast/black level. Just adjust brightness up a little and the other A/V modes improve.


There could be more but remember what has been found is mostly by trial and error from a few people (D-Nice, Turbe and a few owners). Who's going to do that work? That's why it probably won't happen.

FWIW, I sent a polite email to Pioneer NA inquiring about a firmware release to restore some of the settings. I'm sure it's not the first request they've had for this, and it will probably amount to nothing...but I figure it's worth a try for the 9g NE owners.

And hey, you never know...as any Toshiba XF550 owner can tell you, up until a few weeks ago Toshiba wouldn't even acknowledge a SM adjustment error within that line, and after some polite prodding they quietly released a firmware fix for it. After months of denying the problem even existed.

Worth a shot, right?

It sure won't hurt. How about starting a thread on this topic, a petition if you will by 9G NE owners. Not likely to change anything but worth a try.

I think it's already been tried. It probably wouldn't hurt for a few owners to email Pioneer directly though.

I forgot to mention this when I posted my results in the lag threads, but I got the same results in 'PC' mode as I did in Game mode with Game Control Pref on. I got ~48ms (around three frames) of lag where in other modes (Standard, Movie are the ones I tested) I got ~60ms (around four frames of lag).

It would be interesting to find out exactly what processing is turned off with Game Control Pref on in Game mode. Could it be the same as PC or (Elite) Pure? I have no idea.

Excellent question.

The fact that you got the same lag results on the PC input mode makes me doubt seriously that any processing from the Kuro is causing the lag. The PC input should be very much like running to a CRT, it's a dumb "pure" signal connection.

Not only that but input lag that high would generally come from some time intensive processing such as deinterlacing, maybe scaling or more likely intense video display processing. Game Pef Mode would not have any intense video processing from the Kuro since the entire point of the mode is to eliminate lag and the help tag on the display itself says input is favored over image processing. If you are using the 360 it's scaler is reported to be < 1 frame so something else must be entering in to get to 48ms.

First thing to note since you're using the GH test is that the Kuro Manual states that the Game Pref option is ignored in a few scenarios. Specifically even if setting is on it's ignored during "PC menu screens" as well as freeze frames and multi-screen viewing. Perhaps the Kuro is disengaging Game Pref option during your test menus?

Next I would wonder about your particular guitar, display unit and physical connections have you tried testing thru the VGA Input instead of HDMI?

I'd like to add that this happens to be the best mode for upscaling DVDs when you have a player that can adjust color. Using my XA2 and upscaling to 1080p I have control over a few PQ fine tuning options, since PC mode has none they help a lot.

I've actually been able to make it look more pleasing to the eye than movie mode with a few adjustments other than less pop at night because of the black level.

I'd be willing to bet with a real VP you could get very close to elite performance (8g that is)

In case anyone was looking for settings I'm still using:
R +3
G 0
B -13

Picture: 36
Brightness: 0

I'd really love someone to measure this mode but even without pro equipment it looks "accurate"

Have tested the VGA (I have a 360 VGA cable). Lag (~48ms, 3 frames) remains. The guitar (regular Rock Band 2 stratocaster, the only model with the optical sensor for the lag test as far as I know) has been tested on CRTs (0ms lag, PC LCD monitors (10-15ms lag), and my prior PDP-5070HD). I have no reason to believe the guitar is the issue.

Also tested this several months ago on dark1x's 5020 (I didn't get mine until last week), plugged straight into the panel. Same results.

As I mentioned in the Kuro lag thread, if anyone else can show less than 3 frames of lag minimum on a Kuro with any settings and an objective test, I'd love to hear about it and the details. I am finding it really hard to believe that I'm the only 9G Kuro owner with a Rock Band 2 guitar, yet I seem to be the only person who has posted results to the internet.

Other's have posted test results, even in this thread. I've researched this because I do quite a bit of work with competitive gamers. Mr2828 used the screen shot method which is used by many for objective lag tests and was standard before Guitar Hero.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post14381508

Subjective but still worth considering...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14382975



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post11885890


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post14320223

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post13668380


http://blog.arogan.com/2008/09/lcd-h...lag-tests.html


The lag you're measuring is a pretty stiff lag and would be detected by gamers easily even in subjective tests. I didn't run formal tests but I had professional gamers play on mine reporting no detectable lag and I can guarantee they use moves that simply would not work with 3 frames of lag.

