*Official* Denon AVR 2309CI/889 Thread - Page 3

Originally Posted by sahmen

Seriously? Are such statements still valid, especially when they involve a comparison with "Made in China" authentic *Denon* products? In other words are you 100 percent certain that the 1909 is an inferior product relative to the higher models simply because it was built in China and not in Japan, even if we're talking about the same company? Is this a fact related to these receivers that can be proven? I want to know because you've just introduced some doubts about the 1909 into my mind, and I want to be sure that those doubts are really justified by proven facts! If they are, then I shall not get the 1909 regardless of how underpriced it gets.

Originally Posted by sahmen

Since no-one has bothered to address the question, let me rephrase it:

Just how important is the "Made in China" vs "Made in Japan" difference when we are talking about the same authentic Denon technology? Is there really something tangible that will weaken or corrupt that technology in China but not in Japan? It seems to me like saying a Toyota or Honda assembled in Japan is superior to one assembled by the same Toyota factory in say New Jersey, or Canada... But just how does one prove such a claim? What is the evidence to support it? Without any proof, it sounds simply like an empty "feel good" myth without any basis in fact that one may repeat out of long habit... But that is not the kind of info one looks for in a *Science* forum... especially when it might actually degrade unnecessarily what appears to be an excellent piece of equipment like the 1909...

Originally Posted by sahmen

I understand the implication that the outsourced product might not match in quality the home-factory-made one The implication may rest on a (founded or unfounded) suspicion that the quality of work in the outsourced foreign factory might be relatively sub-par. Personally, I don't see how it makes a lot of good business sense since producing sub-par products always hurt the name of the corporation no matter where those products are made. It seems like a sure way for a company to shoot itself in the foot in the global market. But let me just say that your statement about "higher priced" models having "slightly better parts" resonates a lot more with me...
Personally, my problem is that deep-down I already know what I want, which is the 2809/989 model, but it is unfortunately going to be outside my budgetary reach for the next 3-6 months... Which is why I'm currently torturing myself trying to decide between three 2nd choice options--the 988, the 1909, or the 2309/889--which are more within my present budgetary range, and yet each of them suffers the totally devastating disadvantage (sarcasm alert!!) of not quite being the almighty 2809/989 Truth be told, I don't even know why I'm so hung up on the 2809/989, except for the fact that I'm trying to upgrade from a 2802, and feel that getting anything below a 28xx/9xx would represent a kind of demotion of the stature of my HT system There is something in my head which is strongly resisting that demotion although in my rational mind, I know it is no demotion at all (My 2802 has 90 watt per channel rating as opposed to the 2309's 100 for pete's sake, so where's the demotion?) So there you have it

By the way, here's another question: Are these July-August price drops on outgoing models such as the current 988's price-drop an annual thing with Denon? Is there any likelihood the 2809/989 will experience a similar price-drop around this time next year or before?

Originally Posted by sahmen

Any pre-order deals on the 889 yet that anyone knows about?

Originally Posted by sahmen

Personally, my problem is that deep-down I already know what I want, which is the 2809/989 model, but it is unfortunately going to be outside my budgetary reach for the next 3-6 months... Which is why I'm currently torturing myself trying to decide between three 2nd choice options--the 988, the 1909, or the 2309/889--which are more within my present budgetary range, and yet each of them suffers the “totally devastating disadvantage” (sarcasm alert!!) of not quite being the “almighty” 2809/989… Truth be told, I don’t even know why I’m so hung up on the 2809/989, except for the fact that I’m trying to upgrade from a 2802, and feel that getting anything below a 28xx/9xx would represent a kind of “demotion” of the stature of my HT system… There is something in my head which is strongly resisting that “demotion” although in my rational mind, I know it is no “demotion” at all (My 2802 has 90 watt per channel rating as opposed to the 2309’s 100 for pete’s sake, so where’s the “demotion”?)… So there you have it…

By the way, here’s another question: Are these July-August price drops on outgoing models such as the current 988’s price-drop an annual thing with Denon? Is there any likelihood the 2809/989 will experience a similar price-drop around this time next year or before?

Originally Posted by ab2ab

Commentary aside, I have an Onkyo 605, Denon 988 and in the coming days, a 1909. We lost thousands of posts recently and there you could have read my impression of Dynamic EQ (featured on my friends 606), and let me tell you, its the real deal. When the 1909 arrives, I will put all the receivers through their paces in my environment and keep one. I'll let you know which one I'll keep and why as soon as I can. And, yes, I will sell the receivers that I'll be parting with.

Originally Posted by foxnews

Made in USA vs Made in Japan is minor. but Made in China vs Made in Japan/USA/Germany is a big deal.

let me ask you again: would you like to have your heart surgery done in China or in USA?

Originally Posted by Elkhunter

Amped:

With your engineering experience with suppliers in China, please explain why Denon moved production from China to Japan, if you can. My 2 year old 2307 was made in China, while my 2309 (due by Friday) is made in Japan, as you posted. Doesn't sound like reduced manufacturing costs and/or improved profit margins to me. How can they possibly build a 2309 for less $$$ in Japan, than China ???

