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*Official* Denon AVR 1909/789 Thread - Page 365

post #10921 of 11323
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post

I am considering purchasing a Definitive Technology sub that does not have a volume control. I am concerned that not having that will prevent proper Audessey setup. Anyone have experience with the 800 or 1000 model? I am also considering the super cube 2000 which does have a volume control, but it a little more than what I want to spend. The sc has more power, but for less I can get one with better bass extension?

Any other suggestions? For a decent middle of the road powered sub that the 1909 will like that has at least bass down to 20 cycles and is not more than $500. Caveat is that Crutchfield has to carry it.

No personal experience with either the Prosub 800 or 1000, however, based on the linked Amazon photo, the volume knob on both subs is on the side of the sub.

http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Tec.../dp/B000TDEM5C

And it's not a matter of the 1909 "liking" a sub as the sub comes with it's own amp. You might also want to ask for suggestions in the Sub forum.
post #10922 of 11323
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post


Well, that is a very poor design. Hopefully if and when it happens again the ups will keep it going. I'm going to move the avr to the ups after hearing this. Anyone know the amp/power in watts draw on the 1909 while in standby without hdmi control on? I think it is around 50 or 60 with hdmi control for pass thru on?

Nevermind found what I needed on the first post. At .3 watts I think I can keep my settings alive for a while. I don't think the dvr pulls much either when switched off since it stayed up during the entire 4 hour or so outage we had recently. So if the power fails while everything is in standby all will be well. If it happens to fail while I am using the system I will power down the avr and dvr to preserve their respective settings etc. A good argument to never use hdmi pass-thru as that would eat 30 watts of power and drain the ups rather quickly.
post #10923 of 11323
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post


No personal experience with either the Prosub 800 or 1000, however, based on the linked Amazon photo, the volume knob on both subs is on the side of the sub.

http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Tec.../dp/B000TDEM5C

And it's not a matter of the 1909 "liking" a sub as the sub comes with it's own amp. You might also want to ask for suggestions in the Sub forum.

Thanks. You saved me some clams! For some reason the Crutchfield specs don't mention the volume control. It may have one issue and that is I'm not sure if the xover is bypass able. Hopefully the life input lacks a xover.
post #10924 of 11323
^^
As is the case with most subs, simply set the Low Pass Crossover to it's max setting (ie. 150hz).
post #10925 of 11323
I have the 1000 and it works great with Audyssey. I just set the low pass filter to 120. I have been pleased with it, especially because of its small footprint.
post #10926 of 11323
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpzbc View Post

I have the 1000 and it works great with Audyssey. I just set the low pass filter to 120. I have been pleased with it, especially because of its small footprint.

Thanks for the info and input. I knew I could count on my AVS buddies to set me straight. Now I need to decide between the 800 and 1000. I am very budget conscious. My current Yammy has a 10" so I may stick with that. I'm also curious if I will really get any better bass than I have now. My Yammy is a little old school and it does bottom out on intense LFE stuff. I'm sure my wife who is often right above the HT would appreciate me keeping what I have ;-)
post #10927 of 11323
I would say go for the 1000. You want your sub to be able to step it up when you want it to. Like on "Hurt Locker" or some other movie with a good soundtrack. Good luck.
post #10928 of 11323
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpzbc View Post

I would say go for the 1000. You want your sub to be able to step it up when you want it to. Like on "Hurt Locker" or some other movie with a good soundtrack. Good luck.

Thanks! I bit the bullet and ordered a scratch-n-dent 1000 along with a Mythos 7 center. I have bought lots of s-n-d items from Crutchfield and never had a problem. Only cost me $13.25 out of my pocket since I redeemed Discover Cash Back for everything. Got double Crutchfield points while I was at it. Only $580 in DCB needed for the $738 purchase. Not too bad. Too bad Chrutch does not have the Myth. 8 since it has 5.25 drivers rather than 3.5, but I should be good with a center that goes to 60? Besides I'm limited on the size of center I can fit in front of my TV.

I figured I needed to update my sub and center since those are the two most important items in a HT sound set-up. Years ago I got the Yammy sub for just over $100 and it is pretty good, but not great and I've been running a Bose center for years now due to some space issues. I like the Bose size and it sounds ok (I kinda like the direct-reflective pattern, but Aud. does not - always get a phase error). It might turn out I hate the sub and/or the center is also too tall for my set-up (but I have an IR blaster now so that problem should be solvable). If so Chrutch has a 60 day return policy, which is the main reason I go through them for almost everything.

