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EngadgetHD: Next Vista Media Center leaked -- no DirecTV HD till 2010?

post #1 of 119
Thread Starter 
http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/05/n...-hd-till-2010/

"Engadget HD has gotten the latest on the highly anticipated update for Vista Media Center and it doesn't look good. The first release candidate made it into testers hands recently and they weren't happy to see that the most anticipated features -- support for a DirecTV HD tuner and native H.264 support -- got pushed to Windows 7. So head over to Engadget HD for more details (screen shots included)."
post #2 of 119
Thread Starter 
By the way, I am skeptical about the statement that "testers were told H.264 and DirecTV support would be delayed until Windows 7". I've been a beta-tester on a few private betas of some decently high profile software over the years - one thing that DOESN'T happen is the developers aren't telling testers about release plans or feature delays. In just about every beta, especially the private/closed ones that required an NDA signed and faxed back, you only found out about new features in a new beta version the day the beta was posted.

Maybe Microsoft is different but the fact they bother to have people sign NDA's in this case of Microsoft Media Center / DirecTV testing means they're also going to be tight-lipped about new features.

As welll, hopefully Microsoft doesn't wait until Bluray is a half obsolete format before building in native playback support for it into Vista Media Center (or Windows 7 Media Center, whatever) the way they waited for DVD to be half obsolete before building an MPEG2 decoder in.
post #3 of 119
If we can finally get DVD streaming, native Bluray support and cable card for custom built PC's I'll be happy.

Although, I know the cable card support is wishful thinking.
post #4 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by amonteiro View Post

If we can finally get DVD streaming, native Bluray support and cable card for custom built PC's I'll be happy.

Although, I know the cable card support is wishful thinking.

Yeah I researched the cable card thing for a while and all arrows kept pointing back to the fact that cable companies seem to HATE the idea of channels being tuned directly by our media PC's rather than by a set-top box they have control of. Even though ATI's had their external cablecard box to integrate with Media PC's for a while, many people still report the cable installers dragging their feet and/or outright refusing to install cablecard into ATI box citing that it's "not supported". Only the few that bother fighting them for it actually get it installed.
post #5 of 119
Wait...so if i use the ATI's external cable card box, it will work with a cable card from say Comcast, if they agree to let me use it?

I thought there was a technical limitation to this.
post #6 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by amonteiro View Post

Wait...so if i use the ATI's external cable card box, it will work with a cable card from say Comcast, if they agree to let me use it?

I thought there was a technical limitation to this.

That's how it's supposed to work but I am fuzzy on the technical details since it's been a while since I looked at it. I thought there was also some requirement that you have to buy an OEM system in order to get it (i.e. a Dell that comes bundled with it). I guess this whole business of making hardware that attaches to a media PC be OEM is because they don't want extra tech support calls.
post #7 of 119
Yeah, thats how I understand it. You need to have a cable card certified PC (ie. from dell, HP etc.) plus the cable card device. Hence everything is controlled, and unreasonably expensive.
post #8 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by odditory View Post

Yeah I researched the cable card thing for a while and all arrows kept pointing back to the fact that cable companies seem to HATE the idea of channels being tuned directly by our media PC's rather than by a set-top box they have control of. Even though ATI's had their external cablecard box to integrate with Media PC's for a while, many people still report the cable installers dragging their feet and/or outright refusing to install cablecard into ATI box citing that it's "not supported". Only the few that bother fighting them for it actually get it installed.


It's very market-centric. Comcast in Houston, TX has great support for CableCARD in Vista Media Center PCs, while Suddenlink in Montgomery, TX, doesn't.

As to this thread - unfortunately as a MS gold partner (and Paul will attest) - I am not allowed to confirm or deny anything.
post #9 of 119
I will propose this - since full Blu-ray support includes a Java component - how much fun do you think it is for MS to deal with Sun? Hypothetically speaking.
post #10 of 119
ha ha ha, I knew it.
I knew that all those features were going to be pushed to Windows 7. Else, why else would people upgrade?
post #11 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by odditory View Post

http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/05/n...-hd-till-2010/

"Engadget HD has gotten the latest on the highly anticipated update for Vista Media Center and it doesn't look good. The first release candidate made it into testers hands recently and they weren't happy to see that the most anticipated features -- support for a DirecTV HD tuner and native H.264 support -- got pushed to Windows 7. So head over to Engadget HD for more details (screen shots included)."