Compared with other's posted results your test result are spot on for tests having the Game Pref Mode Off. You're not however the only poster to post tests with higher lag. So the question is are the low lag testers somehow mistakenly reducing lag (that would be a nice trick) or are the high lag tests somehow mistakenly adding lag or do you think the units are performing differently?

Researching the question I will say that there were a lot more possible test variables than I would have thought which were mentioned by many posters and testers that could introduce lag.

DotbyDot, signal refresh rate, interlacing etc. etc. You'll find many posts where users simply couldn't get a consistent reading on a specific display.


None of this invalidates your test results. It's simply a sampling of some results where users get lower lag, subjective and objective. As I posted to you already even the Kuro manual states that on certain screens the Game Pref Mode is ignored. This could give you a different result in a test screen vs. in an actual game ( making a screen shot test with SystemLinked consoles a better test? ).

This might also explain why subjectively sensitive gamers find no lag. Do you feel 3 frames of lag playing GH? There are enough variables so that I decided not to kill any more time cycles on the question of why certain tests were inconsistent. In fact I've already killed too many on this post

I don't get inconsistent results with the guitar. I get +/- 1ms, maybe rarely 2ms on some displays. I guarantee you if I go home right now and try it on the Kuro I will get between 47 and 49ms. I do every single time.

Do I "feel" 3 frames of lag with Rock Band? I've always played all music games with calibrated settings ever since I had a PDP, so I'm probalby not the best judge. If I accidently play without calibrating does it mess me up? Yes.

I'm not some pro Virtua Fighter player that claims to count single frames, so I'm not going to pretend that I feel three frames of lag on this set, five frames on this set, and so on.

I'll try to do some other objective tests (the only ones that are meaningful, IMO) when I get the time. Maybe this weekend.

My point with that reference was not that your results are inconsistent, clearly they are not. The point was that the user's inconsistent results with the GH test on a display showed how it could be difficult to nail down a lag factor.

Do you think the posts I referenced above, subjective and objective, which get lower lag result than your consistent test are simply all wrong? I'm simply suggesting that any serious input lag testing may not be as trivial as it appears on a given display. If it were so trivial then wouldn't you expect the same results from all posters?

Don't confuse the fact that I include both "objective" and "subjective" tests with "useless" results. In this case the "subjective" posts happen to add weight to the reliability of the "objective" posts.

To use your example for instance a Virtua Fighter (or other fighting game player) will have a move or sequence that he has practiced literally thousands of times. That move may be documented to require 1 or 2 frames of precision in order to execute successfully. When they try that move on a laggy display (on in online play for instance) it simply never executes. You may think that is a "subjective" test but I'd say it much more objective and reliable than you may realize.

Your test numbers match almost perfectly with what Mr2828 posted in this forum and thread as his numbers for the 9G Kuro in an A/V mode with Game Pref Mode OFF. He posted many months ago that it measured just under 50ms. If anything your results being almost exactly what he posted lend validity to his testing but seem to imply that for some reason Game Pref Mode is not engaging during your test. That's why I quoted you from the Kuro Manual.

It's certainly possible that every other post above is bogus and only your tests are valid but I think it's more likely that there is an unknown factor contributing to lag in some people's tests. YMMV.

Hello: I'm thinking about getting a 6020FD plasma, despite the fact that some reviewers have criticized this set's lack of any color temp controls and/or grayscale adjustments. All user reviews I have read at dealer websites don't mention this as a problem, so I was just wanting to get some of your comments. And, is stepping up to the Elite 151 all that much better even though it has more adjustment capability? Thanks!

Pq on the 6020 is amazing and is very close to movie standard.But if your one of those that would like to tweak the tv and have extra cash then go for the elite. The difference is only the adjustments. I myself got the 6020 for I couldnt justify spending the extra $1500 at the time I bought the tv for a slight adjustment that I can make to make the pq look a little bit better to d6500 on the elite. By the way it is also user preference. If you dont care for any of the adjustments in grayscale, save your money and buy yourself a nice receiver and a blu ray player. You will be amazed.

