*Official* Denon AVR 1909/789 Thread - Page 111

Can anybody that owns this or knows a lot about it, tell me why I should buy this over the Yamaha V863. I've narrowed it down to these two but just can't make up my mind. It's something that I'm going to have to be happy with for a very long time so I want to make sure. Thanks

My setup:
52xbr6
Sony s350
XBOX 360
Wii
HD Satellite Box
Klipsch Reference 5.1

Audyssey

Audyssey

Audyssey was the main reason I was leaning towards Denon but didn't know if it was that big of a difference. Can someone explain Top-Art to me and why I would want it. And will I notice much of a difference with the Yamaha using better DAC's.

they are both great products and will both sound great, just pick the one with the features you want. Most of that stuff (Top-Art, DDSC, DAC's) is marketing babble. The 863 has a little more future expandibility with full pre-outs on all channels, in case you envision adding beefy external amps at some point, but other than that most folks here would feel the Audyssey features are the trump card for Denon.

Yamaha makes a great product, I don't think you will be disappointed either way.

On a side note, the 2309/889 is probably more directly comparable to the 863. The 1909/789 is probably more akin to the 663 in Yamaha's food chain.

Fronts were set to large (they are capable of being large with two 8" drivers in a floorstanding ported design F3 is about 30Hz.) with surrounds and surround backs set as small. All are timbre matched speakers and all are DIY using the same drivers. Crossovers were set to 80Hz on the small speakers and 80Hz on the sub.

I just bought a new sofa and love seat so I need to redo the set up again tonight. I'll run it again and see if it makes any difference. If it doesnt, and you dont have any alternatives to try, I'll just trim down the surrounds a bit. Overall, I'm very happy with the receiver so far I just need to tweak it to my preferences a bit.

Well I work for a retailer and yamaha's accomodation is better so price wise the 1909 and 863 are identical which is why I was comparing those two, i was looking at the 2309 but would run me about 125 extra which would push me a little over budget. Thanks for the info!!

I've got the Klipsch Reference RF-3II (5.1) speakers and the Sony S350 hooked into my Denon 2309 and it sounds great. Highly recommend. The number of HDMI inputs and few other minor things is the reason I didn't go for the 1909 model - but I had considered it right up to the end.

A strike against AUDYSSEY?????????

Yes, how do you think I was able to catch the false information you had been posting about MCACC? ... and the detailed information I posted about Audyssey? ... and NOW, some more informaton about Audyssey which contradicts your latest post as well:


No, not according to Audyssey's FAQ, which says MultEQ uses Finite Impulse Response (FIR) filters for equalization that use several hundred coefficients to achieve much higher resolution in the frequency domain than traditional EQ bands. And it states that manual mode is a traditional equalizer that does not use the MultEQ filters or measurement process at all. So according to that info from the FAQ, the Audyssey curve MultiEQ filters with their several hundred coefficients designed for high resolution of room reflections are NOT USED at all in manual mode and you are left with only standard equalizer bands.


Once you turn off Audyssey EQ, you lose all Audyssey filters, as shown from the FAQ as I just quoted. Those MultiEQ FIR filters are not used in manual mode, so they cannot be the starting point for a simple 9 band traditional EQ adjustment and the inprecise adjustment a basic 9 band traditional EQ allows, which is all you're left with for EQ after you switch to manual mode. I'm making the assumption that the official Audyssey FAQ is correct of course in that manual mode does not use the MultEQ filters. Not sure what Audyssey was thinking.


I reread it, and not sure how to make it any more clear. The gist of it is that I've not seen anything to indicate that MCACC disables the filters for calibration that address room reflections when you elect to customize the EQ manually, unlike Audyssey, as I have shown based on info from the official Audyssey FAQ. So thumbs up for MCACC here.

I remember when we finally got 5.1 and lossless, Room EQ was left at the top of the Audio Holy Grail list. And this fellow is clamoring for just the opposite. He ought to just get an outboard equalizer. I'm sure people pull them out of their attics and put them on eBay all the time.

Audyssey just confirmed in the Audyssey thread what I had stated above about Audyssey manual EQ:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95421&page=925

Audyssey:

I already have a few. I've already mentioned these in other posts regarding this Audyssey limitation, so you aren't providing anything new. But unfortunately, try hooking those up to a receiver to EQ your Blue-ray. None of my EQ's have HDMI. LOL

I got my 789 from Amazon yesterday, and it too came double-boxed, but with paper padding. More disturbing was that the Denon box had been opened and "sealed" again without tape by tucking the panels under one another. No pieces were missing, and nothing appeared to have been used, or even removed from the box; the contents seemed factory-fresh to me, and the receiver serial number matched the box. I haven't had the chance to set it up, but I expect it will be all right. I've never received an opened item like this from Amazon, though. How about you guys? Also, I recently ordered two Blu-Ray disks from Amazon, and they "forgot" to ship one of them but called my order "complete". After an email, they're shipping it now.

