CS1 vs CS2 (Color Space 1 vs Color Space 2) Pioneer, differences, Pictures?

I don't know if these screenshots were taken using C1 and C2, but in any case I think they offer a fairly accurate portrayal of the kind of difference you could expect to see.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...0&postcount=18

I'd say it's a difference that is quite noticeable when A-B'ing the two, but I wouldn't say they are quite as drastic as the color differences that Tom referenced to.

What are you talking about... Will smith just had a bad sunburn... And overly fake (and noticeable) pores, as well as other stuff. CS2 offers much more accurate colors, but some people (Ken Ross) think that CS1 looks more lifelike. Personally, I like CS2

Yeah, I definitely like CS2 better than CS1. Ken Ross has his own valid opinion, so I say, whichever one looks better TO YOU, then go with it!

That's odd. My 6020 I presume is in C1 and I have that Blu-ray but the image looks nothing that 2nd shot.

Out of the box images? I will likely be able to post pictures of my calibrated image on Pure with CS1 and CS2. I'll try to do that soon for you.

Errors in color accuracy are especially noticeable when directly compared with a reference. Without a reference to compare it against--as in these photos--one may not even realize how far off the color is.

Wow! If the top picture is CS1, I think I would prefer it. But it would be great to see the A and B comparison with other movies, preferably at least one set with an intentionally dark scene.

The link from pictures says the the top is a 8G Pio and the bottom is a 9000 series Philips LCD

I wonder also if they were both calibrated.

On my 1150 the difference between CS1 and CS2 is pretty dramatic when you flip between them.

To me CS2 is hugely better but I'm also sensitive that kind of thing. I had trouble watching my Panasonic plasma because of the poor color.

I'll see what I can do tonight. In the past I haven't had good results photographing TVs.

It's not calibrated, I just used D-Nice's settings. It looks great, I'm not going to bother with calibration. I also don't know if calibration would do much to change the difference between CS1 and CS2.

I'll also try lowering the color saturation after I set it to CS1. That's what you're supposed to do with a color decoder than pushes red, and it might make the problems less obvious.

The important thing to understand with CS2 vs CS1 is that you can't simply 'swap' one color space for another. Other adjustments must be made or you'll get a picture that's too red and colors that are too saturated. The mistake most people make is to make all their adjustments and then simply switch from one CS to another to see which they like better. That's a plan that simply won't work. You need to go into the Color Management adjustments to make CS1 work.

That shot is not a valid comparison of CS2 vs CS1 by any stretch of the imagination. If that's what it looked like after proper adjustment, there's no way I would go with that.

That pic looks like standard or dynamic mode vs a calibrated.

Simply put, using the same setting otherwise, Color Space 1 will yield more vivid colors, i.e. more saturated colors with more lightness.

The problem with this is that if you are to calibrate towards the current standards, with Color Space 1 selected, the colors will be farther from their standard definitions and thus require more "severe" adjustments using the Pioneer Color Management and the Color control to put them in their place.

This is a problem because of the way that the Pioneer implementation of Color Management. The more you move the colors the worse gray scale and gamma tracking you will get as a result.

Therefore, if calibration to standard is a goal, the only pratical choice is IMHO Color Space 2.

PS I shoud add that this experience is from using a 8G Pioneer and only the EU-model.

I completely agree with you. The EU models of 9G all have retained controls for gray scale calibration and the selection between CS 1 and CS 2. Personally, I think it's a shame not to include all controls that very easily could be made available to all models regardless of price point (correct term?).

Likewise the EU models are not as competent as the US models in certain areas for no good reason. I think us consumers need to join forces and start demanding full support from the included software within the limitations of the included hardware - not an intentionally castrated software.

I can accept limitations in the software if there are significant hardware differences between for example non-Elite and Elite. I cannot accept purposeful limitations just to differentiate products to warrant a difference in price - it makes me sick even though I'm a Pioneer fan generally.

PS I also think some general rules should be forced on the market as a whole. You should not be able to call a control something and have it not behave as could be expected from such a control. In Pioneer's case their Color Management is almost a mockery of the name. It's an advanced Hue/Tint control, that's all it is. Yes, I am frustrated about it, hehe.