Is it still possible to adjust black and white levels, color, tint. etc on the 6020 using a test disc? Or are these adjustments not possible either? thanks! any other thoughts or experiences with the 6020 would be appreciated.

You still have the conventional color, tint, brightness, contrast, and sharpness adjustments that you can adjust anytime you want via the remote. What you're "lacking" is color temp adjustments and gamma, which can be adjusted (as well as grayscale and much more) using that ControlCal software and appropriate cable. My 5020 looks perfect and to me I don't need to adjust anything. It looks perfect on Movie Mode, and also great on Standard. But some prefer the other modes. As I understand it, these different "Modes" (among other things) give you different color temp settings.

Poor Man's ISF Day Bright Modes for the 9G Non-Elite Kuro




This a question that quite few Non-Elite owners have. Let me try to address more directly with another longer reference post. Movie Mode is fantastic but sometimes you may just want some extra brightness and punch for highly lit room or just for preference. Here's some more detail on handling that issue.

Yes it's not only possible but it's easy to set the grayscale/temperature for one of PC Mode memories. In fact I need to update my HDMI PC mode post because it's even more flexible than I indicated. The USER mode apparently saves each setting you create PER INPUT like the video Standard mode so you can create multiple grayscale/temps.

On the other I have to say no, PC modes are not really suitable settings for getting an extra bright "ISF Day" type settings. To my eyes (w/o a meter) I see that you can set the HDMI PC mode somewhat brighter than what my calibrated movie mode displays at (mine is calibrated to ~35FL)but the display attenuates the brightness of this mode so it cannot be set too bright. This is most likely to prevent IR/Burn-in scenarios with the type of static content that typical on a PC Input. In addition this mode lacks Pure Cinema so I wouldn't think of it as a complete replacement for a video mode.

Remember the Non-Elite can give you just as bright a picture as the Elite model (they are after all physically the same hardware). What the Non-Elite doesn't have is the setting flexibility to create as accurate an extra bright setting as the Elite model can do with it's special ISF calibration modes.

To clarify for others, all of the 9G Kuro's are capable of being brighter than the 8G Kuro models and are easily bright enough to meet THX recommendations for both dim/dark lit rooms and normally lit rooms. The difference is the 9G Elite model has special ISFcc calibration modes for professionals to use that can make a setting that is both extra bright and still nicely accurate (ISF Day).

If you want an "ISF Day" type of bright setting on the Non-Elite then give your best adjustment to the Performance, Standard and/or Sport A/V modes. You will end up with higher temp (which can also be helpful with high ambient lighting) and much brighter settings to choose from if your Movie Mode just doesn't cut it for you in a highly lit room or on certain content.

To improve accuracy, what I did was work with the great Kuro A/V mode adjustment screens and the DVE disk calibration patterns to adjust performance mode and standard modes with high contrast setting that still handles peak whites well ( ~contrast = 40 ) and then adjust brightness (black level) up just enough to fix some of the black crush while still keeping a nice contrast ratio. Creates a bright high contrast mode and Performance will still look different from Standard so you have at least 2 bright choices. (You can do the same for SPORT Mode).

DVE has color adjustments with filters but these are known to lack accuracy for these Plasmas. For color adjustment I eyeball Movie Mode (which is also pro calibrated in my case) as a reference to A/B against the other A/V modes. Having a clean pause function helps too. Scenes with white skin tones are esp. helpful. Adjusting Color and Tint get as close as possible to the Movie Mode. The A/V adjustment screen allows you to directly compare screen shots from one mode to the other w/o cycling thru other modes.

After getting color close to movie I may add some saturation back in because for my preferences I don't really want an A/V mode that trying to CLONE movie since I already have a great Movie Mode. I'll add a little punch back in etc. so it's a good alternative for my tastes. There's your bright A/V modes.

What the HDMI PC modes can do btw is give you extra sharp fine detail and lower temp modes with all the video processing stuff disabled. This gives you some color temps choices besides 1 accurate Movie Mode and the rest all high temp. All the Non Movie Video Modes are pretty high temp so with the HDMI PC modes you can create another 6500K type setting and some Mid-Temp settings.