From a post by Chris (Audyssey) -

"First, please note that copying the Audyssey filter to the Manual EQ curve turns off Audyssey processing. We do not support Manual EQ as it is a simple parametric equalizer that does not provide any of the room EQ benefits that MultEQ does. Furthermore, Dynamic EQ can not run if you have Manual EQ selected. Also, the "copy" is very rough: the MultEQ filter has several hundred points of control and you end up squeezing them into 9 bands of parametric. Not very precise..."


Over and out - we'll talk after you've continued you studies.

Thanks again for confirming (with Audyssey's quote) what I had just posted in my last couple posts. Manual mode is NOT a starting point of the Audyssey curve, it is at best a very LIMITED & ROUGH likeness as Audyssey stated above, and not even with any time domain correction, so it would be a HUGE stretch to say that manual mode starts with your Audyssey curve as you originally stated. Manual mode is a completely different ballgame right from the start, far more limited than what you had left behind with Audyssey when you switched to manual. You are not starting where you left off when you switch to manual. It's a big step back. Here is a response I got from Audyssey in the other thread that confirmed my research, and my response to Audyssey following it.

Audyssey's Response:
My response to Audyssey: That is exactly what I gathered from the FAQ. I had a couple different people in the Denon thread say that the Audyssey curve could be the starting point for your manual EQ, but after my research, I found that those MultiEQ FIR filters are NOT used in manual mode at all, so they cannot possibly be the starting point for a simple 9 band traditional EQ adjustment and the inprecise non-time-domain adjustment a basic 9 band traditional EQ allows, which is all you're left with for EQ after you switch to manual. Manual mode is far inferior. Thanks for confirming that. I hope to see a custom EQ curve in the future that rides on top of Audyssey EQ's calibrated curve in a <$1000 receiver. I hate to give up my Audyssey filters just to make some minor EQ tweaks and would rather not resort to the tricks (with sub gain, etc) that others resort to.

------------------
By the way Gary, you are one of those people I was referring to.

I'm glad I researched this on my own, read the FAQ, and confirmed this with Audyssey directly rather than relying on misinformation I had gotten from Gary in this thread, not to mention the inaccurate information Gary had posted about MCACC.

Rex, thank you for clarifying that EQ tweaks are limited with Audyssey. I think that is of little importance to most on this thread, as we are enjoying the impressively better SQ that it does provide without tweaks. Until now I have been consistently impressed with how cordial and informative most posts to the Denon AVR threads are. What I'm seeing this particular "discussion" degrade into is more like nitpicking oneupmanship.
Based on your posts you seem to be long on theory and short on experience on this topic. May I suggest that you
1. Start your own thread if you cannot find a thread on EQ system comparisons on this or other forums.
or
2. Actually GET AN AVR (or two) w/ one of these systems, do some listening and tell us something we don't know, like how does MCACC compare with Audyssey in the real world.

Anyone have a 1909 paired with a DVDO Edge video processor? I am having issues with lossless audio with this combination.

I've been through a lot of this thread and mined Google as well, but can't quite get a firm answer to this question:

Do Denon's in general, and the AVR789/1909 or AVR788/1908 in specific, have discrete remote codes for power on/off and input device selection? In particular, I'd be looking to do this via a URC MX-850 remote.

(I'm trying to find a receiver to simplify the parent's AV system, and I'd need these discrete codes at a minimum - and probably others I can't remember from when I last saw the remote last December - to really dial it in for them.)

Many thanks! (And any suggestions on where to buy this unit besides the normal Google and Pricegrabber links would be appreciated as well!)

You are welcome. More accurately, you might say EQ tweaks are actually not even possible with Audyssey, because you lose ALL Audyssey filters if you use manual EQ, not just Dynamic EQ and Volume, but ALL Audyssey filters. But thanks, I like to get the facts out there, and surely Denon users would be interested. It might even cause some to rethink customizing EQ if they had ever considered it (which seems likely from some of the feedback about Audyssey not getting it right - regardless of where the "fault" may really lie.)


