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EngadgetHD: Next Vista Media Center leaked -- no DirecTV HD till 2010? - Page 3

post #61 of 119
7/8/08 at 1:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl View Post

I forgot they have Sage for the mac. That is cool. I like OS X, it's a good OS, apple makes great hardware, they don't make affordable hardware for the everyman, but they do make great hardware for those that can afford it.

I just find that there is so much more I can do with my PC than I ever could with my mac. Windows is affordable, open, flexible and pervasive.

If the mac gives you what you need, great, it didn't for me, and it doesn't for the large majority of people.

Yep, I've tried "getting into" Macs and MAC OSX so many times, and inevitably always hit the "lack of software" walls. OSX has a few killer apps and that's it - Windows O/S is way more modular in terms of extensibility of software and development activity. I have a Mac Pro at home that sits and does nothing except for using Logic sometimes. I've tried an AppleTV and was underwhelmed - way too closed and proprietary of a system. Basically a nice interface for 720p HD trailers (if I recall the unit maxes out at 720p).

I'm all about best tool for the job. Whatever gets me one interface to not only tune in and record cable/satellite but also play Bluray iso's, MKV's, DVD's, etc. is the one I'm going with regardless of who makes it.
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post #62 of 119
7/8/08 at 1:27am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by politby View Post

Hopefully to make a few things a bit more clear. One of the early betas of the "Fiji" update, a build from April, included functioning
H.264/AVC support for DVB-S and DVB-T, as well as in-stream EPG, DVB teletext, support for mixed tuners, and some other goodies.
So those in possession of that build have been able to watch OTA HD broadcasts in DVB-T H.264, such as BBC HD in the UK, SVT HD in Sweden, etc.

I do not know whether there was a native H.264 codec in that build or if testers have installed 3rd party codecs in order to be able to view H.264 streams.

In the build that went out recently ("RC0") - this is the build that those German screenshots came from - H.264 support has been taken out. That started the rumors that MS would in fact not support H.264 in "Fiji" after all.

From this I infer that something must have happened to cause MS to no longer include H.264 in the build. I can't imagine this being for technical reasons - after all, it worked in the April build and how hard can it be - more likely it is a DRM issue.

Like I said in my post over at thegreenbutton - there was a time when Microsoft would have told content providers, AACS, and the others to go pound sand and then deliver the functionality and worry about the lawsuits later.

I don't think we have enough data for any meaningful speculation at this point (though we will anyway thanks to human nature) based on some screenshots off a german website. Who knows if native H.264 codec has really been stripped or not - could be any number of reasons it's gone (if it's really gone). Pulled back temporarily for problems it was causing in the rest of the software, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

MSFT could do a great job here, but they keep screwing up. Maybe they care about trying to enhance the TV experience as Chris said, and that they put a ton of resources against it, but I sure can't tell based on what the product does.

I mean, some of these companies like Sage are tiny compared with MSFT. How can they stomp all over VMC in terms of functionality? Either MSFT is completely incompetent, or they aren't interested in the market. I tend to believe it's the latter.

I think the team that works on VMC is very competent and has the technical ability to do everything us enthusiasts could dream for it to do. I base this on some of the blogs of current and former members of the M.C. dev team. The way these dev teams generally work is they have a punch list of hundreds and hundreds of feature adds they work on, sorted by whatever fits their vision of the product's future best, and along the way other departments or middle managers or even legal dept. catch wind of certain things and all of a sudden the team's wings are clipped from carrying out or continuing with certain features - often it's demoralizing.

Who knows if there are AACS/content provider/DRM/legal politics or pressures at play at Microsoft or whether it's for other unknown reasons, I guess we won't really know until a more complete and/or public build surfaces.
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post #63 of 119
7/8/08 at 1:43am
Thread Starter 
By the way, how many people realize Microsoft is one of the 8 founders of AACS? I didn't know until recently. http://www.aacsla.com/founders/

Microsoft having the stance "oh yes, we support piracy. Oops we mean anti-piracy" for so many decades is one thing, but being a torch bearer for AACS is quite another thing though. First part of that statement is based on MS's years of turning their heads the other way when it came to business Windows license enforcement (lack of) since the base O/S was the catalyst for their cash cow Office suite not to mention aided in the proliferation of Windows O/S worldwide).

