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DVDO EDGE !! - Page 232

post #6931 of 7061
Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

Make sure you have NOT enabled frame locking and that your display DOES support 24p eg 48hz, 96Hz, 120Hz, 240Hz etc refresh rates. TBH if I were you I'd use 1080p60 as output for a 1080i60 source, not 1080p24.

That being said are you positive the source is OK? Have you ever seen your copy playing fine on anything? Are you sure your friend isn't watching it on some odd projector or something else?
Authoring in 1080i60 something and claiming to be the 'best quality release' sounds more than suspicious to me...

I'm sure I disabled frame locking when I set Edge output to be explicit 1080p24 or 1080p60.

The TV supports 24p from most Blurays just fine.

I initially used 1080p60 output on the Oppo direct to TV, which is what alerted me to an issue. I get the same issue when using the Edge to output 1080p60 from the Oppo.

I am not sure the source is okay. Authoring a movie in 1080i60 is dodgy at best and I'm surprised it was done this way for the Bluray. However, ignoring the display issue, the Japanese Bluray has DTS-HD MA audio and AVC video that has greater detail and shadow than the other Bluray editions. I suspect Sleepy Hollow was originally encoded for HD-DVD with substantial filtering and this re-tasked to most Bluray editions. The Japanese Bluray has obviously been handled differently.

Maybe I am just overly sensitive to 3:2 pulldown judder as I am used to smooth 50i from PAL land and now smooth 24p, so watching 1080p60 pulldown is something of a shock in comparison.

I was mainly curious why the Edge couldn't return a smooth 1080p24 as the source would have to be 3:2 pulldown encoded.
post #6932 of 7061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

PC sends PC level output at 60.00Hz via HDMI to the same display used for Oppo/the Edge? I'd expect (without knowing specifics) a modern graphics card to have a lot more processing power and possibly smooth things out.

How about Lumagen?

Any chance to rip a short representative clip for us to try out?

The Oppo/Edge is connected to a Sony 40EX500, whilst the PC is connected to a Sony 32EX500. Both displays are similar apart from the size and have Cinema Drive disabled.

It is quite possible that the PC is processing the material better, although I would have expected the Edge to be equivalent. I don't have IVTC enabled in the graphics card, so it was just doing deinterlacing to 60Hz.

I only have the Edge.
post #6933 of 7061
If you're unduly sensitive to 3:2 judder then any NTSC DVD would have the same effect, not just this BD. I have a few 1080i60 BDs (not this one) and there's nothing more unusual than the norm and I come from PAL land.

I was really after the 60:00 Hz from PC (the Edge would tell you if you connect it up) as opposed to 59.94 from a BDP as the slight change in framerate could open up the opportunity for smoothing.

The observation that Oppo doing 60p (59.94p) is juddery and irregular and PC doing 60p is 'almost completely' smooth on a similar screen does suggest there is a difference in processing. It follows that you can't expect a good result from IVTC with this BD. At least find another 1080i60 BD where there aren't bad edits (removing this as a confounding variable) and you see little/no difference between Oppo and PC and then try IVTC with the Edge before drawing further conclusions.
post #6934 of 7061
Ok I have a question.

I have a Panasonic ST50 with a DVDO Edge and a PS3.

Each of these has an option for RGB Full (0-255) or RGB Limited (16-235).

It seems changing from Standard (16-235) to Nonstandard on my TV does nothing.

PS3 has an RGB Full (0-255) and RGB Limited (16-235). I notice that when I choose RGB full that the picture overall looks a tad darker. I used to remember changing from Nonstandard to Standard on my ST50 made this balance out so RGB Full and RGB Limited looked the same as long as I chose the same option on my TV.

I am not sure if the DVDO Edge is bypassing the TV controls because changing the settings on the TV is doing nothing. The DVDO Edge has an option for Output Color Space for (Auto, RGB, YCbCr 422, and YCbCr 444) and an Output Video Leve (lAuto, Video (16-235) and Computer (0-255)).

I am not sure what settings I should be using for the best overall picture. Any input?

Thanks guys!
post #6935 of 7061
The easiest thing to do in your Edge is to keep the Output Level at Auto. Generally, it is almost always best to use Video for movies and TV shows. Movies sometimes like having the ability for showing a blacker than black, which is only available is you use the standard video level of 16-235. I tried using Computer for games, but didn't think it actually added much.
post #6936 of 7061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrax View Post

The easiest thing to do in your Edge is to keep the Output Level at Auto. Generally, it is almost always best to use Video for movies and TV shows. Movies sometimes like having the ability for showing a blacker than black, which is only available is you use the standard video level of 16-235. I tried using Computer for games, but didn't think it actually added much.