I will post a report in a week or two once I get everything set up.

Next projects are to modify my still virgin Insignia fronts (need more insulation and one of the xover mods, though they sound pretty good to me now) and a possible projector and motorized screen to come down in front of the TV for movie watching. I may not do the latter since I can buy ginormous Mitsu DLP projection TVs for way cheep compared to other TB tech and I prefer the look of DLP and plasma over all the LCD/LED crap that is being crammed down everyones throats since it is cheeper to make and more energy efficient.

One of these days I will upgrade the Denon, but thankfully today is not that day. I still need the multi analog ins for my ancient SACD/DVD-Audio player and most if not all of the mid-line Denons have now removed that.
post #10929 of 11323
Nice! Keep us posted.
post #10930 of 11323
Now that I have my AVR on the UPS and nothing bad has happened, yet. I forgot that I meant to post a question a while back.

How do you know what 7.1 expansion method should you use? I understand the differences, but should you always use ES if you know that the source is in fact encoded that way or is PLIIx also ok for that? Also should you always use neo:6 with DTS and DTS-HD material or is PLIIx ok there also? I know that some content has flags to set this automagically, but I haven't ran into any, yet. I have been using PLIIx for all 2-channel and 5.1 Dolby off of TV which I assume is ok? I have been using neo:6 for DTS and DTS-HD MA etc. though I have noticed that neo:6 sounds nearly identical to what PLIIx provides. I read up on this in the manual and in the guides here, but could not find my answers. I don't think the AVR lets you select DD ES when the source is DTS, but lets you select neo:6 when the source is DD. Isn't there a DTS ES also? no option for that when the source is DTS as far as I could see, but I haven't tried to play any plain old 5.1 DTS material yet.
post #10931 of 11323
^^
It's okay to just set it to DD PLIIx and call it a day.
post #10932 of 11323
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
It's okay to just set it to DD PLIIx and call it a day.

Thanks. That is what I have generally done. If I happen to listen to a concert that is 2-channel then I mess with PLIIx Music. So do you personally just use DD PLIIx when you have a 5.1 DTS source? I think I read somewhere that PLIIx is superior to neo:6 it being an older encode/decode (not sure why it even exists except for legacy). I also recall reading that everything ES has is incorporated into PLIIx?
post #10933 of 11323
^^
Yes.
post #10934 of 11323
it might help to explain the various techs a bit:

- first off, it's important not to conflate the techs which are used for discrete channel encoding (like Dolby Digital 5.1, DTS-HD, etc.) with the techs that are used to "upmix" additional channels (like PLIIx or DTS Neo and now Audyssey DSX and others). The former are just "containers" for specific discrete channels of information whereas the latter are "post processing" that will create new channels that didn't exist before.

The latter are also generally signal agnostic, so there is no reason that DTS Neo would work better with a DTS encoded soundtrack (or the converse for PLIIx with something from Dolby Digital). So the choice of using PLIIx or DTS Neo to matrix the rear channels from a 5.1 track really has nothing to do with whether the track is Dolby or DTS encoded.

- DTS-ES and DD-EX are 6.1 formats, and are sort of "hybrids" in that they are discretely encoded as 5.1, but the extra discrete mono rear channel is mixed into the two surround channels and can be extracted with an EX/ES capable decoder. So they will play as a "normal" 5.1 track if you only have a 5.1 setup... but if you are running a 6.1/7.1 system and allow the receiver to detect the flag and trigger the EX/ES processing, it will extract that 6th channel and essentially become a 6.1 discrete mix.

If you have AFDM (auto flag detected mode) turned on, it will only upmix 5.1 tracks when a flag is detected. So 5.1 will play as 5.1, and a DD-EX or DTS-ES track will be detected and play as 6.1. That means that if you have a 7.1 system, the two back channels will be fed the same signal (i.e. dual mono in back) which is how 7.1 originally worked prior to PLIIx and other stereo extractions for back channels.