I guess it shouldn't be too surprising, since they've long been proponents of DRM though, and DRM is about control and "who gets to do what", more so than it's about preventing copying.

I wonder if MS's AACS board status factors into the M.C. dev team being leaned on by management not to make M.C. too much (too good) of a swiss army knife for doing whatever we want with audio and visual media.
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post #64 of 119
7/8/08 at 2:51am
Microsoft had a press release a while back, I think when AACS was formed on how a software solution wasn't enough for copy protection and stated the need for hardware limitations to be added.

I believe we won't see a full control media center from Microsoft until Windows 7 is released as I believe that will be a subscribtion module based os. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...scription.html That way they will keep the mpaa and riaa happy while having their own cash cow.

If this is the case, I really think in order from keep the masses from flocking to another os or media center they will have to get good content. An example would be a contract with dish or if the fcc would let them buy them out to keep the cost down for consumers. As far fetched as that may sound now, in this economy, if you can't beat them buy them or their suppliers is becoming the norm, look at Budweiser.

This is pure speculation at this point and some abstract thinking on my part.
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post #65 of 119
7/8/08 at 3:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccsmoke View Post

....we won't see a full control media center from Microsoft until Windows 7 is released as I believe that will be a subscribtion module based os. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...scription.html That way they will keep the mpaa and riaa happy while having their own cash cow....

I think this is part of it... that and the notion of the updates being oem only... Microsoft is listening... it's listening to the content producers, it's listen to the box builders, it's listening to custom installers, and they are all what to maximize profit. But what are they offering?

Basically, it's a marketing scam... It starts with expensive boxes, then monthly service fees, then annual contracts for software, repeated every three years. It'll look like this by Windows 7:

In the full on marketing approach to Media Center, we will all have to buy a several thousand dollar box and accompanying extenders for several hundred more, with mandated service contracts, and annual subscription fee for updates, in addition to your existing cable bill!


Now, some (few) people will like this, and will gladly fork over the money. Others won't like, and will be stuck with, well with what we have today, which will become increasingly less viable over time as technology changes (digital transistion, SDV, Mpeg4 broadcasting, etc.).

BTW: this is the "Home Theater Computers" forum, not the Microsoft exclusive forum, and yes, mac jokes are trolling! Just cause you find it funny, too, doesn't mean it's appropriate.
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post #66 of 119
7/8/08 at 5:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by odditory View Post

I guess it shouldn't be too surprising, since they've long been proponents of DRM though, and DRM is about control and "who gets to do what", more so than it's about preventing copying.

I wonder if MS's AACS board status factors into the M.C. dev team being leaned on by management not to make M.C. too much (too good) of a swiss army knife for doing whatever we want with audio and visual media.

We all know how well AACS worked out for them...
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post #67 of 119
7/8/08 at 5:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by politby View Post

Like I said in my post over at thegreenbutton - there was a time when Microsoft would have told content providers, AACS, and the others to go pound sand and then deliver the functionality and worry about the lawsuits later.

That was before the EU and the US decided MS was their new treasury fund.

We can thank our governments for the way MS has become.
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post #68 of 119
7/8/08 at 5:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Youdontknowdoyou View Post

P.S. what about tweaking the RC0 July with the April h.264 support

That is my thought.

Since the capability has already been released, then removed, I can see groups adding it back in and releasing it to the wild.

Heck, maybe MS knows people will do this and it is their way of getting around DRM idiocy.

"We removed the capability. It is not our fault people are hacking the OS and putting it back in..."
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post #69 of 119
7/8/08 at 6:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogen View Post

When talking about North America, DVB-S in on the way out and DVB-S2 is not gonna arrive any time soon (TurboFEC is not part of it).
S2 support in VMC has no effect on the market here whatsoever...

Diogen.