Thanks for the reply. So the best thing would be to leave it at Auto? I just get confused since both the PS3 and TV also have settings for RGB Full, but changing from RGB Full to Limited on the TV (after changing it on PS3 to FULL) makes no difference. It used to make a difference before the DVDO Edge. Beforehand, it didn't matter if I set the PS3 to RGB Full or Limited as long as I set the same setting on the TV. They both would look the same as long as the settings matched. That doesn't seem to be the case when the DVDO Edge is connected.
post #6937 of 7061
Just do a search on 'ps3 blacker than black' and there are loads of threads on it here and elsewhere. Apparently it's better to use YCbCr unless equipment downstream can't accept it. There's a Super White setting too to make things more complicated.

IIRC the Edge internally does processing in YCbCr 422.

What colorspace is best for the TV for the incoming input depends on the particular model. Ask in the Panny TV thread.
post #6938 of 7061
Frannie-
The nice thing about setting the Edge's output level to Auto is that the Edge 'asks' the display device what it wants and then provides it (converting the input if necessary). That two way communication is (I think) the good only thing about HDMI handshaking. The reason for not using Auto settings is if the conversation between the display and the Edge ends up with the Edge doing the wrong thing.

You can look at the Edge Information (my remote has an Info button - I assume yours does as well) and see what the input settings and output settings are while you're sending video from your PS3 to your TV. If you think that the output is wrong when you use 'Auto', then you need to worry about these things. That is where using Kilian's advice about asking in the Panasonic thread comes in handy.
post #6939 of 7061
Auto should work in most if not every case, but to me auto always gives the best option (not necessarily correct or wrong) is only an assumption. There's no harm at least finding out what's the best signal type for a display from someone who has taken the effort to test it in detail (D-Nice used to do this on Pioneer and Panasonic plasmas). If auto gives the best, by the same logic, then just use auto on the PS3 too and it should all be taken care of without having to worry about manual settings (BTW the Edge tells my AVR to use YCbCr: presumably this is EDID setting since you can't change it on AVRs).biggrin.gif
post #6940 of 7061
Thanks for all your input guys! I really do appreciate it. I will stick to Auto. smile.gif
post #6941 of 7061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

... There's no harm at least finding out what's the best signal type for a display from someone who has taken the effort to test it in detail (D-Nice used to do this on Pioneer and Panasonic plasmas).
Agreed! Auto is only as good as the HDMI handshake and the EDID interpretation. It took them many, many years to get all the kinks worked out of that nightmare, and I doubt they got every one fixed. I guess I was trying to say if Auto works, go with it. I tried every possible combination of the settings to find the ones that worked best and I found that Auto and I agreed on every single 'best' one. In support of the 'try everything' approach, when I found that I could only use 'Off' for the Deep Color output (instead of being able to set it to 36-bit), I realized that I needed to replace my old HDMI cable. So I also recommend trying everything.
post #6942 of 7061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

If you're unduly sensitive to 3:2 judder then any NTSC DVD would have the same effect, not just this BD. I have a few 1080i60 BDs (not this one) and there's nothing more unusual than the norm and I come from PAL land.

I was really after the 60:00 Hz from PC (the Edge would tell you if you connect it up) as opposed to 59.94 from a BDP as the slight change in framerate could open up the opportunity for smoothing.

The observation that Oppo doing 60p (59.94p) is juddery and irregular and PC doing 60p is 'almost completely' smooth on a similar screen does suggest there is a difference in processing. It follows that you can't expect a good result from IVTC with this BD. At least find another 1080i60 BD where there aren't bad edits (removing this as a confounding variable) and you see little/no difference between Oppo and PC and then try IVTC with the Edge before drawing further conclusions.

I may have been unduly sensitive to pulldown judder, because it's been a long time since I saw it: for NTSC DVD I use an Oppo 83 with its inbuilt ABT2010 to perform IVTC and PAL material is smooth regardless, so I haven't experienced it much recently. I don't watch many if any Bluray titles that are 1080i60, so perhaps this is my first experience of what it is like.

I really thought the Edge would be able to produce a nice smooth 1080p24 from this 1080i60 material and was surprised that it didn't.

1080i60 is sufficiently rare that I"m not going to waste more time researching it further. If I get the opportunity to borrow the Sleepy Hollow disc again, I think I will try performing an IVTC and recode to see if it works any better, but really I have too much other material to watch.