- PLII (and its variants) and DTS Neo on the other hand are simply "upmixing" systems that will create new channels that *aren't* discretely encoded. They can take a 2ch signal up to 5.1 (PLII), 6.1 (Neo) or 7.1 (PLIIx), or with a 5.1 signal can extract a rear channel(s). They are competitors, and very similar, so it's not surprising that you don't hear a difference. There is a difference though, and that is that DTS Neo is a 6.1 tech and thus will extract a mono rear channel, whereas PLIIx actually extracts stereo rear channels and thus will create "true" 7.1 out of a 5.1 mix.

Again, it doesn't really matter if the original 5.1 encode is a Dolby Digital or DTS track, it's just post processing operating on the extracted 5.1 PCM mix to create extra channels. This is distinct from ES/EX where you will only trigger, say, DTS-ES decoding when there is specifically a flag for a 6.1 DTS-ES track present. They all basically work on the same principle of stereo imaging -- once the soundtrack has been decoded, it will look at those two surrounds, and the more "in phase" the content is between the two side surrounds, the more it will be mixed into the back surround. It's the same idea as extracting a center channel image from stereo L/R.

.... so to wrap up, the bottom line is that you can simply use PLIIx for everything if you have a 7.1 system, because unlike ES/EX and DTS-Neo, it creates stereo back surrounds for a 'true' 7.1 effect. Even if you happen to run into a DTS-ES or Dolby Digital EX soundtrack (these are pretty rare anyway) what will happen is that the PLIIx processing will see the same directional cues that the ES/EX mix intended, and the 5.1 will be mixed up to 7.1 without any detriment vs. using the ES/EX decoder for 6.1 with mono rear channel.
post #10935 of 11323
... oh, and a postscript on the difference between PLIIx Music vs. Cinema modes for 5.1 > 7.1 upmix, since you seem interested.

With Cinema mode, anything that is extracted from the surrounds and sent to the back surrounds is subtracted from the side surrounds. This is because, presumably, with cinema content you want to maximize directionality. If something is mixed so that it is supposed to be right behind you, you want PLIIx to put it there.

With Music mode, you get similar extraction but without the subtraction from the side surrounds. So instead you get surrounds more "spread out" across the rear hemisphere. This prevents the problem of, for example, having a guitar that is mixed evenly into the two side surround channels "collapse" to the back and be directly behind your head, which would sound weird.

So "Music" mode should be thought of as making the 4 surrounds more "spread out" instead of "directional" and can be used even when there is non-music content, for example you may find it better watching a 5.1 sports broadcast because the crowd noise wraps around and "blends" more and thus you are less distracted by some guy who the mic picked up yelling over to the side or something.
post #10936 of 11323
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post


As noted this is a result of a recent firmware update to your DTV box so until DTV issues another update that resolves the issue you can either connect the HDMI directly to your TV with optical to AVR, connect component/optical from the box to the AVR, or set the DTV box to a fixed resolution (eg. 1080i).

I have tried turning native off on my DirecTv HR24 receiver and fixing the resolution. I have tried 720p and 1080i, but still get the HDMI handshake issue. Has anyone actually gotten this to work? Also, if I were to use component from the DirecTv receiver to the 1909 (along with optical audio), will the 1909 upconvert the SD signals from the HR24 using component input/HDMI output if I change back to Native On, or would I need to keep it set to Native Off with either 720p and/or 1080i resolutions selected?

I know this isn't the forum for this, but I'm just very frustrated with DirecTv's willingness to send out a firmware update that has obvious issues. This is the 2nd update in a row with this issue. At least the last time, they seemed to realize it relatively quickly and then resent out an updated update that fixed the issue. This is very frustrating.mad.gifmad.gif
post #10937 of 11323
^^
Yes, the 1909 can both upconvert and upscale the component video input.
post #10938 of 11323
And probably do it better than the box can...
post #10939 of 11323
I finally broke down last weekend and connected my HR24 component/optical to my 1909. I believe I didn't start to get a picture until I turned on "Convert" in the input settings for the DVR.

I think I've gotten used to the picture, but I was convinced the picture was a little fuzzier going component vs. HDMI.
post #10940 of 11323
^^
The "Video Convert" defaults to "ON" and indeed must be ON when going analog---> HDMI. Also, the DVR and/or TV is likely to do just as good of a job as the AVR so you may want to try setting the "i/P scaler" setting to OFF and let either the DVR or the TV do the upscaling.
post #10941 of 11323
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

... oh, and a postscript on the difference between PLIIx Music vs. Cinema modes for 5.1 > 7.1 upmix, since you seem interested.


