Zinwell ZAT-970A? - Page 13

Thought I would pass along that I saw both the 970 & 970A on the store shelves in a Meijer today. (ETA: this was in Chicago suburbs)

Has anyone in the Central Florida area seen any available in stores?

I just noticed that my Zinwell had done the exact same thing. It was set for 12/31/2047 and therefore an hour slow. I have been checking the time regularly throughout the day so this just happened overnight - time was correct when I went beddy bye.

Oh well . . . in just a few weeks I'll be able to go back to PSIP time.

OH JOY! Just discovered that it not only changed the time but also the channel of the programmed events. Horrors that the Zinwell event timers might be buggy too!!!! @##%&#@

Some channels will have the right time others will be off by an hour. It all depends if the DST setting is correct or not.

Setting the time manually gets around the DST conundrum. All channels display the identical time if it is set manually. The Zinwell is the only box that I am aware of that allows manual time setting.

I thought a summary of my situation would be helpful.

I got my ZAT-970A in early September. All was well until October 2 when it decided that DST had ended - all PSIP data was reading one hour behind real time.

I rescanned the channels, unplugged the unit etc. but the time remained incorrect. I called all my local channels and they said the problem wasn't on their end.

Setting the time to GMT didn't work - the clock was still one hour slow. So I set the time manually.

However, since doing a manual reset two more bugs have appeared:

1. Several times the clock has reset itself to 12/31/2047! This has been documented by another individual in this thread. The result is that the time is once again one hour early.

2. And on more than one occasion, the wakeup channel was changed on ALL of the event timers to the same incorrect channel - 54 instead of the one programmed. This just happened again this morning. Fortunately, I was here to catch the error.

The only reason I got the ZAT-970A was for the timers, so right now I'm getting a little frustrated. Guess the Zinwell honeymoon is over . . .

Anyone else dealing with these problems?

I started lurking around this board looking for info on the ZAT-970, since I ran into the Oct 2 DST problem; the issues discussed here certainly explained a lot.

I noticed that the time display for 10 out of 16 stations in the Phila area were exhibiting the 'one hour slow' problem. I sent email to some of these stations, but only received one reply, and an ongoing discussion, from the Chief Tech Officer at WHYY (Thanks, Bill!). He verified that their PSIP info is correct, thus implicating Mr. Zinwell's creation.

I then came to the conclusion that the stations showing the 'correct' time are probably not sending the DS day and hour data, so the box is not yet misinterpreting the time.

I alleviated my problem by lying about the time zone, which compensated for most of the stations, but of course the ones that were correct are now wrong. However, those particular channels are less mainstream so I'm picking the lesser of the evils.

What happens on Nov 2, or next spring, hard to say with bad software.

I shot off email to Zinwell's tech support, the second request I've made, and they are being abysmally silent. I might give their box fairly high marks for performance, a demerit for the DST problem, but a flat failure for customer support.

But, I have another problem, the subject of an unanswered Email I sent over a month ago. I set up a 'favorites' list to include only the channels I regularly watch. However, occasionally while surfing thru this list, it randomly switches to the 'all channel' mode.

The quickest way to correct that, I've found, is go to the list mode (where all the channels are listed), and hit the forward arrow key on the remote, which then selects the favorite list.

Annoying, sometimes it doesn't happen for a day or two, sometimes consecutively. Oddly, it seems to happen when crossing over Ch 17.1 (which IS in my favorites list).

To your questions, I have NOT seen any date reset problem; and I haven't been using the wakeup feature, so no comment there.

In the Emails to Zinwell, I asked about that software update procedure, how that works, and how I might use that to update the software if there ever is a correction.

I received my ZAT in late August or early September and haven't noticed any problems other than the DST issue. I set the clock manually for a couple of weeks when I first received the unit just to make sure that it worked, and I didn't notice it resetting itself or drifting wildly during that time. However, for the most part, I've left the clock on automatic to make things easy.

To get around the DST problem, I just set my timers 1 hour ahead. Not really a problem for me since I don't have any events that are back to back. I basically just use the ZAT with my VCR as a supplement to my DVD recorder when I want to record more than one show at a time, so the DST issue hasn't been that big of a deal for me.