Clint: thanks, but now I have to ask what IS the ControlCal software and cable you are talking about and how does one get it?

controlcal is a software that will let you adjust in the service menu to adjust the grayscale. The cable needed is rs232 and you also need a sensor and software to measure grayscale. Also you can just copy the posted settings by dnice if you dont feel like spending the extra money for the sensor and software. you can get info here controlcal.com I believe its $25 to get just the controlcal software. If this is all new to you I warn you to follow the directions very carefully for you dont want to mess up your tv.

To add to what "jayzfelon" said, many people around here know enough about it to answer questions, but they have their own forum: http://www.controlcal.com/forum/index.php . There's more details on it here: http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78. I've heard you can use a serial cable (RS232) or some kind of a USB cable. But the software is free. As I understand it, the $25 is only for a "profile" but I have yet to get any definitive answers as to whether it's mandatory to get a profile. Again, as I understand it (which is very little), the profile is only specific settings(?) but shouldn't you be able to add your own or change them yourself to you own liking?

When it's hooked up to your PC or laptop you can adjust settings from there using the CC software.


What is this "sensor"? I've never heard anything about a sensor.



Not to confuse the two, those basic adjustment settings are just the basic adjustment settings that are accessible from the user remote, which does not give you the advanced picture adjustments that ControlCal does. Or are you talking about something completely different, like the CC settings and software other than CC?

Oh yes you have, under a different name. A colormeter, but instead he called it a sensor.
You would also need something to provide the gray pattern that you would measure, such as some form of a calibration DVD. Like getgray. http://www.calibrate.tv/

Ah yes! Those I've heard of.



Sooo, do you need to measure the grayscale before using ControlCal?

It all depends on how/what you are using controlcal for. If you are doing your own calibration using a colormeter, or if you are just using one of the profile sets or you are copying/using the settings that someone else came up with.

Personally, if I used CC it would not be with a colorimeter because I can't see justifying that much money on something to use on a TV that already looks perfect to me.

But I still don't understand if measuring grayscale is a must prior to using CC by itself. And are you saying that getting the profile is not a must?
Thanks.

The profile is just software specific to the display and IS required to access the service menu. Think of it like a driver. Epson for example, has one printer dialog that it shares amongst all it's printers, but you need a specific driver for your model to connect the two. The ControlCal profile adds the correct controls for your TV. For example the Elites have different service menu controls than non-elites.

You need a spectrophotometer for a true calibration. However, if you just want to use D-Nice's offsets then all you need is the ControlCal software, a profile specific to your display, and a serial cable. The way I understand it, is that the displays are calibrated to within 5% of each other at the factory. If you were to take someones RGB values after they calibrate their display and offset your values, you can assume that you are now within roughly 5% of calibrated. The reason this works is because they are offsets rather than absolute values.

The 5020 looks good out of the box, but according to measurements the grayscale isn't flat and the temp is about 250K too low/red. Once calibrated/offset there are minor changes that have a significant impact on the image(imo), but it's completely subjective.

Ah ok, I gotcha now. Thanks for all the info and explanation.

If doing a calibration in ControlCal to universal settings as recommended by D-Nice (and widely accepted as beneficial) yields close to the technically proper grayscale and color temperature, why don't they ship from Pioneer that way? Also, couldn't this "deficiency" be corrected in a firmware update? Is Pioneer aware that Kuro owners in large numbers are going into the service menu and making adjustments? Do representatives monitor these forums? Just food for thought...any comments?

In reality the numbers aren't that large. Most people buy the TV and are happy with it. People on here want the best possible picture for their money.

Variances from unit to unit result from physcial variations during the manufacturing process. It's not a software issue as much as there are different tolerances in the physical production of electronics.

The Kuros are actually very good in this respect compared to other displays. According to many in the industry it would be much more expensive per unit to manufacture with more precision.

Then there's the fact that calibrated accurate settings would not necessarily help sell any more displays to most consumers.
The calibration and software process is actually adjusting to standards offsetting against the unit to unit variations from the factory.