I guess those German language screenshots prove the rumor.
post #12 of 119
Windows playing BD out of the box is as likely to happen as Xbox 360 coming with an external BD drive, i.e. very unlikely.

Diogen.
post #13 of 119
Like I posted over at TGB, this would basically eliminate MCE out of my home in favor of a DTV STB. The promise of DTV integration kept my wife happy and complacent but this news will pretty much throw MCE out of the picture.

Once it's replaced with a STB, I'll get rid of the current MCE box. We only use laptops in my house now and the HTPC is the only desktop left in the house. From a cabling standpoint, it would actually be significantly neater.
post #14 of 119
I doubt it'll be done in 2010. I have been telling folks for almost a year that the DirecTV support for media center is basically dead. People refused to believe me even though my sources are extremely senior in that company.

The DirecTV guys only started the program as a counter to the cablecard support in VMC. Now that the market has clearly shown that product to be a massive failure, and that DirecTV is cleaning the clock of the cable companies with their own proprietary box that networks in the home, they have absolutely no incentive to make this happen. They don't need it and don't need the hassle of working with MSFT.

Maybe h.264 will get done by windows 7, and maybe it won't. I doubt windows 7 will be on time...

Either way, people should face up to the fact that MSFT is not targeting THIS market for VMC. They are not doing anything to address the areas that we care about, and so folks should move on to better solutions that are out there, SageTV, mediaportal, etc...

So stop wiating of MSFT to deliver you a solution, and join the rest of us who have been enjoying very capable HTPC's and networked PVR's for years instead of waiting on MSFT for solutions. They aren't working on them for you - this announcement proves that.
post #15 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

So stop wiating of MSFT to deliver you a solution, and join the rest of us who have been enjoying very capable HTPC's and networked PVR's for years instead of waiting on MSFT for solutions. They aren't working on them for you - this announcement proves that.

This "announcement" is at best a rumor, and I have no idea if it's true or not. The only thing I'm certain of is that it doesn't "prove" anything. Still wondering what the point was to those boring German language screenshots. I guess the idea is that some will think, "It has pictures, it must be true!" More than anything, articles such as this make me think En-gadget is on the road to becoming the En-quirer.
post #16 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by tima94930 View Post

This "announcement" is at best a rumor, and I have no idea if it's true or not. The only thing I'm certain of is that it doesn't "prove" anything. Still wondering what the point was to those boring German language screenshots. I guess the idea is that some will think, "It has pictures, it must be true!" More than anything, articles such as this make me think En-gadget is on the road to becoming the En-quirer.

From my conversations in the past year with folks at DirecTV, I certainly believe these reports. Those screenshots are not photoshopped either.

Turn out the lights, the party's over....etc.. etc...
post #17 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

Those screenshots are not photoshopped either.

Who said anything about them being photoshopped?
post #18 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post


Turn out the lights, the party's over....etc.. etc...

Meh, there's no stopping progress.
post #19 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

So stop wiating of MSFT to deliver you a solution, and join the rest of us who have been enjoying very capable HTPC's and networked PVR's for years instead of waiting on MSFT for solutions. They aren't working on them for you - this announcement proves that.

BS. I know plenty of people personally in MS's eHome group that work every day to deliver a better media center experience. They'd strongly disagree with you.
post #20 of 119
bah, double post.
post #21 of 119
OK... so we get a screen shot of the new version of Vista Media Center... from Germany? And this German beta tester is wondering why they didn't get DirecTV?

I don't get why anyone is biting on this BS.

I have no idea what is going to be released with the fiji update... and apparently, noone else does either.
post #22 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

...So stop wiating of MSFT to deliver you a solution, and join the rest of us who have been enjoying very capable HTPC's and networked PVR's for years instead of waiting on MSFT for solutions. They aren't working on them for you - this announcement proves that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisMorley View Post

BS. I know plenty of people personally in MS's eHome group that work every day to deliver a better media center experience. They'd strongly disagree with you.