With Cinema mode, anything that is extracted from the surrounds and sent to the back surrounds is subtracted from the side surrounds. This is because, presumably, with cinema content you want to maximize directionality. If something is mixed so that it is supposed to be right behind you, you want PLIIx to put it there.


With Music mode, you get similar extraction but without the subtraction from the side surrounds. So instead you get surrounds more "spread out" across the rear hemisphere. This prevents the problem of, for example, having a guitar that is mixed evenly into the two side surround channels "collapse" to the back and be directly behind your head, which would sound weird.


So "Music" mode should be thought of as making the 4 surrounds more "spread out" instead of "directional" and can be used even when there is non-music content, for example you may find it better watching a 5.1 sports broadcast because the crowd noise wraps around and "blends" more and thus you are less distracted by some guy who the mic picked up yelling over to the side or something.

Hey Batpig! Thanks for info and refresher. I knew most of this, but not the subtleties of cinema/music and a few other points. I guess I need a new AVR with the more advanced Audessey DSX processing? I will have to play with some of my DTS-ES and DD-EX media and see if the default 6.1 with somewhat discrete back channel sounds any better/worse with PLIIx. I think some of my older BDs and a few HDs have some of these. I also have some DVDs that have those. I am a collector of every version of Terminator 2 that has been released and I think I have all of the various versions with different soundtracks. I even have the DVD with the DTS track which used to be king until HD and BD came on the scene. Oh, I haven't broken down and purchased one of the imports of the HD that I can recall since I have both the BD versions. That movie happens to be a good one to show off differenced in audio tracks and various video quality.
post #10942 of 11323
Quote:
I guess I need a new AVR with the more advanced Audessey DSX processing?

only if you want to add "wide" or "height" channels. DSX isn't really relevant to the stuff I was describing, it was only there as an example of another type of "post processing", contrasted with encodes with discrete channels in the source.
post #10943 of 11323
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Quote:
I guess I need a new AVR with the more advanced Audessey DSX processing?
only if you want to add "wide" or "height" channels. DSX isn't really relevant to the stuff I was describing, it was only there as an example of another type of "post processing", contrasted with encodes with discrete channels in the source.

Well I will just have to do that. Build a 13.1 system with wide+height additional fronts and two additional surrounds. I assume that they make AVRs now that can produce additional back channels out of 7.1 AND also widen the front soundstage with height and width. 6 more speakers, the BOSS is going to love that. Is it possible to put 6 side surrounds in a HT these days so it can be just like the theater? I assume all those are the same channel(s) just replicated to multiple speakers?
post #10944 of 11323
Wondering if anyone can help me with this issue..I have an odd intermitent issue, that started happening this week. I have had the Denon 1909 receiver for over two years without any issues. Does this sound like a receiver issue, or can it be something else?

It seems that the receiver keeps lossing the signal.

Basic rundown of the setup:
Denon 1909 Reciever. I have a Direct HD reciever hooked up to it via a HDMI cable(monoprice brand), and then hooked up to a 42" Pany Plasma via a HDMI cable. The Direct TV conection is the only only one that is giving me issues.

Sometimes if I turn everything on, I dont get any picture or sound. Just a black screen and the TV displays " no signal". Other times I might only get sound, but no picture. But if I swich to a different input on the reciever, and then switch back to the DirecTV input, it works fine...UNTIL I switch channels on the DirecTV reciever and then it does the same thing. The only thing that cures it is if I click on a different input on the AVR 1909 reicever, and then click back. Does that sound like a reciever issue, or can it be something else? All other inputs work fine as far as I know, just the input that I am using for the DirecTV receiver.
post #10945 of 11323
^^
It's most likely a DTV issue. Many other DTV owners have posted in other threads that a recent firmware update to the DTV box screwed it up. You can either bypass the AVR and connect the HDMI directly to the TV with optical to the AVR or simply wait for DTV to issue another firmware update for your box. frown.gif
post #10946 of 11323
I am having a problem with my 1909. When I turn on the tv and amp with my Harmony One, I get TV but get sound for less than a second. After manually turning the amp off and then back on, the sound is fine. I have reloaded the Harmony with the correct settings, but got no joy.
post #10947 of 11323
^^
Try programming in a longer delay for the TV to fully power ON before powering on the AVR.
post #10948 of 11323
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post

Well I will just have to do that. Build a 13.1 system with wide+height additional fronts and two additional surrounds. I assume that they make AVRs now that can produce additional back channels out of 7.1 AND also widen the front soundstage with height and width. 6 more speakers, the BOSS is going to love that. Is it possible to put 6 side surrounds in a HT these days so it can be just like the theater? I assume all those are the same channel(s) just replicated to multiple speakers?