According to the spec of the DirecTV HDPC-20 box which is for use with VMC and currently being beta-tested it uses both DVB-S and DVB-S2. DirecTV uses almost exactly the same technology as BSkyB here in the UK (not surprising since they DirecTV used to be part owned by News International).

DVB-S is used for mainly SD channels, and DVB-S2 for HD channels (BBCHD uses DVB-S with H.264). They would be able to free up a lot of capacity by converting SD channels to DVB-S2 and H.264 but this would then mean owners of current boxes/tuners would no longer be able to access them and cause an uproar. Hence why only new HD channels start off on DVB-S2 and H.264.
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post #70 of 119
7/8/08 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jelockwood View Post

According to the spec of the DirecTV HDPC-20 box which is for use with VMC and currently being beta-tested it uses both DVB-S and DVB-S2. DirecTV uses almost exactly the same technology as BSkyB here in the UK (not surprising since they DirecTV used to be part owned by News International).

DVB-S is used for mainly SD channels, and DVB-S2 for HD channels (BBCHD uses DVB-S with H.264). They would be able to free up a lot of capacity by converting SD channels to DVB-S2 and H.264 but this would then mean owners of current boxes/tuners would no longer be able to access them and cause an uproar. Hence why only new HD channels start off on DVB-S2 and H.264.

Well, With DirecTV 11 slated to come online soon and DirecTV 12 getting ready for launch later this year, they will have a TON of Ka-band capacity available, so they can do a lot with out having to reclaim the old MPEG2 channels. Still, they want to get everyone moved over and and actively working that for other reasons - the new boxes have VOD and a whole pile of other features that the old ones don't, in addition to the HD programming that will only get better.
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post #71 of 119
7/8/08 at 1:36pm
maybe the h264 support is just broken with this release? i installed the leaked update and here is the new video decoder included in it.

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post #72 of 119
7/8/08 at 3:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by plat View Post

maybe the h264 support is just broken with this release? i installed the leaked update and here is the new video decoder included in it.


Leaked to where? Usenet? P2P? Anyway I never gave much thought to those german screenshots or the rumors about H.264 being removed - anything can happen between now and the RTM version. Dev team can pull out features from interim builds and put them back later simply because they may be having troubles with certain parts but don't want to hold up interim testing on other parts.
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post #73 of 119
7/8/08 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by odditory View Post

Leaked to where? Usenet? P2P? Anyway I never gave much thought to those german screenshots or the rumors about H.264 being removed - anything can happen between now and the RTM version. Dev team can pull out features from interim builds and put them back later simply because they may be having troubles with certain parts but don't want to hold up interim testing on other parts.

more info at the green button from msft types... it's gone.. give it up!

edit---

from the looks of it, msft is getting a earfull... seems like years of pent up frustation at never being listen to is being taking out on a couple of lone ms employees... at least they appear to be employees... could just be lame pr types or mvpees....
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post #74 of 119
7/8/08 at 5:46pm
Do you guys remember how old this idea "DirecTV-on-PC" is?

It was announced 2.5(!!!) years ago and was called "love connection".
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060105-5913.html
Quote:


DirecTV and Microsoft have signed a long-term agreement that will tightly integrate DirecTV's programming with PCs running Windows Media Center edition, the Xbox 360, and some portable devices. Most significantly, HTPC owners will be able to forego usage of DirecTV set-top boxes, as their PCs will be able to function as a DirecTV receiver.

Nine months later this was the bastard child born from that announcement
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060927-7842.html
Quote:


DIRECTV's new DVR is capable of recording up to 200 hours of standard definition programming or up to 50 hours of HD. When connected to a Viiv PC via its integrated digital media adapter, DIRECTV Plus HD DVR owners will be able to view digital photos and listen to music on their living room entertainment centers.

180 degree turn: DirecTV DVR owners will be able to tap into the PC! Pathetic...

Fast forward 20 months... The DirecTV idea looks completely f*cked up. Finally. Why is everybody surprised/pissed?