Yeah, but Chris, you're on the other side of the issue from most of us. You're a VAR, an OEM, a business person. Microsoft knows how to deal with business people, their kind of people. They set up a little meet and greet, set out some coffee (latte, not drip) and pastries (the good kind, not talking donuts here), stimulate some lite banter until it's time to go to the meeting room, then have have some really smart sounding people give presentations for a couple of hours, take a break, more lite banter, some introductions, maybe lunch, handout some brochures, maybe a few more specialized sessions latter in the day, and finally some gratuitous glad-handing so everyone goes home feeling special and that they accomplished something... something other then gaining a few pounds.

But, if one of us, an individual customer, an end user, a consumer. a little person, showed up in Redmond, the only thing Microsoft could think of doing would be calling security. The fact is that's the way big companies roll. So all these people in Redmond working hard... I won't dispute that, they are... but who are they working for? The channel? OEM's? VAR's? Or their customers?

Not being able to see a tree for the forest. This has always been a problem with big institutions. There is, however, an example of a company that is significantly better at, if not listening to it's customers, then at least glad-handing them very well: Apple.

I don't think Microsoft should be more like Apple. But I do think that if they insist upon using IBM as a role model, then they should follow IBM's lead and get the hell out of the consumer space. They are not good at it, and with Ballmer at the helm I don't see it getting any better. Ballmer idolizes the IBM white shirt/black tie/above-the-crowd ethos. As a customer, that really doesn't leave a lot for me to look forward to.

At the risk of sounding tired, because it's been said so many times before, Microsoft really, REALLY, needs to split up. As long as someone in eHome group, hard working or not, knows that if things don't work out, if the new product bombs, or if it just never ships, as long as they know they can just go back to the Office group or the Server group or where ever they started, there is no incentive to excel, just a need to survive.

EDIT----------------------------------

As long as Microsoft continues listens to VAR's and OEM's, all they will ever hear is what VAR's and OEM's need to survive. Maybe, from their perspective, Microsoft should go back to the way it was before MCE2005, when buying "Media Center" meant buying a "Media Center PC." Maybe, from their perspective, Microsoft should hold back certain functionality for the channel only, to give people an incentive to buy 'professionally' built hardware. Well, that kinda thinking after, what, six years?, has gotten Media Center no where with the public at large. Just how many people actually buy systems? Please, tell us all; What sort of Media Center volume does Velocity or S1 or Maingear et al, do? Are we talking tens of thousands, thousands... hundreds? Just how many cablecard systems have been sold? What's the return rate on cablecard systems? In a world of 7 billion people, in a country of 300 million where 70 million PC's where sold last year alone, how many were specifically Media Centers, what percentage of the total was that, and why should anyone care except those directly involved?

The greatest expansion in Media Center came about as the result of the general release of MCE2005. But instead of expanding upon that, they seem to want to go backwards. Most of us here are individual consumers; tinkerers as someone else put it. We roll our own. We have no frakking need for VAR's or OEM's. We may buy a case from those guys, but never a system. Just the way it is. A few hundred here and there may feel different, but look how many people are here, and look how many are at the green button: Hundreds of thousands registered, probably several times that lurking.

Well, I am not for going backwards, it ain't gonna happen. If I have to, have to, go back to buying pre-built systems, I'm gonna go to where I get the best value for my money and deal with a company that at least gives lip service to their customers want's and needs... I'll buy an Apple.
post #23 of 119
I had multiple Beta Testers tell me the same thing, it just so happened the the person from Germany was the one willing to share screen shots. Either way, it is the same build for all the countries and none of them support h.264 which is required for DirecTV support.
post #24 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

So stop wiating of MSFT to deliver you a solution, and join the rest of us who have been enjoying very capable HTPC's and networked PVR's for years instead of waiting on MSFT for solutions. They aren't working on them for you - this announcement proves that.

I agree, but right now MS is providing the solution I want. Is it the best solution it could be? No. But it is the ONLY way to record any HD channel I want without a STB. Sure that stupid external ATI tuner (not sure why Dell or HP doesn't sell internal tuners) is kinda like a STB, but the big difference is I don't have to pay to rent it (the CC fee is less per month).