The max discrete channel processing available currently is 11 channels. The Denon 4311ci would be the logical choice as it's the only processor in the world currently that has XT32 calibration and 11ch capability.

In movie theaters (and mixing rooms) the surrounds are a line array of monopole speakers, all firing with the same signal. Most movie theaters are 5.1 with the surrounds lining each side wall all producing the two (L/R) surround channels. Some movie theaters have a line of speakers on the back wall and they tend to be just 6.1 (with the back surround playing a mono signal). I'm sure there are some theaters that are "true" 7.1 but they are rare, and with the line array of speakers in the back even the mono rear channel should be plenty enveloping.

At home, multiple side surrounds are only really needed if you have a deep room with multiple rows of seats. This is something that theaters deal with but most home enviroments don't. That's why they have dipole/bipole side surround speakers, to create that envelopment effect of the array of side surround speakers with only one speaker. You certainly CAN run dual side surrounds (2 on each side) but they will play the same SR/SL signal.
post #10949 of 11323
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The max discrete channel processing available currently is 11 channels. The Denon 4311ci would be the logical choice as it's the only processor in the world currently that has XT32 calibration and 11ch capability.
In movie theaters (and mixing rooms) the surrounds are a line array of monopole speakers, all firing with the same signal. Most movie theaters are 5.1 with the surrounds lining each side wall all producing the two (L/R) surround channels. Some movie theaters have a line of speakers on the back wall and they tend to be just 6.1 (with the back surround playing a mono signal). I'm sure there are some theaters that are "true" 7.1 but they are rare, and with the line array of speakers in the back even the mono rear channel should be plenty enveloping.
At home, multiple side surrounds are only really needed if you have a deep room with multiple rows of seats. This is something that theaters deal with but most home enviroments don't. That's why they have dipole/bipole side surround speakers, to create that envelopment effect of the array of side surround speakers with only one speaker. You certainly CAN run dual side surrounds (2 on each side) but they will play the same SR/SL signal.

Nice. Yes I have been doing some research and found out what you just posted. According to the Aud. site the A100 also has XT32 and DSX, but must be only 9.1/2? So the 4311ci must be able to do 6 front l/r (main, height and width), center, sub (I assume x2 since it is actually 11.2?), side surrounds and surround backs, correct?

I seriously don't need the extra fronts, not really the space to do it based on the diagrams. Nice to know my home set-up might be actually better than most theaters. My se-up certainly sounds better to me than the last few movies we have gone to. Only main difference I have noted is the increased bass that the theaters have, but it has to fill a big room. I'm sure my new def. tech sub will slam good enough for what I need. The last movie we went to, Avengers, at older recently re-done theater down the street from our new house had pretty bad dialogue. I'm sure it is just mis-calibrated. I almost never have issues hearing dialogue despite my current crappy center. One exception is a couple ABC shows that constantly have way too much music (like in bar scenes) that drown out everything else. An example is Revenge. I know it is the show, because just about any movie I watch on BD, HD, or even On Demand in plain old DD5.1 or PLII I have no problem hearing dialogue. However with TV shows that issue is commonplace. I have tried reducing the input by 10db, but with Revenge it made it worse not better. I will have to try again with the new set-up and also after the new sub and center are in place and see if it helps.
post #10950 of 11323
Quote:
According to the Aud. site the A100 also has XT32 and DSX, but must be only 9.1/2?

the A100 is the same thing as the 4311, it's just got fancier cosmetics as it was branded as the "100th anniversary" model. There is absolutely no difference between the two in terms of processing.

both are 11.1 receivers, although they have SubEQ HT which allows them to properly calibrate dual subs (so if you want to call them "11.2" nobody will really argue with you wink.gif)
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