Diogen.
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post #75 of 119
7/8/08 at 6:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankinla View Post

BTW: this is the "Home Theater Computers" forum, not the Microsoft exclusive forum, and yes, mac jokes are trolling! Just cause you find it funny, too, doesn't mean it's appropriate.

You are right. This is the HTPC forum. And this thread is about Vista Media Center. If you've got VMC and are seriously let down by the fact that this rumor may be true, so be it. If, on the other hand, you are just joining in this thread to slam the crap out of an MS product just because you want to see it fail, well... then that's just ******.
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post #76 of 119
7/8/08 at 11:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankinla View Post

BTW: this is the "Home Theater Computers" forum, not the Microsoft exclusive forum, and yes, mac jokes are trolling! Just cause you find it funny, too, doesn't mean it's appropriate.

It certainly is, and there's a section in here for Mac and a section in here for Linux. If you're interested in either platform, I suggest you visit those sections.

This particular thread is about VMC Fiji and if you have additional concrete information concerning this update that hasn't been covered by the EngadgetHD blog, please enlighten the few of us who are running VMC and are interested in the new features in Fiji.
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post #77 of 119
7/9/08 at 5:28am
I think they removed 264 as a troubleshooting method. They wanted to make sure it was not there so other items could be tested.

Much like uninstalling your anti-virus program when troubleshooting why Arcsoft TMT's latest updated breaks the program for you but not others.

Is the AV program gone forever? No, just temporarily removed to aid in fixing a completely different problem.
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post #78 of 119
7/9/08 at 5:54am
Possibly another update coming with DirecTV support after the Media Center TV Pack is released -

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/07/08...due-this-year/

According to this report, MS took it out of the upcoming update simply because it was not going to be ready by the end of July (which is when they promised international support to OEM's). They could possibly re-add it in a later update.....? I have no idea how much truth there is to this, and who knows how long until this "next" update, but it gives me atleast a little glimmer of hope that it is still in the works.
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post #79 of 119
7/9/08 at 5:55am
Either way I just purchased DVB Viewer so I'm covered for H.264 DVB-T OTA

Worse case I can use VMC for analog and DVB Viewer for DTV

PS - DVD Viewer also plays Blu-rays back in file mode now as well.
Works fine for me unless I pause the video
when I restart the video I lose the video and get audio only
I haven't tried to change the configuration so maybe there will be an easy fix
it's still in the early stages but what a great coming feature for such a cheap program
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post #80 of 119
7/9/08 at 10:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I think they removed 264 as a troubleshooting method. They wanted to make sure it was not there so other items could be tested.

Much like uninstalling your anti-virus program when troubleshooting why Arcsoft TMT's latest updated breaks the program for you but not others.

Is the AV program gone forever? No, just temporarily removed to aid in fixing a completely different problem.

That was my first (gut) reaction too - that they pulled it back out in the latest build to be able to isolate some other things. During the Vista and XP beta's there were also features removed temporarily in interim builds where people screamed and speculated the feature was gone forever, and it showed up again in the next interim build.

I think the leaked screenshots and speculation are interesting, but there's no reason to panic until the product goes gold / RTM.
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post #81 of 119
7/9/08 at 10:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsb View Post

Either way I just purchased DVB Viewer so I'm covered for H.264 DVB-T OTA

Worse case I can use VMC for analog and DVB Viewer for DTV

PS - DVD Viewer also plays Blu-rays back in file mode now as well.
Works fine for me unless I pause the video
when I restart the video I lose the video and get audio only
I haven't tried to change the configuration so maybe there will be an easy fix
it's still in the early stages but what a great coming feature for such a cheap program

This is good news. I absolutely hate having to have MyMovies spawn PowerDVD or Arcsoft TMT as a separate window/process to be able to play my ripped BD movies. Native H.264 playback, let alone BD folder structure playback, are GODsends.