It isn't that more than TiVo's solution. TiVos seem alot cheaper until you include the service, but for a two room system using two TiVo HDs, is $1200 -- remember this is only 360GB of space. I paid $1400 for my Dell with dual CableCARD tuners (500GB of space) plus another $250 for an extender. This is a little more the first 3 years, but after that the VMC gets cheaper because of the service fees.

It is without a doubt cheaper than the two Series3 TiVos I had before which cost me almost $2k (with service) -- plus I had to rent 4 CableCARDs instead of 2.

Don't get me wrong, I want a DirecTV tuner and I think the OEM CC requirement is the dumbest thing ever. I'm just saying that for me, despite the OEM requirement, VMC is a better solution than Sage with dual HD PVRs.
post #25 of 119
Ben, my SageTV system does all that and more, for less. I have 2 DCP501's which were modified with R5000-HD's. The R5000 mod is expensive ($440 each now at nextcomm), but the total cost is less than your dual tuner cablecard system, has no STB fees, and no DRM on the cablecard recordings. Add extenders at $200 each that play all the content, including ripped DVD's, and the extenders can even play ripped BD's and HDDVD's (if you convert them to MKV's, at least for now).

I got my DCP501's for less, but you can find them easily for $120 new from smarthome. Add $440x2 for R5000 conversions, and that's $1120 for STB hardware and conversions. No fees, no DRM. It's the freedom to use the content I pay for that caused me to go the R5000 approach, and Sage supports it great.

Or you can lease STB's and have them modded, or you can by HD-DVR's and use them on STB's as well. You can choose all that with SageTV, and no DRM with any of that.

Oh, and you can record any OTA or clear QAM signal too, without worrying about a broadcast flag stopping recording.

You should look into it, as it's a better and cheaper solution and I think you'd enjoy the experience more.

And plug ins galore that do a lot more too.
post #26 of 119
Microsoft are so f-ing slow at getting updates out to things open source has had for ages.

I'm sure people here will be shouting "yeah, thanks MS, you're the greatest" in 2013 when they announce support for blu-ray, dvd streaming and a new interface.

Employ some more people and make mce something that shuts up people from apple.
post #27 of 119
Some more info HERE.
BBCHD is now working for us UK users
post #28 of 119
I listened to MikeSM about a year ago and using the same technology and software he does. I couldn't be happier with my setup; especially when I see people STILL struggling and complaining about limitations that just get in the way of having the full HTPC experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

Ben, my SageTV system does all that and more, for less. I have 2 DCP501's which were modified with R5000-HD's. The R5000 mod is expensive ($440 each now at nextcomm), but the total cost is less than your dual tuner cablecard system, has no STB fees, and no DRM on the cablecard recordings. Add extenders at $200 each that play all the content, including ripped DVD's, and the extenders can even play ripped BD's and HDDVD's (if you convert them to MKV's, at least for now).

I got my DCP501's for less, but you can find them easily for $120 new from smarthome. Add $440x2 for R5000 conversions, and that's $1120 for STB hardware and conversions. No fees, no DRM. It's the freedom to use the content I pay for that caused me to go the R5000 approach, and Sage supports it great.

Or you can lease STB's and have them modded, or you can by HD-DVR's and use them on STB's as well. You can choose all that with SageTV, and no DRM with any of that.

Oh, and you can record any OTA or clear QAM signal too, without worrying about a broadcast flag stopping recording.

You should look into it, as it's a better and cheaper solution and I think you'd enjoy the experience more.

And plug ins galore that do a lot more too.
post #29 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthony.s View Post

Some more info HERE.
BBCHD is now working for us UK users

The poster says he's using a WinTV Nova-t500, which is dvb-t. Digital Video Broadcast - Terrestrial, dvb-t, is mpeg2. He seams to be getting bbc-hd over dvb-t. Reading the postings, dvb-t is apperantly working fine, but dvb-s is still spotty, perhaps because of the ability to recieve dvb-s (mpeg2) but not dvb-s2 (can be mpeg4). Freeview BBC HD satellite is dvb-s or dvb-s2? Dvb-s is mpeg2, dvb-s2 can be mpeg2 or 4.