Originally Posted by foxnews

it is common sense. any products made in china for one main reason: cheap labor. what does "cheap labor" mean? cheap labor is not equal to high quality.

if you work in a big coporation producing a sophisticated product, there are many complex processes involved to minimize defects. These processes cost money and it come with high expectation. This kind of expectation is not common in cheap labor market like china. they don't even have basic human right. they don't even have life or product insurance, ect.

let me ask you a simple question: would you rather buy BMW made in Germany or made in China?

if you buy a blastic toy costing $10, then made in china would not matter. but sophisticated products are different stories.

Originally Posted by sahmen

Well, before you misunderstanding me, let me make clear that, I do realize where you're coming from in the stance you take against "Made in China" goods. It's just that I find your view of things a little too simplified: because of the global reach of all these major corporations: 'Made in China" or "Made in Japan" simply means that the final product was assembled in China or Japan... It does not and probably never means that all the parts of the unit were actually "made" in China or Japan... In the long run, there's no way for an ordinary buyer like myself to track down and verify where every single nut, chip, or hardware in my receiver was made before deciding on the soundness of a purchase... It is more simple for me to go with the name "Denon" and trust that the name will ensure I'm getting a quality product, regardless of where the assembly plant of origin happened to be located.

Originally Posted by foxnews

I think you make things "too simplifiled" youself. I DO know that parts can be made some where else, not necessary in China. what I was talking about is the assembly process, Quality Assurance process, testing process used for the "final product".

For example, to meet planned quote, the QA process can pass defective Receivers which could have been failed when inspected in Japan.

No offense, but I don't think you understand the concept of designing, engineering, testing products.

Originally Posted by sahmen

There is nothing said about the "assembly process, quality assurance process, and testing" in the posts of yours that I was responding to. What you actually mentioned was "cheap labor" which you seemed to equate unproblematically with China and inferior quality, as if Japan or the USA simply and unproblematicallyh represented the opposite (i.e. Japan/USA = expensive labor = high quality...) That is what struck me as being simplistic: I thought about American corporations who now exploit labor of prisoners because of its cheapness, and it did not seem to fit too tidily in the above equation at all...

But before things get out of hand, let me just say that you're right about one thing: I'm not an expert in Home Theater Engineering or Design; Neither am I too knowledgable about any technical aspects of the manufacturing process of HT components... I'm just a consumer seeking a few helpful hints and guidelines about technological products I enjoy and might want to purchase; which is why I am visiting this forum in the first place! The visit has already paid off... I have found the info I was looking for... I shall be back for more info when I need it... If you don't mind, let us not turn this into a pointless oneupmanship... Does that work for you?

Originally Posted by RMSko

I had a surprise delivered to my house today! I had pre-ordered the 2309 with J&R and it was delivered today. I actually didn't even know it was delivered until I checked my email and saw the shipping notice - so the notice and the delivery came on the same day. Anyway, it's too late to set it up tonight, but I will definitely be doing so this weekend. It was also a pretty good price - $749, free shipping and no tax.

Originally Posted by mclamais

Is there a good (reputable) online place to get the Denon 2309 for less than full retail?

Originally Posted by batpig

what they are talking about is adjustments you need to make on your subwoofer that that you have disabled anything that may interfere with the Denon and Audyssey. When you are hooked up to the 2309, it is controlling all of the bass management and even sub-EQ'ing (through audyssey), so you don't want your sub doing anything like overlaying it's own low-pass filter or whatever.

do you not have a crossover control on the sub at all? as much as possible, the idea is to defeat any controls on the sub which could mess up the auto setup and let the denon control everything.

the idea with the volume control at the middle is just so it's not blasting when audyssey does its test tones and can set the sub trim at a normal level. you may find this doesn't work in your setup (i.e. if you notice audyssey puts your sub is at -12db and then your mains at +12db, you probably need to turn down the sub a little so audyssey has more "headroom" to balance the channel levels).

Originally Posted by batpig

not much you CAN do.... just set those controls to "0" like you have, and let Audyssey do what it can. you will be stuck with the +/- 12dB limits that the denon proscribes, so hopefully that will be enough headroom for the Audyssey to balance your setup.

ps - if audyssey sets your subwoofer distance all funky, don't try and change it -- it is controlling phase for you by measuring distance using the "acoustic" distance of the sub, which may not be close to the physical distance if the sub isn't in phase with the other speakers. if you turn your phase dial to something else, and re-do audyssey, you will probably get a sub distance off by several feet from the previous settings. both are correct, audyssey should balance it all for you, so set your sub phase at "0" and let it work.

Originally Posted by RMSko

Just look up a few posts - J&R has it for $749, free shipping.

Originally Posted by mclamais

I did before I posted, but I don't see it at $749 anymore. It's now full list.