If I was a fly on the wall at media center dev team's office, I'd love to know what discussions they've had about how to address PAVP/PAP natively in Vista and/or Fiji for bitstreaming audio over HDMI. Unfortunately I don't have any hope that a full PAP implementation won't come until Windows 7.
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post #82 of 119
7/9/08 at 2:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl View Post

You are right. This is the HTPC forum. And this thread is about Vista Media Center. If you've got VMC and are seriously let down by the fact that this rumor may be true, so be it. If, on the other hand, you are just joining in this thread to slam the crap out of an MS product just because you want to see it fail, well... then that's just ******.

wow... you are so off base... I have defended Vista as a product on many occasions, just as I have vociferously attacked the incompetence of microsoft managent.

I don't want to see vista fail... if that was my desire i would just sit back and laugh!

And if you think, for one moment, that my attacks upon the judgment calls of MS leadership will cause the product to fail:
A) you have an extremely high opinion of me.. Thank You!
B) You!! have an extremely low opinion of microsoft. Just like me!!
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post #83 of 119
7/9/08 at 3:45pm
I'm not of base. Reading your posts, myself and a number of others got the same impression.

You need to change your posting style if that's what you are trying to get across.
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post #84 of 119
7/9/08 at 5:03pm
My post on here are a matter of record... I have frequently attacked Microsoft's decision making.. show me were I have attacked MCE or VMC.
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post #85 of 119
7/9/08 at 7:21pm
I did go back and read your posts just to make sure I wasn't off base. I wasn't your posts do come off as anti MC (they come across as negative on just about everything though... so maybe that's just your style).
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post #86 of 119
7/9/08 at 8:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl View Post

I did go back and read your posts just to make sure I wasn't off base. I wasn't your posts do come off as anti MC (they come across as negative on just about everything though... so maybe that's just your style).

Ever here of the phrase Ad Hominem Fallacy? Look it up. You seem hell bent on making this personal... As opposed to actions Microsoft is planning to take in contradiction to it's word and letter, again...

Sticks and stones biggal

But this thread is sufficiently derailed, though it would have cooled done in time anyways.
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post #87 of 119
7/10/08 at 12:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl View Post

I did go back and read your posts just to make sure I wasn't off base. I wasn't your posts do come off as anti MC (they come across as negative on just about everything though... so maybe that's just your style).

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankinla View Post

Ever here of the phrase Ad Hominem Fallacy? Look it up. You seem hell bent on making this personal... As opposed to actions Microsoft is planning to take in contradiction to it's word and letter, again...

Sticks and stones biggal

But this thread is sufficiently derailed, though it would have cooled done in time anyways.

Alright now, don't make me have to go find that famous picture and post it ("arguing on the internet is like running in special olympics, even if you win, you're still a retard").

Fact is, Microsoft is going to do what they're going to do and we get both the privelege and lack of choice together in accepting whatever that is. If it continues to be the best tool for the job (integrating as much bleeding edge television functionality into a PC as possible) then we'll use it. If some other third party comes out of left field and surpasses functionality of everyone else, we'll use that.

When it really comes down to it, I think corporate allegiances are a myth (except maybe followers of turtleneck guy) and people are going to tend to use what works best regardless of who made it.

Now get back to enjoying the summer.
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post #88 of 119
7/10/08 at 1:10am
Anyways...back to Fiji...

I'm personally not so hot on DirecTV anyways. What I want is for them to do sub-channels correctly in Fiji.
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post #89 of 119
7/10/08 at 1:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by odditory View Post

Now get back to enjoying the summer.

and what Summer would that be ? It'd done nothing but rain here in the UK !

Sorry for being OT ;-)
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post #90 of 119
7/10/08 at 10:15am
It wasn't my intent to get in a tit-for-tat deal on the thread. I'm done.

I'm partial to DirecTV, I had a very good experience with them thru the years so I am really interested in this release. I'm also hoping that the ATSC guide issues are resolved and I hope they fix this by adding native support for multiple TV sources... i.e. directv along with cable. I'm not holding my breath on that one but you never know.

Yeah, and you know... I'm not really big on corporate allegience either, but I just had a much better customer service from DirecTV than I do with my cable company and my cable company just keeps increasing their rates. ...and I'm a cheap bastard.
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