I'm surprised that you haven't heard back from Zinwell. I sent them an e-mail a week or two ago and received a reply within 48 hours. Of course their reply was not very helpful though. It was pretty much a standard response stating that it is normal for times from various stations to be different. Their recommendation was to set the time manually. I sent back a reply restating that it appeared to be a DST problem, but I have not heard back from them since then.

I asked them about the software update feature in my original e-mail, and they indicated that the only way to do that would be over-the-air, in which case, they would have to pay stations to carry that data. Consequently, I wouldn't count on receiving any software updates from Zinwell.

I have also seen this since I went manual on the time (because of the DST issue) - I hadn't yet reported it as I was double checking this was not a user error, but after recording the wrong channels tonight, I am sure I set it correctly and the Zinwell has messed up.

Why Not Just Use The Manual Clock?

Most of us have been setting VCR clocks, by hand, all our lives. Just continue the same practice on your Zinwell. It's easier to do that then to keep calling customer non-service.

Please reread the most recent threads carefully.

I DID set the clock manually after the DST screwup. But then the event timer started changing channels. This has happened about a half dozen times since Oct. 2.

So last night, I went back to PSIP time. It requires a little mental gymnastics to get the time right but hopefully it will now wake up to the correct channel.

That's weird. I didn't notice that problem (random channel changing) with my Zinwell. I set the clock manually and the timer event fired-off in correct order.

Hmmm. Maybe I better hook it up again and verify it works properly.

I just received an response from Zinwell. Probably the same one that you got. Obviously, English is not the writer's native language:


Looks like this could turn into another DTVPal-like fiasco.

The channel changing is not random. It ALWAYS switches to channel 54 which is the CW. I have never programmed a timer event to that channel. Weird.

OK. Did a little more testing. The DST issue does NOT seem to be connected to the channel switch of programmed events. I can initiate the channel switch by unplugging the unit! So likely any power disruption will cause the programmed event wakeup channel to change. It is interesting that all the channel information is kept in memory as is everything else about the timed events EXCEPT for the wakeup channel. (My VCRs have no problem remembering event info after a power outage.) If you live in a rural area like I do, power dropouts happen regularly rendering the timers unreliable to useless. It would be safer to just set any CECB on the wakeup channel and turn off the inactivity timer. Plus with the Zenith, the PQ would be better.

I'd appreciate if someone else could unplug their ZAT to see what happens to the event timers.

PS. I know that someone will recommend getting a UPS. Why should I have to put out even more money to make this work properly. It's cheaper to just babysit the CECBs to make sure they're tuned to the correct channel. Since I am home most of the time, I have the luxury of doing that.

Not a very happy camper right now . . .

Concerning UPS backup -- actually, since the ZAT uses a simple 5V plug-in supply, it could make a sense to build a little battery-backup device using like 4 NiCd or NiMH batteries. I did something similar for a weather gadget, works marvelously.

Maybe just a BFC (Big Friggin' Capacitor) across the 5V supply could let you coast through short failures. Would need to test that one for what value is needed.

These solutions could be done external to the box so you don't have to break the warranty seal.

LOL...Yes, that's exactly the same e-mail I received from Zinwell.


I'm curious. It sounds like you leave your ZAT powered up 24x7. Have you tried actually powering it down and back up before unplugging it? I'm just wondering if that would preserve your timer events.

I tried unplugging the unit for a few minutes, and after plugging it back in, the channel on my timer event had not changed. I only have one event programmed at the moment. Do you have multiple events programmed? If so, does the channel change on all of them?

Plugged in but with the inactivity timer set to 4 hrs. It spends a lot of time in standby.


Yes and yes. I deleted the channel it was switching to (since I rarely watch it) and so far the wakeup channels are sticking as programmed. Keeping fingers crossed.

If you come up with something that is simple to execute, I'd give it a try. I wouldn't know where to start figuring it out on my own.

Weird Hope that work around continues to work for you.

I had just set up my newly purchased ZAT-970A when I read Golinux's post, and I had entered one timer event (a daily one), so I tried it.

The channel was changed to the one with the highest *virtual* (not physical) number known to the scan; that channel has no subs, so I don't know what would have happened if it did, whether the new channel for the event would have been the .1 major channel or the highest-numbered subchannel.