Nothing wrong with that. But I would think you and others would like to hear some new info relating to the technology. As I said earlier, I was through comparing to MCACC, but someone else brought the MCACC comparison back up. One thing you can be sure to get from me is an fair unbiased and objective comparison, because I am currently a Sony ES owner. I am not a fanboy of Pioneer, Denon, or Audyssey. I do not own or have ever owned any MCACC or Audyssey equipped receivers, so I'm open to any facts on those systems and provide objective feedback based on what I've learned.


You are correct. I'm not sure why someone would feel a need to respond with such arrogance and cynicism, not just to me, but to others as well. But when someone behaves that way, it's a satisfying feeling to put them in their place.


Quite the opposite. I'm into the facts and real world results, that's how my first comparison started about what happens when you try to customize Audyssey vs MCACC. It was others that introduced "theories" & "myths", which I have debunked (see my recent posts.)


I'm beyond that now. I have now learned everything I really "need" to know, and now it's just a matter of understanding how the time domain correction is addressed at a very technical level (beyond just saying it's because of the FIR filters & convolution,) and I don't really "need" to know that, because it's not really going to change anything for me, but I'm just curious how this is done (abeit, not to the point that they need to give away any trade secrets, just something better than I've found on the topic to this point, in the FAQ, etc.)


I think I've told a lot of people something they don't know with my original Audyssey/MCACC comparison, the facts about MCACC vs what had previously been posted here, and as can be seen by my rebuttals of false and misleading information that had been posted by someone else. And really, I don't care to do direct comparisons at this point in this thread. But yes, I would like to compare both side by side on my own, just as CNET did when they reached their conclusion, unfortunately, even if Audyssey gave better results than MCACC with auto room correction, any Audyssey equipped receiver would lose that advantage once the EQ is customized. So I let Audyssey know I would like to see a custom EQ curve that can ride on top of the Audyssey calibration MultiEQ curve without giving up Audysssey's filters, and to provide this in a sub-$1000 receiver.

Happy listening!

If you check the pdf linked to earlier in this page (http://home.tampabay.rr.com/latino/p...9_IR_Codes.pdf) it appears that yes there are discrete codes for Power on and power off as well as quick input 1-3. I've no idea how to convert this format into something usable though like linked to in that other thread.

Good grief then, is this finally over? Would it be okay if we Denon owners actually get back to helping those who need assistance with their AVRs? This has been a painful week on a topic better left for the "Official" Audyssey thread.


Perhaps we should tackle religion and politics next...

I do but do not have a lossless source connected. Are you decoding in the player or AVR?

I think it was until you just added your 2 cents. Of course, it would have been over with my first post where I stated why I chose Pioneer over Denon if it wasn't for the responses I got giving misinformation about the system, so I felt obligated to at least get the facts out there rather than ignoring what I knew was false. I know there are others that read these forums in their research before buying a new receiver. They should make their choices on facts. If I had read and believed the comments from another poster in this forum regarding MCACC, I would have thought it sucked and never considered it. And I would have spent my hard-earned money on a receiver that wasn't the best choice for me based on that wrong information. Are you suggesting I should have just let those comments be without rebuttal?


Do you think that is the only purpose of this thread? To help people needing assistance with their receivers? That is a very narrow mindset. Prospective buyers have a lot at stake here as well, and various other things related to the Denon receivers.


Except that I had narrowed my choice between Pioneer and Denon, and was responding back to the Denon users who provided me some of the detail to help make that decision. Thanks batpig and Audyssey (in the Audyssey thread.)

My feeling is that if you don't want to read something, or it is causing you pain as you put it, simply ignore it.

Anyway, if you have no more to say on the subject, I am done. But I will monitor this thread for a while to verify that no one else has any questions about it.

Merry Christmas.

Whatever happened to the Ignore Poster button on AVS?

I'd contact amazon, unless you paid for an open-box item.

Also you might check to see if the registration number has already been recorded with Denon.

Dana

Incase someone else was having a similar problem, here is a solution: Apparently powerdvd doesn't recognize the HDCP compliant repeater in the Denon 1909. However, arcsoft TMT does and with the new Xonar HDAV 1.3 card in the PC, I can bistream Dolby TruHD, DTS HD MA and the other codecs from my PC. Am a happy camper now! Also I can play my games in full 192khz 24bit 7.1 LPCM

Well, MPCM has mixed up channels and no center. TrueHD and DTS-MA get no signal to the AVR at all. So basically, if a Bluray movie doesn't contain a second track I get no sound. DD works fine. I never had this issue until I added the Edge. I'm just wondering if someone else with both units can confirm it is infact an issue between both. If not, then my Edge is faulty.