You have to keep in mind that there are no European Elites, and the displays cost significantly more than the US ones in the UK, the 5090 is equivalent to $5000, and the 6090 is around $9000.


While there aren't "Elites" what areas are they not as competent as the US models?



For what it's worth, on the 5080 I had, Colour Space 1 produced a far better image than Colour Space 2. It may have the primaries somewhat oversaturated (green in particular) however you are able to get luminance correct with it.

In Colour Space 2, saturation was correct, but luminance was far too low, and reds started to clip before you could get colours bright enough.


It's hard to describe exactly what looks wrong about it, but even though I am adverse to oversaturation, the washed-out' or pale' colours that space 2 produces looked worse to my eyes. And it's not that I don't like the lower saturation my DLP projector and my CRTs have gamuts that are all slightly smaller than the HD spec, and I've never felt that they were lacking.


I'd love to see full calibration results from a 9G Pioneer, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's the same situation as last year.

Part of the problem is that a lot of people only seem to look at the CIE charts for determining colour "accuracy" when luminance is just as important as saturation if not more-so.

You seem to be echoing what some other's have said which may explain why Pioneer selected Color Space 1 for the Non-Elites. The idea seems to be to direct the user to use & stay within parameters that have been found to produce the most pleasing PQ for most consumers.

That's not an excuse for removing setting options but it may explain more of the thinking behind the design decision.

Reposting from cnet thread:

http://hdguru.com/first-pioneer-elit...fd-review/252/

Granted, but I still don't understand why you would remove something that they have support for in the hardware. It's not as if it would cost Pioneer something to include the full software. Perhaps I'm wrong about that - happy to be corrected if that's the case.


For example, the Pure A/V mode were not included with 8G Kuros and AFAIK is not included with the 9G. The lack of automation in the software when it comes to the Drive Mode setting in the EU models, i.e. 75 Hz or 100 Hz which you have to select manually for PAL film or video. Should have been detected and selected automatically IMO. There are more that annoyed me, but have slipped my mind right now.


I think that you had some issues with your measurements then. I remeber that I found the same behaviour once, but after investigating I found that it was because of my measurement method where I used video black in betwen measurements and that played havoc with my i1 Display 2/LT results.

I have no problem using CS 2 and the Colour control to adjust the luminance of red to 21.3% of reference white luminance, without running out of red. This is without touching the Pioneer Colour Management.

The only colour that I think looks subjectively better with CS 1 is blue IIRC.


I really can't stand the oversaturated colours of an unadjusted CS 1 and to adjust it you sacrifice grey scale and gamma performance in my experience.


Hehe, I'd love to get my hands on one and have a go myself.


Agreed, the CIE plot only tells part of the story, especially since it doesn't include luminance so you really have to check against your own eyes at all times, but I really haven't had an issue with calibrating very close to correct CIE colours in all three axis and which gives a beautiful image with almost perfect grey scale and gamma tracking. This is of course within the limitations of my hardware used to take measurements with. You cvan only go so far before you start adjusting against errors from the measurement equipment itself when you are using low end equipment.

But IMO that's a biggie. To my eyes the color blue is far more off than the color red in CS1 when properly adjusted in the CMS. There were far too many cases of magenta blue skies that presented a sky color like I've never seen in nature. To me this was always the deal-break and formed my feeling that CS1's presentation (when compensated for in CMS) looked more like real-world colors than CS2. When your eye is able to use something that it already has a baseline for (sky) and the results on-screen so often deviate from that baseline, it detracts from the 'reality' of the image presented.

I know what you mean, but I don't agree with the conclusion that CS 1 therefore is the better choice. Your eyes (read: brain) is far more hardwired to recognize problems with faces and skin tones. This to me is a major problem using CS 1 and requires use of the Pio Color Management to fix, so much so that you get more problems with the total PQ then you do using CS 2. This is IMO of course.

Of course, these points would mostly have been moot if Pioneer had gone the extra mile and provided us with a proper CMS.

That's what the main Color control is for. Adjustments to this control have a far greater effect on the luminance of the colors than on their saturation. I found that the color luminance on the Elite in Color Space 2 was a little low, but turning the Color control up 2 or 3 ticks fixed that problem and had almost no effect on saturation.