The moral of this exercise is perhaps that studios should never release a film as 1080i60: it's unconscionable and unnecessary; at least apply some horsepower to it and do a decent IVTC before encoding (it's much better performed at the source than in underpowered consumer equipment).
post #6943 of 7061
If i set my cable box to native and switching from 1080i channels to 720p. the channel change flickers. If I change the cable box to 1080i changing channels is smooth and does not flicker. Why is this? I have my cable box going through the dvdo edge.
post #6944 of 7061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toepepper View Post

If i set my cable box to native and switching from 1080i channels to 720p. the channel change flickers. If I change the cable box to 1080i changing channels is smooth and does not flicker. Why is this? I have my cable box going through the dvdo edge.

The DVDO needs to resync with the new resolution, hence why it flickers.
post #6945 of 7061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toepepper View Post

If i set my cable box to native and switching from 1080i channels to 720p. the channel change flickers. If I change the cable box to 1080i changing channels is smooth and does not flicker. Why is this? I have my cable box going through the dvdo edge.

because when a sync (something receiving a signal) gets a signal with a different resolution than what it had before, the hdmi handshake has to be redone. when the cable box is set to a certain static resolution, it scales the content internally and the sync never sees anything but the one resolution and therefore the handshake never gets interrupted.

EDIT: damn, i didn't type fast enough
post #6946 of 7061
thanks for the quick replies. Do you suggest I leave it on native? When i set it to 1080i I could not see any difference in picture quality between the 1080i channels and 720p. Are my eyes that bad that i can't tell the difference?
post #6947 of 7061
My Edge's power supply seems to give problem again. Now it would turn itself to red color mode (the LED at the right corner) out of the sudden and having black screen. I need to turn it off and on again to get it work. Initially it didn't appear frequently, now it can only last for about few mins before giving black screen again. What's the cheapest way to fix this problem?
By the way, what's the difference between the 101 and green version?
post #6948 of 7061
A while ago I bought an Edge 101 off of a forum member (thanks pilot20!). The unit has been quietly doing well what I bought it to do, fix the overscan on my HD CRT TV. However, I've recently run into an issue. It doesn't seem to pass 176.4kHz PCM. My Sony BDP-S370 can play SACDs, but my receiver only supports PCM, not DSD. Setting the Sony to output PCM, it converts the DSD to 176.4kHz PCM. With the Sony connected through the Edge, I get no sound. HDMI direct to the receiver, I get sound. I'm using the dedicated HDMI Audio output of the Edge, and haven't had any issues until this. Luckily, my primary SACD player is connected direct via 6ch analog to my receiver, so this really us just more of an academic issue, but I didn't see it mentioned anywhere else in this thread, and my be important for the one other person with this setup. tongue.gif
post #6949 of 7061
I can assure you my Edge (the original model, dunno what 101 is) does pass PCM 176.4kHz and 192kHz in MCH from the Sony S770 and other players to different AVRs. smile.gif
post #6950 of 7061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

I can assure you my Edge (the original model, dunno what 101 is) does pass PCM 176.4kHz and 192kHz in MCH from the Sony S770 and other players to different AVRs. smile.gif

Hmm, I just got my new (new to me anyway) Yamaha RX-V661, so I'll try with that. It's possible that my older Onkyo HT-R640 was the problem. I know for sure it could only do 2ch 176.4kHz, so perhaps it didn't properly report it's capabilities.

The 101 is the model number for the original edge.
post #6951 of 7061
It could be the old AVR: I had thought of that but you said HDMI direct to AVR you got sound (though you didn't say 2CH or MCH: that would be relevant to know) and if the Onkyo supports 2CH 176.4kHz I'd expect the Edge to pass 2CH at least.

The other thing is, with my Onkyo 818 at least it sometimes would not lock on the audio from the Edge and I have to reboot it to get it to work. Player direct to Onkyo is usually fine.
post #6952 of 7061
Yeah, the Onkyo only supports 176.4kHz and 192kHz in 2ch. However, with the unit connected directly, playing either the mch or 2ch layers, I always got 2ch. With the DVDO in the chain, I got nothing when playing either layer. I still haven't got around to getting the receiver plumed in yet, so that'll be on the todo list for tonight.
post #6953 of 7061
I have a question regarding the DVDO Edge and Blu-ray playback via the PS3.

The PS3 has an option for 24p to be On/Off/Automatic.

The TV also has a setting for 24p direct in = 48hz or 60hz. 48hz always has a flicker so I don't believe this is the best option.