It's not the same as here. Not the same at all. There is nothing to say that h.264 is working, in fact, the opposite seems to true. but I'm still reading. And downloading. shhhhh!!


Anybody try the download? Can you run it in VirtualPC?

EDIT----------------------------------

Apparently, the brits they have been using a hack (similar to the HD Homerun hack for QAM) to get dvb-s in Media Center up to now:


Freesat DVB-S and mediacenter? - Nigel Barker
09-May-08 07:39:13

The only HDTV available in Media Center is in the US for Over The Air MPEG2. Most satellite HD e.g.
BBC HD is MPEG4 & thus not supported.

DVB-S is also not currently supported natively in Media Center but there are solutions from DVB-S
card manufacturers that supply fake DVB-T (Freeview) drivers so that the cards will work within
Media Center. With the right Conditional Access Module (CAM) you can even use your subscription card
to watch encrypted channels e.g. Sky. If that is your requirement then the FloppyDTV or FireDTV
devices from www.digital-everywhere.com are far & away the best choice.

For Free To Air channels the you have a wider choice of DVB-S tuner although the FloppyDTV is still
the best it is quite a bit more expensive than simple DVB-S cards.

BTW "freesat" (the brand name is all lower case) is just a repackaging of the FTA channels with a
new Electronic Programme Guide. Currently you will not be able to use this EPG or the parallel Sky
one as no DVB viewing application supports it.
--

Cheers

Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur
MCE MVP
EDIT2----------------------------------------

From the same blog:

Freesat DVB-S and mediacenter? - John Lockwood
12-May-08 05:46:55

On 9/5/08 15:14, in article

162C4878-E0E2-471F-BF74-79FD2741DFBB@microsoft.com, "BillyUK"



There is the BBC HD channel which is broadcast over DVB-S in H.264, and Lux
HD which I believe is also over DVB-S in H.264.

I believe there is also ITV HD which is over DVB-S but in H.222 (which I had
never heard of before). Apparently suitable software can can be convinced to
treat this as H.264.

While it is possible using DVB-S tuners that 'pretend' to be DVB-T tuners
(like the FireDTV mentioned by Nigel) to get some FreeSat channels, this
will only work for MPEG2 broadcasts as currently even the Vista version of
Media Center still does not support H.264 broadcasts at all. (Even for
DVB-T, Norway and New Zealand both use H.264 over DVB-T so they do not work
in Media Center currently).

I have seen other postings on the Internet that indicate that people have
succeeded getting these HD FreeSat channels using DVBviewer for Windows, or
the latest EyeTV 3.0.2 for Macintosh.

FreeSat is giving the impression that most/all of it is a new service. If so
then they should have gone straight to DVB-S2 and H.264 (even for SD) for
all the channels. To me it looks like most of the channels are exactly the
same (from the same satellite) as those currently available 'free' via Sky
(which is why they are using the 'old' DVB-S and MPEG2).

The reason this is an issue is that ALREADY they are saying they are full-up
on the satellite they are using. They are using a particular Astra satellite
that only covers the UK so as to avoid having to pay extra for the rights to
broadcast over Europe. Sky does not have this problem with other Astra
satellites and encrypted channels since they simply don't sell the viewing
cards in Europe.

PS. Allegedly the much delayed Media Center update to Vista (codename Fiji)
might add official DVB-S support and H.264 support. Seems like EVERYONE was waiting for this!!
post #30 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

Ben, my SageTV system does all that and more, for less.

Mike,
How is that possible when the computer costs $999 by itself? (BTW I should mention that when I built my last computer 3 years ago, I swore I would never do it again. So I gotta add an OEM PC in there somewhere.)

So with your $1120, would cost me $2120 before extenders, that is way more than I paid. And you say I have to look around for STBs? I can't just order them online as part of a package with a PC?

Don't get me wrong there was a time that building the PC was half the fun, but those days are over for me. I just want to get the thing home and start using it now. The ride to the destination is no longer part of the fun.

DRM? What DRM? I never noticed any DRM restrictions. I can record anything I want, and watch it whenever I want. Of course I can't make copies and distribute it around the Internet, but I don't consider that much of a restriction.
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