I corrected the channel but didn't notice that the system clock and calendar had been reset as well (the event's start time was still correct).  When the time came and the event did not fire, that's when I noticed.

It should be noted that I had the clock on manual setting, since several of our local channels have screwed up the DST bits in their PSIP data.  Perhaps some other group of settings will prevent this.  FWIW the event is on a channel whose PSIP clock is very reliable and is still on DST.

for the Zat, as I posted quite some time ago, if a timer fires and the channel its set to loses signal for any reason, the Zat will tune to and re-set the timer to the next availble channel.

Both 42.1 and 42.2 flipped to 54 the next (and highest) virtual channel. 42.1 did not go to 42.2.


I have not had the channel reset problem since I 1) went back to using PSIP time instead of the manual time setting and 2) deleted channel 54. Reliability of the timers is important so I decided that adjusting for the added hour was the lesser of two evils. It will all be over in a few weeks. Unfortunately, the problem will appear twice every year which is a PITA.

It is my understanding the PSIP time is irrelevant when using the manual time option.

I believe you, but that must be orthogonal to what I found, for the channel was already changed as soon as I replugged the box and turned it on, long before the timer event was supposed to start.

However, I've been unable to reproduce the effect since then.  On my subsequent tries, the channel remains unchanged.  If the clock is set for manual time setting, though, reconnecting the power does reset it to 00:00 on 2008-01-01.

Here's what I wonder: suppose the clock is set for PSIP time (adjusted either by named timezone or by numeric offset, which to my disappointment I found still tries to make sense of the station's DST info and therefore still gives me some stations already on ST and some still on DST) and the power goes out.  The power comes back on, and nobody turns the box on before the timer event is scheduled.  At what time will the timer event fire?  It's impossible to know what time or date the box thinks it is until you turn it on, and as soon as you turn it on, the current station's PSIP time and date overwrite whatever the box was thinking before.

I don't have a ZAT, but from what I have been reading, I don't think the problem with DST is the stations. It sounds like the ZAT programmers are handling the info wrong.
Per ATSC A/65C Program and System Information Protocol, Annex A 2 January 2006: Table A2 Basic Use of Daylight Savings Fields Through the Year
If we shorthand the info as "DS_status: DS_day_of_month: DS_hour"

It appears that some stations are sending out "ON:00:00" which virtually all receivers correctly interpret as "DST is currently active".

It appears that most stations are sending out "ON:02:02"
Properly programmed receivers interpret this as "DST is active, and will end on November 2, 2008 at 2AM" This is the only valid interpretation of this code for dates between October 3, 2008 and November 1, 2008.
Some receivers seem to interpret this as "DST was on, but it ended on October 2, 2008 at 2AM" If you read the rules, there is no way that this is correct, but it seems that the ZAT uses this interpretation. If DST had really ended on October 2, 2008 all stations would have been required to switch to "OFF:00:00" at some point on October 2, 2008.
The rule that specifies this is:

Some reasonably programmed receivers did get confused on October 2, 2008 when some stations jumped the gun and started sending "ON:02:02" even though they are not supposed to do that until the transition is LESS THAN a month away. Some receivers recovered at some point on October 2, 2008 but the rest of the reasonably programmed receivers recovered on October 3, 2008.

I suspect that the ZAT will finally get it right on November 1, 2008 when it will finally view the 02 as a future date, which it should have been doing begining October 3, 2008, at the latest.

Kenavs,

As long as it's right on some stations and wrong on others, then there are ways of dealing with it that work and ways that don't.  A station whose clock is coming out in standard time when daylight time is in effect could take a page from the book of a station that is getting a correct clock display, so as I see it, it is under the stations’ control.

Right now there are about four stations where my Zenith DTT901 shows standard time, and those four plus about three others where my Zinwell ZAT-970A shows standard time unless I set it for manual time; all the others display daylight time as they still should until November 2.  I'll see what happens on November 1 and again on November 2.

Meanwhile, the Digital Stream DTX9950 and the Venturer STB7766G1 display daylight time on all stations.  They may have their own stories to tell on November 2.

What I don't get is why the stations and the boxes can't just use the bit for "daylight time is/isn't in effect" and leave the information for when to switch in the future out, since it just messes things up.

