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Questioning the usefulness of an "in the clear" QAM cable tuner

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
The main reason for a QAM tuner is to pull in unencrypted digital cable channels. I've mostly been satisfied with my QAM tuner in receiving digital broadcast channels like FOX, ABC, CBS, etc.... so I can watch HD content on my HDTV. But I say MOSTLY because every now and then the cable company (in my case Comcast) changes frequencies for these said channels and I have to rescan to find them again.

This already makes me feel like an "in the clear" QAM tuner is less than optimal, and not only that, you are pretty much forced to get a cable box (or cable card I suppose) to view non-broadcast digital cable channels anyway, which makes a QAM tuner seem even less useful.... not to mention more of a hassle since you have to have a cable box for every TV in the house.

Speaking of having cable boxes everywhere in the house, I currently have the option to NOT have a cable box on every TV because lots of the non-broadcast channels are still being transmitted with an analog signal. Yes, it's bad picture quality compared to digital, but I'll live with it over having a cable box on every TV.

However, with the digital transition coming, I'm afraid more and more non-broadcast cable channels (and maybe eventually broadcast channels too) are going digital only. I wouldn't be concerned about this much except that I'd bet that the non-broadcast digital channels are all going to be encrypted, which again, makes the "in the clear" QAM tuner useless for those channels. And even if they weren't encrypted, my first point of the cable companies randomly changing frequencies would still apply, which still makes it less than user friendly anyway.

So with all these things in mind, how useful is a "in the clear" QAM tuner going to be in the future? It seems like they'll be good for the broadcast channels for a while, but what about non-broadcast cable channels? Are cable boxes (or cable cards?) going to be a requirement to watch non-broadcast cable channels? Will the cable companies, if possible, stop randomly changing the broadcast frequencies (except maybe every once in a blue moon like they do with analog channels) so that all the digital channels stay where they are? I'd like to know your opinion as well as some potential evidence on how cable companies might handle this in the future.
post #2 of 20
Well, the cable companies are required to give an analog signal until 2012,
though they could give you the analog signal with a box that converts the
digital signal to analog, thus meeting the analog standard.
post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnied View Post

Well, the cable companies are required to give an analog signal until 2012,
though they could give you the analog signal with a box that converts the
digital signal to analog, thus meeting the analog standard.

Maybe they are required for the broadcast channels like FOX, CBS, ABC, etc.... but I'm more concerned about the non-broadcast cable channels. I don't think there are any restrictions on what they can or can't do with those, and my (as well as most people's) suspicion is that they will eventually (sooner than later) be only available digitally, and on top of that, scrambled digitally. Which brings us back to the beginning, is a in the clear QAM tuner really going to be useful aside from broadcast digital stuff?
post #4 of 20
Probably not, given that most everything is encrypted, even if it's not flagged for copy protection. It seems only a handful of channels no one really cares about generally end up being viewable via a clear-QAM receiver (other than locals), and as was pointed out, none-too-infrequent stream rebundling makes using the QAM channel-subchannel numbering an exercise in frustration. Also, even though cable operators are legally supposed to provide digital locals in the clear, that assumes the cable company knows what that means - my cable company doesn't understand the difference between CCI flagging and encryption, for example.

In short, no, I don't think a clear QAM tuner is going to be generally useful, and the only reason they're included is because it's frequently cheap enough to drop in a chipset that does both 8-VSB and 64/256-QAM.
post #5 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdp76 View Post


So with all these things in mind, how useful is a "in the clear" QAM tuner going to be in the future?

The same it's good for now; local HD.
post #6 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

The same it's good for now; local HD.

...and for a lot of folks that mostly watch just the locals (and have a "free" cable connection due to their Internet sub+can't be bothered with an antenna) it's plenty good enough.
post #7 of 20
I was recently wondering the same thing. Especially now that a lot of cable companies are going to Switched Digital Video. Will current QAM tuners work with SDV, or is SDV just for On Demand stuff?
post #8 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdp76 View Post

Maybe they are required for the broadcast channels like FOX, CBS, ABC, etc.... but I'm more concerned about the non-broadcast cable channels. I don't think there are any restrictions on what they can or can't do with those, and my (as well as most people's) suspicion is that they will eventually (sooner than later) be only available digitally, and on top of that, scrambled digitally. Which brings us back to the beginning, is a in the clear QAM tuner really going to be useful aside from broadcast digital stuff?

Most of the digital channels on Charter in Madison, WI are already scrambled - with the exception of the locals (SD & HD). A year ago I could pick up all of the digital channels, but no more. Unless you live for shopping channels - they are always unencrypted, of course.
post #9 of 20
Anything with a Cable Card and any future downloadable security must have a QAM tuner so the price for adding clear QAM to them is zero.
post #10 of 20
I think that it totally sucks that cable companies want to cram boxes down our throats! Here in Bakersfield the only digital channels that are not scrambled are the local HD channels. The digital simulcasts of public access channels, out-of-market stations from Los Angeles (SD only), and shopping channels are all scrambled. Until last October some of these weren't, but they are now. I might have f***ed this up myself because I got into an argument with one of their managers at last year's Kern County Fair. He might have been unaware that there were as many clear QAM channels as there were. He said that using clear QAM tuners is a form of legalized piracy. When they eliminate analog expanded basic I might downgrade to limited basic or disconnect cable altogether and to OTA only.

It seems like fewer tv sets are being made with QAM tuners now than there were a year ago. More and more sets on store shelves only say "ATSC digital tuner" or "ATSC/NTSC", with no mention of QAM. Should we assume that if QAM isn't specifically mentioned that it means that the tv doesn't include QAM?
post #11 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerstalker View Post

I was recently wondering the same thing. Especially now that a lot of cable companies are going to Switched Digital Video. Will current QAM tuners work with SDV, or is SDV just for On Demand stuff?