It is my understanding that the TV will automatically convert 24p to 60hz because the TV (Panasonic ST50) is unable to display 24p natively. Is this correct?

Should I set the 24p setting on my PS3 to ON and let the DVDO Edge handle the conversion? Is this how it works?

(PS3 24p option ON/Auto)
PS3 sends 24p -> DVDO EDGE converts 24p to 60hz and sends it to the tv-> TV gets 1080p60.

(PS3 24p option OFF)
PS3 sends 60fps -> DVDO EDGE sends this same signal to TV -> TV gets 1080p60.

I am somewhat confused on how it works and what settings should be used to minimize judder.

Thanks guys!
post #6954 of 7061
48Hz (doubling 24 to 48) is considered native 24p support. No display outputs at 24Hz. Some later or more expensive models of Panny plasmas do 96Hz (4x24) because 48Hz causes flicker to many people.

Telecine (24 to 60) is very straight forward so it doesn't matter which device does it.
post #6955 of 7061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

48Hz (doubling 24 to 48) is considered native 24p support. No display outputs at 24Hz. Some later or more expensive models of Panny plasmas do 96Hz (4x24) because 48Hz causes flicker to many people.

Telecine (24 to 60) is very straight forward so it doesn't matter which device does it.

Thanks for the response! I have one question that I posted elsewhere, but I have not received a response. I am going to send you a PM as I do not want to derail this thread.

Thanks again!
post #6956 of 7061
So, I ran a few tests with my new Yamaha RX-V661 (which supports both MPCM at 176.4kHz and DSD), with some interesting results.

First, I tried BDP-S370->(HDMI)->RX-V661->(HDMI)->TV
Everything worked just fine. Video worked (I'll get to that in a second), 6ch 176.4kHz, and 6ch DSD

Next, BDP-S370->(HDMI)->Edge->(Audio HDMI)->RX-V661
Edge->(Video HDMI)->TV

When the Sony was set to DSD, a couple things happened. First, the Edge couldn't lock on to the input colorspace, constantly jumping between YCbCr422 and YCbCr444. The input audio showed "HDMI (LPCM, 6xKHz)". The Yamaha showed no input audio.
When the Sony was set to PCM, the Edge audio source shows "HDMI (LPCM, 6x176.4KHz)", the Yamaha indicates it's receiving a 6 channel MPCM signal at 176.4kHz, but I get absolutely no audio.

The guys at DVDO are engineers and should know this... it's "kHz", not "KHz"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_prefix#List_of_prefixes

I'm not sure what meaning unit Kelvin/second has in the audio world.
post #6957 of 7061
Quote:
Originally Posted by oryan_dunn View Post

With the DVDO in the chain, I got nothing when playing either layer.

Nothing you have wrote comes as a surprise to me. I have never been able to get audio to pass through the Duo either. With both DVD-A and SACD the player shows the proper output, the Duo displays the correct input and output and the receiver shows it is receiving the correct signal. But the end result is no sound. I ended up running the player to a HDMI splitter with one of the splitter's output going to the Duo and the other output connected to an unused input of the receiver. Never a problem since.
post #6958 of 7061
Quote:
Originally Posted by oryan_dunn View Post

When the Sony was set to DSD, a couple things happened. First, the Edge couldn't lock on to the input colorspace, constantly jumping between YCbCr422 and YCbCr444. The input audio showed "HDMI (LPCM, 6xKHz)". The Yamaha showed no input audio.
When the Sony was set to PCM, the Edge audio source shows "HDMI (LPCM, 6x176.4KHz)", the Yamaha indicates it's receiving a 6 channel MPCM signal at 176.4kHz, but I get absolutely no audio.

DSD: The Edge never supported DSD.

PCM: If not already, try rebooting the AVR while leaving the player and Edge on.

It works on my Onkyo, Denon and Arcam AVRs.
post #6959 of 7061
Ignore this
post #6960 of 7061
What I learned today

Ran into an interesting situation with my Edge. I turned on Deep Color Input (Advanced settings menu) and everything seemed to be working fine. Watched Blu-Rays, HDTV, and even streamed videos via my Roku worked without a problem. Then I tried to watch a DVD via my Panasonic DMP-BDT210 blu-ray player - and it was a disaster. Several times a minute I would get video drop outs, and what seemed like a re-sync.. For almost a day I was sure the problem was the DVD decoder in the blu-ray player and was at the point of buying a new one. But then I went through my notes and found that I had turned on Deep Color Input on the Edge in January. When I turned that off, my problems went away.

Hopefully this will save others from fretting over the need to replace a perfectly fine component.
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