Has anyone tried a factory reset to see if it would fix the DST glitch? It's an option in the Tools menu,

The stations are sending out different BUT VALID information. The specification is in clear English. That may be Zinwell's problem. They either don't understand the specifation, or they are sloppy programmers. In either case, the problem is in the ZAT. Most TVs and converters are having no problem.

I hooked up my ZAT970A the day before yesterday, after the DST trouble began, so I doubt that doing a reset now would fix it.  A reset on November 2, if it hasn't fixed itself, might be something to try.


... which some boxes understand and some do not.  The stations can change their PSIP streams to something that all boxes will understand; of course they won't, but consumers cannot redesign their boxes to understand all valid PSIP data.

The former won't happen, but the latter is impossible.

For the record, the Zenith DTT901 is getting it wrong on four stations, the Zinwell DAT970A on eight (which include the Zenith's four).  I receive fifteen digital stations (not counting the subchannels, just the major channels) here, and the other seven show the right hour on all of my CECBs.

Here's another problem I found in the ZAT970A: if you set the RF output to RF Through, and you turn the box off ("off" in the sense of standby, no need to unplug), then when you turn the box on again or a timer event turns it on again, the setting flips to Channel 3 or sometimes Channel 4 instead of returning to RF Through.  RF Through still works on most channels but not on those close to 3 or 4.

A minor annoyance: if you want to update the channel scan (which you do by saying "no" to the ill-phrased question "do you really want to delete all channels?" -- ill-phrased because it sounds as if saying no will abort the scan but in fact it will abort only the deletion of channels already mapped and the testing of their physical channels), then any channel names that you edited, even if the channel stays in the map, revert to their defaults.  Some of you may wonder why anyone would bother editing the channel names.  Usually I'm content with those sent by the stations, but when you're setting a timer event, the ZAT970A shows you only the names and not the numbers of the channels, so if two channels have the same assigned name, you can easily pick the wrong one if you haven't edited them to differ.  Here in Chicago, 11.2, 11.3, and 11.4 on UHF47 all are "WTTW-DT" yet carry different programming; 23.1 on UHF39 and 26.2 on UHF27 are both "MeTV" with the same programming, but 27's signal is stronger and steadier.  I need to be sure the timer will wake up on 26.2 and not on 23.1.

A larger annoyance: if you do a complete rescan of the channels, all timer events end up on a different channel.  This time it wasn't WGBO-DT (66.1, UHF53 for now) but ION's Worship (38.4 on UHF43).  I can understand losing the channel information but why, of all places, movint to that one?  Is it that lower-case letters are lexically later than upper-case letters, so Worship sorts later than WYCC-SD and is last on the list by channel nickname?  No, that can't be, because if lower-case letters are treated as later than upper-case letters, qubo would be last.

Right now the ZAT970A is turning up more and more little and not-so-little disappointments.  I don't need to own five boxes but only the ZAT970A and the Venturer STB7766G1 are still returnable, so I need to decide which one to take back.  (If I could still return the Magnavox TB100MG9 or the Digital Stream DTX9950, I would take one of those back instead, but their return periods have ended, and they're also the ones on which I used the NTIA coupons.)

This wasn't that tricky. Even the DISH programmers got it right

I don't think it is reasonable to expect stations to send out different information just because the Zinwell team is inept. It sounds like Zinwell is unable to handle stations currently sending out ON:02:02. As I read the standard, that is probably the preferred signal. It will allow a receiver to make the transition to DST OFF at the correct time, even if it is not tuned to an active digital station on the transition date. Rememeber, not all receivers that use this information are Coupon Elligible converters. Some TVs may use the information to update a local clock that is even displayed on analog stations.

It sounds like the Zinwell programmers completely messed up. Again, they either didn't understand some pretty clear English, or they are just bad programmers.

Have you tried to reset the Zenith, by unplugging it for a while. I would recommend at least 10 minutes. Based on what you have reported, it is possible that the Zenith was deceived on October 2, 2008 by stations that sent out ON:02:02 before they should have. Well programmed receivers have recovered by October 3, 2008 on their own, but the Zenith might respond to a power cycle reset, if that is the only reason it has some stations wrong.