More cable companies are using SDV for regular programming, not just on-demand/impulse PPV content, but linear channels as well. Not all, but an increasing number; if a channel is using SDV, a plain QAM tuner won't be able to view it, unless it's been activated by another tuner connected to your local node - in which case it could disappear at any time, depending on how long they watch, and if the local node requests it be shut off right away or if it waits until there's a need to reclaim that bandspace. And of course, it can end up on any QAM channel - who knows where it'll be. That's why devices like the HD-enabled TiVos need the Tuning Adapters that Cisco/SA and Moto are supposed to be releasing soon.
post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Hawk View Post

It seems like fewer tv sets are being made with QAM tuners now than there were a year ago. More and more sets on store shelves only say "ATSC digital tuner" or "ATSC/NTSC", with no mention of QAM. Should we assume that if QAM isn't specifically mentioned that it means that the tv doesn't include QAM?

No! Many/most TV specs don't mention the QAM tuner but it's in there. The way to find out is by looking at the manual - it'll describe the way to scan for digital cable chs.

People have to realize that the days of getting most of your chs directly from the coax are quickly coming to an end (it's already over with FIOS). Locals only in clear QAM will be the norm for years to come. The one change that will come fairly soon is TVs (some by the end of the year) with Tru2way built in eliminating the need for an STB.
post #13 of 20
I've been using both PCHD cards and (recently) a digital cable ready flat screen to record and watch the local HD channels clear QAM for many years now, in 5 different locations with mostly different cable providers. They really don't seem to change the channels that often and when they do the info is rapidly shared in the local forums here on AVS.

- Tom
post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnied View Post

Well, the cable companies are required to give an analog signal until 2012,
though they could give you the analog signal with a box that converts the
digital signal to analog, thus meeting the analog standard.

Well, if that were true, it would defeat the purpose of being able to watch Analog without a box. Furthermore, that isn't even true, as they can go Digital-only at any time, by providing customers with Digital boxes. Similar to what you said, but its Digital instead. The purpose of the rule is, if the cable co. has any Analog, it must include Analog locals until at least 2-12.
post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Hawk View Post

It seems like fewer tv sets are being made with QAM tuners now than there were a year ago. More and more sets on store shelves only say "ATSC digital tuner" or "ATSC/NTSC", with no mention of QAM. Should we assume that if QAM isn't specifically mentioned that it means that the tv doesn't include QAM?

QAM is more prevalant than ever. The problem is the varying usage of the terminology. Technically, an 'ATSC Digital Tuner' can be for OTA or OTA and Digital Cable. For clarity, it should say 'ATSC Digital Tuner-8VSB (OTA) & QAM (Unencrypted Digital Cable)'. If no QAM, just leave that off. Unfortunately, QAM is sometimes just not specified. Sometimes, 'ATSC' means just ATSC-8VSB and 'QAM' is obviously ATSC-QAM.
post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdp76 View Post

So with all these things in mind, how useful is a "in the clear" QAM tuner going to be in the future?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

The same it's good for now; local HD.

Not necessarily. There have been several articles about the Digital Terminal Adapter w/o conditional access; so, Comcast would have to put Expd. Basic SD Digital in the clear, to be viewable with DTAs or a clear-QAM Digital TV. One person claimed that the process was already underway in one area; we'll see if it comes to fruition.
post #17 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Hawk View Post


It seems like fewer tv sets are being made with QAM tuners now than there were a year ago. More and more sets on store shelves only say "ATSC digital tuner" or "ATSC/NTSC", with no mention of QAM. Should we assume that if QAM isn't specifically mentioned that it means that the tv doesn't include QAM?

With regards to DVD recorders very few with digital tuners mention QAM anymore but I haven't heard of one with the digital tuner that didn't get QAM. If you ask me they purposely leave QAM off the box because of all the problems with non STB, QAM tuner devices. SDV, most channels being scrambled, etc. Too many returns from people thinking their going to get ALL the digital channels and get very few other than the locals and shopping channels.
post #18 of 20
I find my QAM tuner to be very useful. I cant get OTA where I live, Im a D* sub and my HD locals are not available via D*. Without my QAM tuner I would have no HD networks at all, unless I wanted to sign up for Charter HD services, which is something Id like to avoid.

I dont even subscribe to any cable TV at all either. All I have from Charter is the 5.0 cable internet for $30 a month, and this is enough to get me the QAM channels ABCHD, NBCHD, CBSHD, FOXHD, and Fox Sports Detroit HD. I love my QAM tuner!
post #19 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by guffy1 View Post

I dont even subscribe to any cable TV at all either. All I have from Charter is the 5.0 cable internet for $30 a month, and this is enough to get me the QAM channels ABCHD, NBCHD, CBSHD, FOXHD, and Fox Sports Detroit HD. I love my QAM tuner!

You should avoid saying that - the cable police will show up soon.....
post #20 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by QZ1 View Post

Quote:


Originally Posted by johnied
Well, the cable companies are required to give an analog signal until 2012,
though they could give you the analog signal with a box that converts the
digital signal to analog, thus meeting the analog standard.

Well, if that were true, it would defeat the purpose of being able to watch Analog without a box.

Who's "purpose"? Certainly not the FCCs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by QZ1 View Post

Furthermore, that isn't even true, as they can go Digital-only at any time, by providing customers with Digital boxes. Similar to what you said, but its Digital instead. The purpose of the rule is, if the cable co. has any Analog, it must include Analog locals until at least 2-12.

He basically said the same thing:
Quote:


though they could give you the analog signal with a box that converts the
digital signal to analog
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